Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

[trui]

And on the eve of a C-something exam, I’m once again seriously considering introducing Dutch... and dropping the exam altogether... for a few reasons.

Not doing the exam & studying (a)other language(s)
•I don’t like the way I feel leading up to such things - preparation is less than I ideal and i don’t like the idea of being restricted to certain content.
•Do I really need the certificate now?
•My French studying will continue, will the exam change that? (unlikely)
•I would like to study Dutch (obviously)
•Dutch likely to help employment prospects
•increased focus/ decreased boredom due to French time reduced

Passing a C level French exam
•With a C2 I would feel like mission accomplished and able to breathe a little
•I would feel more justified in adding one or more other languages.
•C1/C2 in French is likely to help employment prospects

It's up to you of course, but I couldn't help but think of the parallels. I'm planning on taking the C1 exam for Dutch (there's no C2 exam) after a year of studying Dutch in the Netherlands and I'm not letting myself start a new language until I've done so.

And funnily enough, the language that I'm seriously considering choosing as my third is... French.

[Ani]

And on the eve of a C-something exam, I’m once again seriously considering introducing Dutch... and dropping the exam altogether... for a few reasons.

Not doing the exam & studying (a)other language(s)
•I don’t like the way I feel leading up to such things - preparation is less than I ideal and i don’t like the idea of being restricted to certain content.
•Do I really need the certificate now?
•My French studying will continue, will the exam change that? (unlikely)
•I would like to study Dutch (obviously)
•Dutch likely to help employment prospects
•increased focus/ decreased boredom due to French time reduced

Passing a C level French exam
•With a C2 I would feel like mission accomplished and able to breathe a little
•I would feel more justified in adding one or more other languages.
•C1/C2 in French is likely to help employment prospects

Do it. Drop that exam like a hot potato and go back to Dutch.

a.) The stress of not feeling ready for an exam leading up to it sucks more than the joy of passing
b.) The exam isn't going anywhere and your French isn't getting any worse. There is always next time.
c.) Striving for external validation is a crappy way to live. You (and me both) want that C2, but getting it now or in three years isn't going to change how good your French is/was this November.
d. ) There might even be a risk of slacking too much on French after getting the C2 and back sliding.. crossing a finish line can be quite detrimental to long term habits.

[rdearman]

Just do the exam. Pass or fail you know where you stand with the examinations and you can then determine if you can split your time between French and Dutch or just go full throttle Dutch. Or even better, just take a 3 hour nap each day in lieu of the study time. Personally I recommend the naps.

Also, I would mention that marathon runners before a race cut their training mileage drastically in order to let their bodies repair and to store up energy for the coming marathon. You might want to consider the same before the exam. Cut back on the study, no point cramming at the end. If you haven't internalised it by the end of August you probably aren't going to. So come September you should IMHO have a plan of study with is about an hour per day of REVIEW and not learning new stuff, and a lot of time watching TV, listening to radio, or other activities.

But since I gave up on taking the test; what do I know? But I have to say, the naps are great!

[Cavesa]

And on the eve of a C-something exam, I’m once again seriously considering introducing Dutch... and dropping the exam altogether... for a few reasons.

Not doing the exam & studying (a)other language(s)
•I don’t like the way I feel leading up to such things - preparation is less than I ideal and i don’t like the idea of being restricted to certain content.
•Do I really need the certificate now?
•My French studying will continue, will the exam change that? (unlikely)
•I would like to study Dutch (obviously)
•Dutch likely to help employment prospects
•increased focus/ decreased boredom due to French time reduced

Passing a C level French exam
•With a C2 I would feel like mission accomplished and able to breathe a little
•I would feel more justified in adding one or more other languages.
•C1/C2 in French is likely to help employment prospects

It is so tempting to just let it go. And there are pros, sure. But I'd like to have a look at your list, please tell me if I am overstepping a bit and I apologise in advance (just in case).

-yes, preparation for exams sucks. However, it doesn't mean being restricted to certain content. Looking back at the moment I had decided to take my exam, the opposite followed. I had to leave my comfort zone too and get more varied content. I found a lot of value and pleasure, where I hadn't expected to find it.

-no, you don't need it now. But when you need it, it may be too late to. The window of opportunity may close before you sign up, wait for one of the exam dates (while panicking about hasty preparation), and wait 1-3 months for your certificate.

-You don't need to postpone Dutch completely. You can divide your time wisely and get to do both. And what better way to give yourself permission to finally get to Dutch without remorse, than passing an exam? I agree Dutch could help your employment prospects a lot, I've read some good things about the quality of their healthcare and the work conditions.

-I personally don't think your problem with focus/boredom is caused mainly by the DALF preparation. If this is one of the main reasons for your hesitation, I don't think giving up will change anything, not in the way you expect.

-Would C1 suffice for the "mission accomplished" check? The fact five or so forum members are right now preparing for DALF C2 doesn't mean C1 is any less admirable and worthy of "settling for". If it is of any consolation, I am not planning to take the CPE (English C2) either, as I simply don't think the difference from CAE for my life and career would be big enough to justify all the costs (time, money, efforts).

-Why do you need to feel justified in adding a language or more? You work a lot. A LOT! Having the languages as a hobby is not a problem, I think it could make you happier. I've personally found it easier to have them as a hobby and get good results by the way, than the opposite.

-C1 would suffice for your job prospects. Your French will still shine among the other candidates! Trust me on this And perhaps you'll do the C2 for fun one day, perhaps as a fun challenge during your retirement, or you won't, doesn't matter.

One more thing: as I've been following your logs for some time, I think taking the DALF C1 would be a wiser decision than C2 in your case, even though I have never wanted to discourage you! Why I think reframing your goal and "settling for" C1 might be a good decision:
-C1 is highly useful and respected too, as I've already said.
-you prefer to study with coursebooks and there is much more stuff for C1 than C2
-C2 sounds scary. That's the way we are used to think about it. So, why not opt for C1, that is just one level above your already passed DELF B2.
-You are awesome, I am convinced you can prepare for C1 quite comfortably. I would even bet you are already above B2, half way to C1 (at least).
-If you give yourself a realistic timeframe, you can definitely put more time to Dutch without your French suffering.

[iguanamon]

You will do whatever you want to do, PM. Generally in these type questions, people usually answer their own questions when they pose them. It seems obvious to me that you want to not take the exam because you don't think you are ready and don't really want to do what it takes to get ready.

Improving a language that you already speak at B2 to C1/C2 isn't as rewarding on the curve as taking a language from A0/1 to B2. Advancing to the C levels takes more work for less perceived reward but it's the difference between speaking and writing well enough to be understood to speaking and writing well. Many learners stop at B2 because at that level it's easy to maintain a language.

Personally, I agree with Cavesa. I think you can pass C1. C2 will probably be a bit more of a stretch and require more of an effort. I also agree with what smallwhite has said in the past, that if you can pass C1, you can probably pass C2 as well... maybe not with "flying colors" but a C2 pass is a C2 pass, even if ti's just barely. I think the difference lies in what your perceptions of these levels are and the artificiality of passing a test. What does this mean?

It means that learning how to pass the test, working towards what the examiners are looking for and want to see, well, that is different from achieving C2 first and then demonstrating it. In other words, it's more like "fake it until you make it"... which also means that the mere act of "faking it" means that you will make it.

Several years ago, there was a tv show on ITV 4 in England called "Faking It". It had a premise of taking a person tangentially related with a profession, giving them four weeks training and having them pass as a real professional in a practice exam given by professionals in the field who were told to spot the fake participant. For example, they took a house painter and taught him to be an artist; a hamburger flipper and turned him into a chef; a sensitive young male student became a top London nightclub bouncer, etc. Sure, four weeks training won't make someone an expert in a field, but the participants most often succeeded in fooling the experts and it often changed their lives in a positive way because it showed them that they had abilities that they didn't know they'd had all along.

So, in this case, even though you think you have a lot of work to do to pass C2 and that you aren't there yet (which may be true), the process of preparing for the test and perhaps being able to pass it may bring you there anyway. You'll never know unless you try. I think it would be sad to let this opportunity slip away. If you were just learning French for a hobby, then my advice would be to skip the test and do whatever you want... but... you keep talking about moving and working in French so, that silly piece of paper will open a lot of doors for you.

You only have about four months to go until the test. Dutch will still be there afterwards and you'll get back to your previous level quickly. You'll be a better learner for having had your French experience and hopefully will have learned how to learn better... maybe not do every Dutch course on the planet? (Rocket Dutch- just say no!) Hope springs eternal

[PeterMollenburg]

Can’t recall which month I updated last, here’s the last three:

April: 80 hours 56 min of French

May: 59 hours 51 min.

June: 38 hours 27 min
(had recommenced Dutch and Spanish)

July: 82 hours 32 min
(back to French only)

Thanks for all your kind advice everyone. I have reflected upon it all. I have chosen to continue this exam mission. I don’t believe I can sit C2 at the AF in Melbourne this November by the look of it, as I don’t believe it’s offered this time around, so C1 it is. And not only by default, C1 seems logical. In other words, I agree with some of the advice given, there’s no shame and a good deal of logic in C1 given my current situation.

Some suggested don’t torture myself with this exam prep, and excellent advice it is. But after passing C1, self torture will abruptly decline anyway, and yes, then Dutch can shine.

I’ve excellent resources and although not drastically little time, not a whole heap either. While wise decisions need to be taken, I’ll also follow my motivations an interests, and while I agree with rdearman that an easing off in the short time prior to the exam would be wise, I don’t agree in also backing off new learnings per se. I think this would be the ideal moment to go full steam ahead on not cramming new material, but learning and pushing (perhaps in shorter periods of study) to confine all my French into the exam framework. Thus, in the last month or thereabouts, if I’ve not yet done so at that point, dedicated exam prep will become the majority of my focus. Until then, I’ll keep learning via various avenues and methods.

I predict I’ll pass, but with a lowish overall score, let’s say 67/100.

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I have a list of 32 French courses (not to mention plenty of other courses in other languages), boxes full of books (some massive), dozens of Bien-dire magazines, plenty of series, which aren’t as important to me, meaning I’m much more flexible with these. How to find the time! Were I to choose one course only, it would have to be the complete four books of Cours de Langue et de Civilisation Françaises. For nostalgic reasons, French in Action is runner’s up. The various multiple magazines of Bien-dire are also at the top of my want to do list. As for reading - David Icke’s books, Orwell’s 1984, Ray Bradbury’s Farenheit 451, Aldous Huxley’s Le Meilleur des Mondes (Brave New World), Claire Severac’s (R.I.P. wonder why she’s dead?) La Guerre Secrète Contre les Peuples, Michel Georget’s Vaccinations - Les vérités indésirables... and plenty more. Clearly most of all this is for after the exam.

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Meanwhile Norway/Norwegian continues to tempt: http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20180709-unlike-most-millennials-norways-are-rich?ocid=twcptl

[rdearman]

So when is the fire sale of all of those French courses going to happen?

[PeterMollenburg]

So when is the fire sale of all of those French courses going to happen?

Can’t afford to, at the rate the ‘dumbing-down’ of courses is occurring I must hang on to them for future generations, as even the most basic of courses will be precious in years to come!

[Cavesa]

So when is the fire sale of all of those French courses going to happen?

Can’t afford to, at the rate the ‘dumbing-down’ of courses is occurring I must hang on to them for future generations, as even the most basic of courses will be precious in years to come!

The dumbing down process is not universal, fortunately. There are high quality resources being made, they just don't have so many advertisements, and they are very often not English-target language bilingual. I personally think a person choosing Édito+the Progressive books+any bilingual source for real start would get a rigorous curriculum and a great base to just complement with tons of native input.

I understand why you don't want to sell the books though
Would you post a picture of your French shelves, please? Or at least tell us how long is the row?

[PeterMollenburg]

So when is the fire sale of all of those French courses going to happen?

Can’t afford to, at the rate the ‘dumbing-down’ of courses is occurring I must hang on to them for future generations, as even the most basic of courses will be precious in years to come!

The dumbing down process is not universal, fortunately. There are high quality resources being made, they just don't have so many advertisements, and they are very often not English-target language bilingual. I personally think a person choosing Édito+the Progressive books+any bilingual source for real start would get a rigorous curriculum and a great base to just complement with tons of native input.

I understand why you don't want to sell the books though
Would you post a picture of your French shelves, please? Or at least tell us how long is the row?

True, I agree with your points on say an Édito/ Progressif, -ive series combination, for example. Pix? I don’t have shelves, rather boxes, or ‘tubs’. Sure I can take some pix, but I’ve left more boxes 200 km away at my parents, so it would be incomplete and I really loathe trying to post photos here, messing around with computers beyond my extremely limited knowledge really drives me up the wall.