Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Cavesa
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Re: PM’s Full Throttle Face Off vs Flat-out, Flat-stick, Fully sick French Till Mid Nov 2018 Exam(s)

Postby Cavesa » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:01 pm

And this log becomes rather philosophical. I've almost got lost and missed the great post from Tue Jul 10

Course work/grammar focus

I'm back working through Practise Makes Perfect - The Subjunctive Up Close, and as is usually the case, I'm working through this material ten times slower than any 'ordinary' person, but hey, whatever. There's certainly a lot to take in with regards to the subjunctive and if there is any gaps in my French this is one of them - I am pretty good for the most part, but I could certainly improve.

So, I'm currently aiming for C2 in November, but i'm yet to have my level properly assessed, or doing any serious self assessment. I am also yet to do any writing or speaking (although I had an opportune moment yesterday with a French speaking patient, which was nice). I'm continuing with Glossika while driving as well, aiming to get through the whole thing that way. At least this way I'm doing drills in a fashion that have me focus on my speaking ability. As for exam prep materials, they are waiting for me and they will happen, but right now, the routine I have I'm comfortable with.


There is no such a thing as "the pace of an ordinary person". No learner is just ordinary. The fact teachers and coursebooks try to enforce some pace doesn't mean most people manage to learn the stuff in time, or that others are not ok well before the "deadline". You may be taking your time, and finding your progress slow, but I think it will pay off later on :-)

I am extremely curious about your exam!!! And I wish you the best possible level and results.

P.S. No, we don't all think alike at all. It just looks like that on the surface. When you get into the situation, where agreement on the really important things matters, you'll find out how different we are. I had another lesson on this earlier today and it had a profound and not positive impact. So, if you are worried we are all alike, don't be. But if you are convinced we should all think more, I wholeheartedly agree. I wish I could write prescriptions on more thinking. :-D
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Re: PM’s Full Throttle Face Off vs Flat-out, Flat-stick, Fully sick French Till Mid Nov 2018 Exam(s)

Postby rdearman » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:46 pm

Sorry Peter. There is too much noise and I cannot find what your actual plan is at the moment. I thought your last examination was to pass the B2 examination? I thought you were going to try and pass a C1 examination, however I'm now seeing references to C2. Did I miss something? Did you pass a C1 exam and I didn't read it?
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Re: PM’s Full Throttle Face Off vs Flat-out, Flat-stick, Fully sick French Till Mid Nov 2018 Exam(s)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:02 am

rdearman wrote:Sorry Peter. There is too much noise and I cannot find what your actual plan is at the moment. I thought your last examination was to pass the B2 examination? I thought you were going to try and pass a C1 examination, however I'm now seeing references to C2. Did I miss something? Did you pass a C1 exam and I didn't read it?


Nothing missed, B2 I passed last year (I think? :?) and of late I was just building in confidence and thinking I might skip C1 altogether and go straight for the C2 (November this year). Although, of late my confidence is taking a little dive again, as I find there are so many words and expressions I am unfamiliar with from the book Globalia by Jean-Christophe Rufin that I’m likely kidding myself re: C2. Consequently, I’ve taken it upon myself to do more extensive reading, after all reading was my weakest or second weakest skill in the B2 exam.

Also, I see no mention of C2 exam dates in my city, while all other levels are mentioned (I ought to ask them tomorrow when I take my daughter in for her French class at the Alliance Française). Still, for what time remains I’m going to up my hours of French, severely.

Edit: Btw, well done on your French presentation! And, I’m glad to see you’re continuing with French!
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Re: PM’s Full Throttle Face Off vs Flat-out, Flat-stick, Fully sick French Till Mid Nov 2018 Exam(s)

Postby Ani » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:21 am

What's your assessment of Glossika at your level? I tested at B2 Glossika online (which appears to be the top) so theoretically the sentences would be the more complex they offer, but I'm still afraid it's a waste of time. OTOH, my speaking is the skili í #1 want to improve so Glossika, FSI, etc is probably a decent idea? Idk.. I could do it in the same type of time slot I'm currently listening to non-challenging podcasts. Hitting play on Glossika is a touch easier than getting in and out on FSI
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Re: PM’s Full Throttle Face Off vs Flat-out, Flat-stick, Fully sick French Till Mid Nov 2018 Exam(s)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:33 am

Ani wrote:What's your assessment of Glossika at your level? I tested at B2 Glossika online (which appears to be the top) so theoretically the sentences would be the more complex they offer, but I'm still afraid it's a waste of time.


I haven’t had my level assessed with Glossika, is it an easy enough process? That reminds me, I really ought do another dialang test soon and test myself against other relevant exam prep materials such as audio smallwhite has cited. So much to do, so little time, and too much time-wasting as well!

I’m using an older version of Glossika. It’s good for in the car, as it tests and improves productive skills, as a listen, respond, imitate type thing. It’s not hard, but it does iron out some creases perhaps and assist in developing automaticity, like many audio programs do. I don’t bother writing, I don’t care for it with regards to Glossika, that I feel, would not be spending my time wisely. Overall though, Glossika doesn’t overly impress me, because there is too many errors, which worries me somewhat, as some phrases I’m not familiar with could become fossilized errors, unknowingly. That’s simply not good enough in my opinion, and enough to make me decline recommending it. Whether the newer material is improved upon or not, I can only hope so.

Ani wrote:OTOH, my speaking is the skili í #1 want to improve so Glossika, FSI, etc is probably a decent idea? Idk.. I could do it in the same type of time slot I'm currently listening to non-challenging podcasts. Hitting play on Glossika is a touch easier than getting in and out on FSI


Yeah that’s a good plan, I think. Any audio based programs, or drills you can use in such a manner will help improve your speaking in terms of pronunciation and automaticity, however it’s rather easy material of limited range vocabulary. I would imagine listening, reading and shadowing things like News in Slow French and RFI - Journal en français facile, or Buffy (i.e. sth with audio and transcripts) would help broaden one’s vocab beyond what FSI, Glossika and the like can do. Additionally, I think reading extensively regularly helps the language swirl around in one’s head until one day during conversations you find yourself digging up phrases from the back of your mind you didn’t know you knew.
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Re: PM’s Full Throttle Face Off vs Flat-out, Flat-stick, Fully sick French Till Mid Nov 2018 Exam(s)

Postby Cavesa » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:11 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:
rdearman wrote:Sorry Peter. There is too much noise and I cannot find what your actual plan is at the moment. I thought your last examination was to pass the B2 examination? I thought you were going to try and pass a C1 examination, however I'm now seeing references to C2. Did I miss something? Did you pass a C1 exam and I didn't read it?


Nothing missed, B2 I passed last year (I think? :?) and of late I was just building in confidence and thinking I might skip C1 altogether and go straight for the C2 (November this year). Although, of late my confidence is taking a little dive again, as I find there are so many words and expressions I am unfamiliar with from the book Globalia by Jean-Christophe Rufin that I’m likely kidding myself re: C2. Consequently, I’ve taken it upon myself to do more extensive reading, after all reading was my weakest or second weakest skill in the B2 exam.

Also, I see no mention of C2 exam dates in my city, while all other levels are mentioned (I ought to ask them tomorrow when I take my daughter in for her French class at the Alliance Française). Still, for what time remains I’m going to up my hours of French, severely.

Edit: Btw, well done on your French presentation! And, I’m glad to see you’re continuing with French!


I don't think there is too much of a difference in the expected level of fluency and accuracy between the DALF C1 and C2. I had originally planned a C1 too. I was recommended the C2 because of my very good speaking skills (yes, I owe that to the tv series :-D ) and I was also finding the exam format a bit easier for me. Being graded on each of the four skills separately and being graded on two pairs of skills, that is different and I think it is partially about the personal preference. And I also think the rules of the genres demanded for writing were a bit loser for the C2 but I am not sure about that, I'd need to search in my old logs that included the fresh memories.

It sounds weird, I know. There is the notion of C2 being soooo much more difficult than anything bellow that and I suppose it is usually true. But the format of the exam is changing this a little bit.

It is true that not all the AF organise a C2 exam every time but sometimes, it helps to directly ask for it. Should you be lucky enough to be one of several candidates, I guess they may add a C2 to the other exams. Or perhaps even for a single candidate, I don't know. Back when I sat the exam, there were three of us for the C2, so we are in general taken for rare animals.

But it looks like half this community is preparing for DALF C2 now!
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Re: PM’s Full Throttle Face Off vs Flat-out, Flat-stick, Fully sick French Till Mid Nov 2018 Exam(s)

Postby Ani » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:53 pm

The Glossika online assessment doesn't really test you as much as it's a self assessment. It gives a sentence (I think audio only but now I can't remember) and you need to click the translation but obviously that's not reflective of your true level. You can try it free online if you want.

Ok I'm going to stick with FSI. I don't know why I got tempted away lol. I am getting the Glossika French via Italian which I shouldn't be doing but I am anyway...

My problem speaking isn't really pulling phrases or vocab but applied grammar. The vocab/expressions come to mind and I need to actively juggle it to make everything fit together. It's possible I just need to talk to adults more.. or study more grammar...
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Re: PM’s Full Throttle Face Off vs Flat-out, Flat-stick, Fully sick French Till Mid Nov 2018 Exam(s)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:36 am

Ani wrote:The Glossika online assessment doesn't really test you as much as it's a self assessment. It gives a sentence (I think audio only but now I can't remember) and you need to click the translation but obviously that's not reflective of your true level. You can try it free online if you want.

Ok I'm going to stick with FSI. I don't know why I got tempted away lol. I am getting the Glossika French via Italian which I shouldn't be doing but I am anyway...

My problem speaking isn't really pulling phrases or vocab but applied grammar. The vocab/expressions come to mind and I need to actively juggle it to make everything fit together. It's possible I just need to talk to adults more.. or study more grammar...


I just started Glossika Fluency 2 the last couple of days, as opposed to Fluency 1. I must say, the bar in the first two tracks (not so much, or at all, the 3rd and 4th tracks - i haven't gone beyond there), but raised simply because I released that, although I hear the passive very frequently, read it as well, I don't actively use it much at all. These first two tracks on repeat for a while helped. I still feel that Glossika (as far as the older version goes - I'm using "French Fluency 1,2,3") has too many negatives, but not enough to turn me off it completely. It's been useful and I may find that by the time I get to Fluency 3, that it really is indeed worthwhile. The other two tracks I mentioned helping activite the passive tense somewhat for me, is very worthwhile in itself, for the very small amount of passive tense that exposes me to compared to the amount of verbs out there in the real world. However, I heard "verres fumés" as a translation for sunglasses in one passage. I'm 90% convinced that that is not what French people say. All my dictionaries state "lunettes de soleil", which I've been well aware of for years. Verres fumés sounds more like tinted windows on a car to me. I'm 99.9% convinced that, if the term can be used, that it is highly unlikely to be at all common anywhere in the French speaking world, or my dictionaries would've at least brought it up as an alternative, right? :?

So, FSI and Glossika both seem worthwhile at this stage (i've not completed either course). I've probably made my way roughly through about the same percentage of each course (i'm not using FSI currently and haven't done for some time). I intend to complete Glossika Fluency 1,2,3, but only via audio - repeating the GMS sentences, so no writing, no other files, this will suffice. Out of the two courses FSI i guess has the draw back of being formal, whereas Glossika has the drawback of containing errors. I think I'd still recommend FSI, even though, it's very formal and audio quality low at times. Errors in Glossika again make me hesitate in recommending it. Still, for me, I think I am better off completing Glossika than not. Along the way however I probably will instill the odd error, but i'm sure it won't destroy my French overall, as I'm at a decent enough level to notice some odd translations, such as the one mentioned above.

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General talk now...
I"m falling in love with Assimil. I was thinking if I had my time over, I'd focus solely on different versions of Assimil for each language (older versions for the same language, different levels, different base languages). I took it upon myself lately to read two lessons of Assimil NFWE each evening and one lesson of Assimil Using French. I've been doing this every night before bed, and reading the same lessons upon waking each morning. It's nice that the material is familiar now, having completed both, but not so familiar that I wouldn't benefit from another 'wave', if you will. I read through the French initially, but then translate while looking at the English and speaking French. Anyway, I love the Assimil courses, and they have definitely risen to the peak of my mountain of French courses. There are other great courses out there, but something about these little packed courses has me feeling replete ;) Perhaps it's the short lessons, the grammar not being overburdening (otherwise, me being me, i'd bury myself and lose myself in details). They're versatile courses with plenty of different editions over the years, different levels and different base languages to entice me further. The fact that I could learn Spanish from a Dutch base, French base, German base I think, Italian as well, maybe even Portuguese, has me wanderlusting even though I have a mountain of high quality Spanish resources. Well, at least I have three different Assimil Dutch courses on hand to look forward to (edit: four! I just dug up Dutch Without Toil from some digital files I was yet to sort, wohoo an extra 132 lessons! Now I have Dutch with Ease - the original dates I think from 1978 but I have a newer book with same content, Dutch Without Toil from 1979, Le Néerlandais from 2011 and La Pratique du Neérlandais - advanced level, from 1978), and even two more in French to try out (Business French, it's a shame they no longer sell this one, and French without Toil). I'm enamoured (such a nerd). :P

My other equally favourite resource is "Bien-dire", which isn't a course. If every language had the same publication, a combination of Assimil and Bien-dire would suit me nicely. Santa, you listening, tell those publishers in Lyon to expand their range!

And what have I been up to? I think I've come to the conclusion that I simply cannot up the anté with my French study hours. I was attempting (fantasizing) about doing four hours a day desk study. It's just not possible unless I ignore too many other things. Three hours is possible at a stretch if I remain regimented in my daily routine, and being so, can still exercise.

I didn't go into the Alliance Française last week, my wife went instead, so I'm not sure yet whether I can sit a C2 in November. Mind you, I'm still waxing and waning with regards to my level, and never find/make the time to get some decent feedback (dialang etc).

I've commenced watching the Tour de France in French and it's taking up all my desk study time. But I've kinda thought, it won't matter- I enjoy it because of the sport, the tour through the French countryside (I often look up towns and villages along the way), and my nephew and father are both very keen cyclist. It doesn't hurt my listening to hear French continuously, especially since I rarely watch sport in any language these days, and it will help my own enthusiasm for exercise of which i'm not doing enough lately.

On a side note it's great to be able to go cycling (albeit it's cold here being winter) and listen to French with the bone conducting headphones and still hear traffic noise for safety reasons, and kayak with my underwater ipod set-up, which is waterproof.

Actually on that note, much of my French comes from time away from my desk these days, driving around at work in the new job, hooking up my phone with Glossika or podcasts, commuting to my other job, kayaking and cycling as mentioned, reading lots to my daughter, TV news here and there, TV shows here and there, watching the Tour even is something I'd normally do each year in English. Don't tell me anything about Le Tour btw, as I've only just finished watching the first stage! I've been too busy and the fact that I have to watch the entire stage (which isn't so bad really) as opposed to highlights of an hour really put me behind. Looking things up online is 9/10 done in French too. If i'm lazy or rebelling against my own rule, I might go for English on the odd occasion, but generally, even if I don't know the term in French, I'll find out then search it. That includes medical things at times while at work, and usually no problems at all understanding. I still do not think I'm C2 though. Maybe I am C1, but I'm certainly weak when it comes to the exam formats.

My fluidity and pace of my French reading is improving over time but mainly from the children's stories I read to my daughter out loud, as I'm not getting enough time at my desk to get into my routine there, which includes extensive reading ("Globalia" lately). So, Globalia still feels challenging, as there's plenty of words and terminology I simply do not know.

Anyway enough dribble today, so tired too! Too much on yesterday that I couldn't get to sleep until perhaps 2300 and had to wake before 0600. Needless to say, my stolen moments today when the kids needed a nap resulted in my constant dozing off during the second stage of the Tour.

Throw a steak at your future self's face and make him/her eat it. That's what I'm sayin...

Okay so back to Assimil. Earlier today I couldn't help but look in wanderlust at Norwegian, Occitan, Breton, Arabic, Spanish, German, Basque, Corsican courses...

I read a book today (or most of it) to my daughter I bought in Nouvelle Calédonie when we were there in November. It's aimed at kids, but a nice read nonetheless, as it discusses a lot of animals and plant species endemic to the islands, so again plenty of searching there for words in dictionaries.

There is a nurse who I work with (okay I don't have a lot to do with her) who's French, and I didn't even know until recently that she's actually from New Caledonia herself. I'm glad she agreed with my findings though on the topic of money - it's bloody expensive there! Perhaps one day we might go back, but financially we'd have to be much more comfortable.

I spoke some Dutch in the last couple of days. It's interesting going into patient's homes as you never quite know what you might find (personality, ethnic background, beliefs, environment- their house). The other day I went to see a patient who I thought was Italian, given his/her surname. Me being a language nerd, once I heard his/her accent, I felt her background was Germanic. I guessed northern Italy (where they speak German) or Switzerland. Turns out he/she is Dutch and from Limburg (right down south) where my father originates. She/he said his/her accent might sound more German (not that I literally meant German, but 'Germanic', but still) as his/her native dialect is a German dialect although he/she speaks standard Dutch and German. It was nice to speak Dutch again, but gee, I feel rusty! Where's Assimil Dutch/Néerlandais? ;)

For those who don't know, in Melbourne in terms of Europeans, we have a lot of Italian and Greek immigrants. Dutch, Macedonians feature as do Croatians in significant numbers. Most of these are on the decline though as older generations pass away. The Dutch here are generally in the later stages of their lives, and according to census info, their population is relatively quickly dropping. Interestingly, the numbers of Spanish, French and German speakers on steadily growing (not just in overall numbers but also as a percentage- that's my assumption without 'running' the numbers).
Last edited by PeterMollenburg on Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PM’s Full Throttle Face Off vs Flat-out, Flat-stick, Fully sick French Till Mid Nov 2018 Exam(s)

Postby renaissancemedici » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:15 am

I've tried the parallel assimil generations method for German and it is a great idea (if I may say so myself...). It works on so many levels: repetition, both modern and more formal language, overlearning etc.
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Re: PM’s Full Throttle Face Off vs Flat-out, Flat-stick, Fully sick French Till Mid Nov 2018 Exam(s)

Postby iguanamon » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:09 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:...My other equally favourite resource is "Bien-dire", which isn't a course. If every language had the same publication, a combination of Assimil and Bien-dire would suit me nicely. Santa, you listening, tell those publishers in Lyon to expand their range!

One thing about language-learning is that bigger, more popular languages have many more learning resources available for learners. Spanish has VeinteMundos which is online in a magazine article format with varied stories from across the Spanish-speaking world. The articles include audio and mouse-over definitions of specific vocabulary points. The articles have free downloadable pdf's and mp3 audio. A learner could certainly combine this resource with Assimil and Destinos after, say, halfway through it maybe.

This kind of resource isn't/wasn't available for my other languages. I venture to say it probably isn't out there for most languages. There's a reason for this. There isn't much of a market for it. Most learners rarely advance beyond a course. Most learners never even get past the first three lessons of a course let alone finish one. It's amazing how good of a condition used self-teaching language courses are in when I buy them. So it's a limited market. VeinteMundos is, by the way, free.
PeterMollenburg wrote:Actually on that note, much of my French comes from time away from my desk these days ... Maybe I am C1, but I'm certainly weak when it comes to the exam formats. So, Globalia still feels challenging, as there's plenty of words and terminology I simply do not know.

Good job, PM, using those hidden moments productively! French is part of your life. Globalia feels challenging because you probably haven't read a novel before in French, if you have read one you haven't mentioned many. The first one is always the hardest. The second novel is also hard but a little easier. (Within a novel, the first half is the hardest. I've found that after reading two thirds it gets much easier.) By the time of the third or fourth novel, things start to get a lot easier and I get surprised at how much I know from what's passed before. It's a snowball effect.

I've been reading an old Raymond Chandler noir detective novel- The Big Sleep or O Sono Eterno/La Grande Dormida in Portuguese and Catalan. The adjectives used in this novel are quite flowery but utterly useless in 98% of what I do/will do in either language. Too lazy to make a parallel text out of it, I've been reading a chapter in Portuguese and re-reading the same chapter in Catalan. Here's an example of the language the author uses. Bear in mind that the book is over 70 years old.
Raymond Chandler- The Big Sleep wrote:The gentle-eyed, horse-faced maid let me into the long gray and white upstairs sitting room with the ivory drapes tumbled extravagantly on the floor and the white carpet from wall to wall. A screen star's boudoir, a place of charm and seduction, artificial as a wooden leg. It was empty at the moment. The door closed behind me with the unnatural softness of a hospital door. A breakfast table on wheels stood by the chaise-longue. Its silver glittered. There were cigarette ashes in the coffee cup. I sat down and waited.
It seemed a long time before the door opened again and Vivian came in. She was in oyster-white lounging pajamas trimmed with white fur, cut as flowingly as a summer sea frothing on the beach of some small and exclusive island.

The descriptive constructions "tumbled extravagantly" and "as flowingly as a summer sea frothing on the beach" are not how I would describe anything in English or in any of my other languages in my daily life. This type of language is probably only found in a novel. The thing is though, that even though this is useless (nobody would ever plug these sentences into anki) some of it matters more than we may think- if not immediately, then down the road. The word "frothing" I've only ever seen used as "frothing at the mouth" but the equivalent uses of "froth" in TL translate as a variation of "foam" which is a useful word. "Extravagant" is also a handy word to use from time to time, still, not everyday language.

Don't get too down about it. As s_allard says, it's how well you can manipulate French that matters. While I make reading and watching/listening an important part of my learning, there are plenty of other ways to absorb vocabulary and structures, which you've been doing for a long time. Maybe they aren't "tumbling extravagantly as flowingly as summer sea frothing on the beach" but, you have a great command of the basics of French and that's something you can build on to improve it. So start practicing reading about topics and describing what you've read, taking a position and defending it or arguing against it. I hope you'll find the time to start giving those practice test materials a chance.
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