Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:31 am

Xenops wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:
I used to believe French based resources were the only way to go when learning another language. Unfortunately this limits me. The best way to go is to find the resources that you're most likely to use, most motivated to use, most interesting etc but definitely attempt to use French as a base language by default if possible, but not limit yourself to those only, particularly in NO as there simply aren't enough good language courses from a French base (or at least good ones that I would use). I often use an online dictionary to find Dutch words when speaking to my kids. I first use the French-Dutch dictionary, only if I don't know a French term do I go to the English-French dictionary first (to learn the French word) then translate to Dutch.



Honestly, there's not many good resources for NO in English, either. I'm up to chapter 11 in Mystery of Nils, and it's meh (the audio is pretty bad), I have one grammar book, and I have to rely on Duolingo for sentence practice. :?


While I agree to a certain extent, there's certainly enough to get going. Various Teach Yourself courses, Hugo NO in 3 Months (not a huge fan, but still much better than not doing it, and it does have some strong positives), Learn Norwegian by Sverre Kouman is an excellent NO course imo, but that's coming from a beginner's only made it to chapter 3 perspective. Then there's Colloquial Norwegian, Pimsleur, Hippocrene's Beginner's Norwegian, Learn Norwegian on the Web and Nordmen og Norge which has hours and hours of audio even if it's not great for us teach yourself people (it's designed to be used in a classroom), it's still got a lot of content that you could make use of and marry with other content so you're not so lost. The Mystery of Nils from what I used seems a little over-rated but at least nicely presented and engaging. Yes, great points, spoon fed NO for beginner's but the audio could be both better quality (although I paid for the downloaded audio which is likely better than the streamed version which I didn't like so much) and simply more of it (the vocab lists etc).

I think to make it to B2 with a combination of News, TV, whatever books what might be able to find and the courses listed above is possible. The advanced levels are seemingly trickier to find resources for. Were I to stick to French only, I'd definitely have insufficient content. Adding English as a base language we're at least in a better situation than say iguanamon trying to learn Haitian Creole. There is TY's Learn Norwegian, the second level of Nordmen og Norge and perhaps some other Norwegian based courses out there. Well done btw and making it that far in The Mystery of Nils.... have you got part 2?
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby DaveAgain » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:39 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:
Looks interesting... thank you DaveAgain :) Would you care to provide more of a review, albeit brief if you prefer?
The best known there is 'the power of the powerless', the English text is available online.

The key message there being to 'live in truth', not to participate in what you believe to be untruths. This is the one that made me think of you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power ... _Powerless
https://web.archive.org/web/20120107141 ... l&typ=HTML

The copy I have dates to 1989, Mr Havel went on to be elected president of Czechoslovakia after the collapse of the soviet block. His biography might be more interesting, what does such a man attempt when in a position of power?

https://atlantic-books.co.uk/book/havel/
http://buchetchastel.fr/vaclav-havel-mi ... 2283027196
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby iguanamon » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:36 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:...I used to believe French based resources were the only way to go when learning another language. Unfortunately this limits me. The best way to go is to find the resources that you're most likely to use, most motivated to use, most interesting etc but definitely attempt to use French as a base language by default if possible, but not limit yourself to those only, particularly in NO as there simply aren't enough good language courses from a French base (or at least good ones that I would use). I often use an online dictionary to find Dutch words when speaking to my kids. I first use the French-Dutch dictionary, only if I don't know a French term do I go to the English-French dictionary first (to learn the French word) then translate to Dutch. ...I think to make it to B2 with a combination of News, TV, whatever books what might be able to find and the courses listed above is possible. The advanced levels are seemingly trickier to find resources for. Were I to stick to French only, I'd definitely have insufficient content. Adding English as a base language we're at least in a better situation than say iguanamon trying to learn Haitian Creole. ...

One thing learning an LCSL (less commonly studied language) taught me was to how to use what I have and not lament the lack of "better" resources. The second self-learned language is easier but still hard. Learners of big languages like FIGS (FR; IT; GE; SP) have a plethora of courses to consume and have the luxury of choice. How many beginner French courses/resources are available for French-learners? You'd know, PM, you used a lot of them... is this part of the issue ?

Don't get me wrong. I think what you did with French really solidified your knowledge and use of basic French. Of course, at the time, many of us believed that you were overdoing it by attempting to consume the most beginner level French courses out there of any self-learner of French in history. I often wondered how you would replicate that process with a language outside the FIGS where learning resources and courses are more limited.

When I was first learning HC, I had the advantage of two self-learned languages already. I knew how to learn. You know how to learn too. You can still go through a plethora of Norwegian courses, (I hesitate to mention them as I know you will feel duty bound to go through them all) as you said: TY; Asssimil; Hugo in 3 Months. There's also Colloquial Norwegian; Stein pa Stein (monolingual Norwegian); Norwegian in 10 Minutes a Day; Methode 90; DLI Headstart Norwegian; and other online courses, I'm sure. You also have the advantage of having learned one second language to a high level already, plus your knowledge of Dutch... and your native language, English, which is also close to Norwegian.

I had a look at the Story of Nils. I think as a supplement, alongside a good course, it would be good to use. I would use it if I were learning Norwegian. With these type resources, people's expectations get in the way. Obviously, using this resource as a sole resource will not teach a learner the language. Using it alongside a good course; grammar; dictionary... then it has its place. When I was learning HC, I used a story for fifth grade students (11-12 yrs old) about a fictional raindrop's voyage to the Everglades alongside my course. I had the English and Spanish versions of the 17 page (letter/A1 size pages) story. I made my own bilingual text. I had a bilingual dictionary in pdf. I would go through the story and try to parse it sentence by sentence (this was after seven or eight lessons). I put it on my tablet and could easily swipe over to the English to confirm my guesses. I could also look up the word and make notes on the L2 side. Basically, I made my own Assimil. I didn't need audio. Fortunately, HC is easier to pronounce and is written phonetically (as opposed to French). I also used Genesis, in the Beginning (pun intended). The translation I have is recent, within the past 20 years. Genesis has basic language.

The first real book I read in HC was Robinson Crusoe, Woben Lakwa. There was a study guide, exercises and notes online from a university class that taught the book too. I had and have plenty of resources to use to learn the language to a high level.

I see people here often recommending "laddering"- using L2 to learn L3. I've done this sometimes. It didn't work for me with more similar languages as it kept pointing out how the language I had self-learned differed from the language I was learning so much, that it was making me see L3 through an L2 prism. While a full knowledge of L2 is not needed to ladder (I haven't even studied French but I'm using it in a Catalan course), it helps to have at least B2. Ex: Today I came across "fer campana" in my Catalan course. The Assimil French translation was "séchér de course". I had to look it up. It means to skip or miss school. The French Assimil asks me to translate from French and fill in the missing gaps with Catalan. I can mostly do this, but I am sure as I get further along in the course this will become more difficult. PM won't have this problem, but others with a less high level of French will have more problems.

So, PM, ultimately, I think you can still use your tried and true method of course, course, course. You just won't have anywhere near as many courses to get through! Maybe just three or four, this time ;) . You have enough to learn Norwegian even with one course, though this means that you'd have to use native materials to help you learn. Fortunately there is plenty available with which to make your own study materials, such as your own bilingual texts. You will find your way.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Carmody » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:29 am

Peter

When you list your French learning materials you usually leave out Bien-Dire. Why is that? I subscribed to it at your suggestion and find it very useful. Do you just not use it any more?
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:58 am

Carmody wrote:Peter

When you list your French learning materials you usually leave out Bien-Dire. Why is that? I subscribed to it at your suggestion and find it very useful. Do you just not use it any more?


Hi Carmody,

I'm not sure which list you might be referring to or whether you weren't specifically referring to one list.... I have mentioned Bien-dire sprinkled throughout my log (at least I think I have). In my experience it's excellent for acquiring vocabulary, especially more advanced vocabulary and idioms in one condensed resource. By 'condensed' I mean as opposed to reading a ton of books and acquiring vocabulary that way - but reading books has other awesome advantages. Language courses simply don't cut it for learning sufficient amounts of rarer/advanced vocabulary and idioms, generally speaking but they also have their advantages. I had enough of SRS apps/programs such as Anki, although to be fair they are tools to reinforce what you come across in other resources and not a source of vocabulary in itself....

I personally find Bien-dire great for vocabulary acquisition (actually I'd say that it's good at all levels as there is a beginner's level magazine as well as a more advanced publication, which I use) which I do by studying the word lists (French-English word lists) covering up one side and translating until I get all the words correct, then translating in the other direction until all correct, then in both directions, again without erorrs... and of course reading the articles. Sometimes I used the audio, but actually that's not that often and I have considered not bothering purchasing the audio at times when I have renewed my subscription. It's awesome for intensive reading - you can just read and look across at the word lists for translations. I personally also really enjoy it as there's plenty of culturally relevant topics across a diversity of subjects related to the francophone world.

I think I've said all this before and yet you didn't even ask me that. So, yes I'm definitely still using Bien-dire and it is one of my favourite resources. It's not appeared in my 'immersive list' as I use it during desk (focused) study periods. It's not ever appeared in my course lists as I don't see it as a course. I think at this stage in my learning had I had to choose ONE course only, but Bien-dire included, I'd choose Bien-dire hands down as I mentioned, none of the courses can cover the vast array of diverse vocab covered in these magazines. In fact, I would perhaps even choose it over my collection of books because I can read from the magazines extensively as well were I feeling so inclined. I think currently it's the on a par with my book collection as the single most useful resource (although I do have a large collection of several years worth now of the magazines and I've only scraped the surface, thus there remains plenty more to be learned within it's pages).

I'm glad to hear you're enjoying Bien-dire, Carmody! ;)
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:38 am

DaveAgain wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:
Looks interesting... thank you DaveAgain :) Would you care to provide more of a review, albeit brief if you prefer?
The best known there is 'the power of the powerless', the English text is available online.

The key message there being to 'live in truth', not to participate in what you believe to be untruths. This is the one that made me think of you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power ... _Powerless
https://web.archive.org/web/20120107141 ... l&typ=HTML

The copy I have dates to 1989, Mr Havel went on to be elected president of Czechoslovakia after the collapse of the soviet block. His biography might be more interesting, what does such a man attempt when in a position of power?

https://atlantic-books.co.uk/book/havel/
http://buchetchastel.fr/vaclav-havel-mi ... 2283027196


Thank you DaveAgain, I appreciate the time taken to provide the above information. I will retain the above on my 'potentials' list ;)
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:24 am

iguanamon wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:...I used to believe French based resources were the only way to go when learning another language. Unfortunately this limits me. The best way to go is to find the resources that you're most likely to use, most motivated to use, most interesting etc but definitely attempt to use French as a base language by default if possible, but not limit yourself to those only, particularly in NO as there simply aren't enough good language courses from a French base (or at least good ones that I would use). I often use an online dictionary to find Dutch words when speaking to my kids. I first use the French-Dutch dictionary, only if I don't know a French term do I go to the English-French dictionary first (to learn the French word) then translate to Dutch. ...I think to make it to B2 with a combination of News, TV, whatever books what might be able to find and the courses listed above is possible. The advanced levels are seemingly trickier to find resources for. Were I to stick to French only, I'd definitely have insufficient content. Adding English as a base language we're at least in a better situation than say iguanamon trying to learn Haitian Creole. ...

One thing learning an LCSL (less commonly studied language) taught me was to how to use what I have and not lament the lack of "better" resources. The second self-learned language is easier but still hard. Learners of big languages like FIGS (FR; IT; GE; SP) have a plethora of courses to consume and have the luxury of choice. How many beginner French courses/resources are available for French-learners? You'd know, PM, you used a lot of them... is this part of the issue ?


There's no issue, and I don't mean that in an arrogant way. I just don't think there's an issue. There are indeed sufficient resources at the earlier stages for learning Norwegian and if after you've gone through a pretty hefty list in itself of the courses I've mentioned, if you can't transition to native content well then, there's not much hope for you, I think.... or perhaps you're a clone of my former self and think you're going to die without more beginner's Norwegian resources.

iguanamon wrote:Don't get me wrong. I think what you did with French really solidified your knowledge and use of basic French. Of course, at the time, many of us believed that you were overdoing it by attempting to consume the most beginner level French courses out there of any self-learner of French in history. I often wondered how you would replicate that process with a language outside the FIGS where learning resources and courses are more limited.


If I look back at my over-use of French beginner's courses I have some reflections to make. I've reflected before, but here I am it's another day and I've ventured a little further down the path of experience in learning languages. I appreciate the respect I had afforded me once I did well on the B2 exam which surprised some people perhaps. I didn't so much appreciate at times (while I did at other times) the plethora of 'where's your native content' speels I received in the beginning and that meant some things- I should've just done all the language courses and not touched native content for a good deal of time and THEN introduced native content. I think I just didn't realise how long the path was. Mind you, by the same token, I certainly DID NOT realise how important native content was, I was naive to the extent that I thought one or a few language courses would have me understanding native content without issue. Boy was I wrong! So yes, the concerns were valid BUT I should've pursued with the courses and not waivered (into native content) and THEN switched to native content down the track.

The other thing is, I have realised that I needed to use the courses, and lots of them to work on my pronunciation. I would not be comfortable using native content for this - this is where courses for me are awesome (as well as learning early vocabulary and grammar). For Norwegian this is going to be necessary due to tones in particular as well as some tricky aspects of Norwegian pronunciation. I think if the pronunciation of a language was more straightforward, then the switch/ transition to native content would be able to happen quicker for me, if I wanted it to (or had not choice) as I'd be more comfortable with the transition. I'm happy to read Spanish books to my kids for example (although I don't do it currently), but I am not comfortable at all doing that in Norwegian, and working my way through courses would eliminate this. Yes I've studied some Spanish before, but the key issue is I don't feel comfortable pronouncing Norwegian words correctly without further study, for which courses are the best method for me.

iguanamon wrote:When I was first learning HC, I had the advantage of two self-learned languages already. I knew how to learn. You know how to learn too. You can still go through a plethora of Norwegian courses, (I hesitate to mention them as I know you will feel duty bound to go through them all) as you said: TY; Asssimil; Hugo in 3 Months. There's also Colloquial Norwegian; Stein pa Stein (monolingual Norwegian); Norwegian in 10 Minutes a Day; Methode 90; DLI Headstart Norwegian; and other online courses, I'm sure. You also have the advantage of having learned one second language to a high level already, plus your knowledge of Dutch... and your native language, English, which is also close to Norwegian.


I can definitely understand your hesitation to mention certain courses, but I must say, second or third language I'll likely be much more comfortable culling courses from my lists. I looke at Stein pa Stein and felt it wasn't necessary for example. DLI Headstart NO doesn't interest me (I did the French Headstart for Belgium course and it's not the style of course I'd do again unless it filled a very particular gap that another course couldn't fill better). Norwegian in 10 minutes a day sounds dubious, however I'm keen on Pimsleur level 2 (I only have level 1) and hippocrene simple because they are great audio courses that can be useful on commutes and fill a gap. In fact there's not enough decent audio only based Norwegian courses and I feel Pimsleur is excellent for training pronunciation while commuting. I do not believe Méthode 90 for Norwegian exists. If it does, I'd be looking for it, since Assimil Le Norvégien is the only French based course I currently own. So, yeah there is a lot of truth in what you say, but I'd also cut back the courses as I have learned from experience. Nevertheless, I derive a good deal of motivation from completing courses, as we know.

iguanamon wrote:I had a look at the Story of Nils. I think as a supplement, alongside a good course, it would be good to use. I would use it if I were learning Norwegian. With these type resources, people's expectations get in the way. Obviously, using this resource as a sole resource will not teach a learner the language. Using it alongside a good course; grammar; dictionary... then it has its place. When I was learning HC, I used a story for fifth grade students (11-12 yrs old) about a fictional raindrop's voyage to the Everglades alongside my course. I had the English and Spanish versions of the 17 page (letter/A1 size pages) story. I made my own bilingual text. I had a bilingual dictionary in pdf. I would go through the story and try to parse it sentence by sentence (this was after seven or eight lessons). I put it on my tablet and could easily swipe over to the English to confirm my guesses. I could also look up the word and make notes on the L2 side. Basically, I made my own Assimil. I didn't need audio. Fortunately, HC is easier to pronounce and is written phonetically (as opposed to French). I also used Genesis, in the Beginning (pun intended). The translation I have is recent, within the past 20 years. Genesis has basic language.

The first real book I read in HC was Robinson Crusoe, Woben Lakwa. There was a study guide, exercises and notes online from a university class that taught the book too. I had and have plenty of resources to use to learn the language to a high level.


This all sounds quite logical to me ;) And indeed you deserve a lot of respect for the hard work you have done to accomplish this.

iguanamon wrote:I see people here often recommending "laddering"- using L2 to learn L3. I've done this sometimes. It didn't work for me with more similar languages as it kept pointing out how the language I had self-learned differed from the language I was learning so much, that it was making me see L3 through an L2 prism. While a full knowledge of L2 is not needed to ladder (I haven't even studied French but I'm using it in a Catalan course), it helps to have at least B2. Ex: Today I came across "fer campana" in my Catalan course. The Assimil French translation was "séchér de course". I had to look it up. It means to skip or miss school. The French Assimil asks me to translate from French and fill in the missing gaps with Catalan. I can mostly do this, but I am sure as I get further along in the course this will become more difficult. PM won't have this problem, but others with a less high level of French will have more problems.

So, PM, ultimately, I think you can still use your tried and true method of course, course, course. You just won't have anywhere near as many courses to get through! Maybe just three or four, this time ;) . You have enough to learn Norwegian even with one course, though this means that you'd have to use native materials to help you learn. Fortunately there is plenty available with which to make your own study materials, such as your own bilingual texts. You will find your way.


Thanks iguanamon for stopping by. Yeah, I'm sure I'll work it out, and I'm pretty comfortable with things, I guess, but always looking for improvement. Although, a late thought, I must add that Norwegian could have some better or improved courses containing more phonetic transcriptions and tones. I certainly appreciate the reflections and input from other people on the forum, both those experienced learners like yourself who provide invaluable lessons and input and beginner's, because who knows, just because you're a beginner doesn't mean you can't reflect on an experienced learner's methods and offer some input or reflections...

Throw a square tomato over your sixth knee! For realz, I mean how me knees have you got? I've got like... 17, give or take 15

Edit:
French was the language I perhaps procrastinated on the most. In this stage which lasted on and off for several years, I kept collecting courses. Finallly once I got down to business my perfectionist attitude kicked in and I was thinking *$!^ this! I'm going to do all the courses! And since quite a good deal of them are high quality resources, I was lured into the French web... It's not my fault!!! :lol:

I definitely had purchased far too many French courses over the years (while I don't regret the study I have done and the courses I have completed). I have collected resources in another languages, but none copped it more than French. I have too many Dutch courses as well, but much less than French... and Spanish a few too many. For German, it's not really an issue and for Norwegian pretty reasonable (curently).... You see... I'm becoming normal dammit!
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:11 am

Lots of posts today...

Today was a better day of learning.

French desk study:
42 minutes of extensive reading: 1984 - George Orwell. Can you believe I'm finally reading it!
40 minutes Bien-dire vocabulary/intensive reading
40 minutes more extensive reading: 1984

Dutch reading with the kids (today was a 'Dutch day')
90 minutes of Dutch stories
(+ 10 minutes of a French story).

Now I'm looking for sth to watch in French....

Just ordered a few more French books for extensive reading.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Carmody » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:58 pm

Peter,

Many thanks for your very comprehensive reply; most appreciated.

And yes, I totally agree when you say:
In my experience it's excellent for acquiring vocabulary, especially more advanced vocabulary and idioms in one condensed resource.

It is curious that we both find it so useful, but that it is never mentioned by other people or in other places.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Xenops » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:27 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:
Xenops wrote:Honestly, there's not many good resources for NO in English, either. I'm up to chapter 11 in Mystery of Nils, and it's meh (the audio is pretty bad), I have one grammar book, and I have to rely on Duolingo for sentence practice. :?


While I agree to a certain extent, there's certainly enough to get going. Various Teach Yourself courses, Hugo NO in 3 Months (not a huge fan, but still much better than not doing it, and it does have some strong positives), Learn Norwegian by Sverre Kouman is an excellent NO course imo, but that's coming from a beginner's only made it to chapter 3 perspective. Then there's Colloquial Norwegian, Pimsleur, Hippocrene's Beginner's Norwegian, Learn Norwegian on the Web and Nordmen og Norge which has hours and hours of audio even if it's not great for us teach yourself people (it's designed to be used in a classroom), it's still got a lot of content that you could make use of and marry with other content so you're not so lost. The Mystery of Nils from what I used seems a little over-rated but at least nicely presented and engaging. Yes, great points, spoon fed NO for beginner's but the audio could be both better quality (although I paid for the downloaded audio which is likely better than the streamed version which I didn't like so much) and simply more of it (the vocab lists etc).

I think to make it to B2 with a combination of News, TV, whatever books what might be able to find and the courses listed above is possible. The advanced levels are seemingly trickier to find resources for. Were I to stick to French only, I'd definitely have insufficient content. Adding English as a base language we're at least in a better situation than say iguanamon trying to learn Haitian Creole. There is TY's Learn Norwegian, the second level of Nordmen og Norge and perhaps some other Norwegian based courses out there. Well done btw and making it that far in The Mystery of Nils.... have you got part 2?


But PM, you must understand: I want a French in Action course, but for Norwegian. :lol: Or at least a Genki equivalent, with its tons of exercises and (good) audio content.

I suppose I'm disappointed because of the high praise for the Nils course, and and the publisher calling it a "complete course". Mmm...No. I'm not sure if I'll get the second volume: the "mystery" hasn't enthralled me yet.

One site I will make use of is this one from NTNU: https://www.ntnu.edu/now/

iguanamon wrote:
I had a look at the Story of Nils. I think as a supplement, alongside a good course, it would be good to use. I would use it if I were learning Norwegian. With these type resources, people's expectations get in the way. Obviously, using this resource as a sole resource will not teach a learner the language. Using it alongside a good course; grammar; dictionary... then it has its place. When I was learning HC, I used a story for fifth grade students (11-12 yrs old) about a fictional raindrop's voyage to the Everglades alongside my course. I had the English and Spanish versions of the 17 page (letter/A1 size pages) story. I made my own bilingual text. I had a bilingual dictionary in pdf. I would go through the story and try to parse it sentence by sentence (this was after seven or eight lessons). I put it on my tablet and could easily swipe over to the English to confirm my guesses. I could also look up the word and make notes on the L2 side. Basically, I made my own Assimil. I didn't need audio. Fortunately, HC is easier to pronounce and is written phonetically (as opposed to French). I also used Genesis, in the Beginning (pun intended). The translation I have is recent, within the past 20 years. Genesis has basic language.



Yes, I can see it as a supplement, like a graded reader. :) I was able to find the audio book for the New Testament from a Norwegian site, and I found the corresponding hard-copy on Amazon:

https://www.bokkilden.no/det-nye-testamente/det-nye-testamentet-svein-erik-brodal/produkt.do?produktId=2762835

https://www.amazon.com/Norwegian-testamentet-Bibelselskap-Ordforklaringer-Oversettelse/dp/8254106371/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=Norwegian+New+Testament+Orange&qid=1596601522&sr=8-2
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