Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby iguanamon » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:55 pm

I had a look at the biendire.com website and found this article described as C1/C2
Bien Dire wrote:La Provence est une région qui a la côte ! Situées au sud-est de la France, les collines provençales relient la mer méditerranée aux montagnes des Alpes. C’est au cœur des Alpilles, au pied de la cité médiévale des Baux-de-Provence, qu’une expérience unique d’art et de musique immersifs vous attend.

Les Carrières de Lumières sont un lieu unique en France. Dans un site naturel classé, les anciennes carrières de calcaire offrent une pierre blanche irrégulière mais éblouissante comme support artistique.

Les parois d’une quinzaine de mètres de haut accueillent un spectacle numérique d’exception. Des toiles de grands maîtres sont projetées sur 7 000 m2 et permettent d’élargir le regard des promeneurs. Bercés de musiques choisies, les spectateurs deviennent acteurs de leur visite XXL. Les Carrières de Lumières viennent de rouvrir leurs portes avec des modalités spéciales qui permettent une visite sereine. Deux expositions sont proposées, l’une sur l’œuvre de Dalí, intitulée « Dalí, l’énigme sans fin » et l’autre sur l’art de Gaudí, intitulée « Gaudí, architecte de l’imaginaire ». La lumière de la Provence et ses paysages pittoresques ont charmé et inspiré de nombreux artistes reconnus tels que Van Gogh, Chagall et Cézanne. Le site culturel a déjà mis à l’honneur certains d’entre eux et beaucoup d’autres. Les carrières ont permis un gros plan sur les œuvres de Monet, Renoir, Chagall, Michel-Ange, Léonard de Vinci, Raphaël, Klimt, Van Gogh, Picasso parmi d’autres. Les 14 degrés des galeries, les images, le son et les mouvements en font un lieu troublant.

Profitez-en pour visiter le château des Baux-de-Provence, il existe un billet combiné, et la commune de Saint-Rémy-de-Provence, un joyau provençal. Les Carrières de Lumières ont également une petite sœur à Paris, les Ateliers de Lumières, encore actuellement fermés.


I am not a French-speaker. I can get more than the gist here thanks to my Romance languages, Haitian Creole and Lesser Antilles French Creole plus English. I'll leave it to the French-speakers and those at C2 to judge. Still, I wouldn't use just this magazine for reading widely. A learner could probably do just as well with random wikipedia articles or any French topical website... but they probably wouldn't get as much variety in one resource. Actually, bien dire reminds me of veintemundos for Spanish. I have always said that to advance in a language it is important to read widely... even subjects that would not normally be of interest. A magazine format is best for variety and even if a subject is not all that interesting, it's just an article. Spending 10 or 15 minutes with it won't kill a learner's soul.

Air France has several free magazines on their site that look to have varied content. of course, there won't be highlighted words and no accompanying audio, but they could be of use to others... and, perhaps, even to PM aussi. ;). One of my favorite magazine type sites online is GlobalVoices.org. Most of the articles have a human made English translation or original... there could even be Dutch translations for some of the articles. They usually have something of interest.
Last edited by iguanamon on Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby tastyonions » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:14 pm

It definitely has some advanced words in there but nothing you would not get (and more) from reading Le Monde or Science et Vie. Anyway, I recommend that Peter do whatever keeps him most interested in the language even if that seems to be mostly learner-directed content. Sticking with it is the most important thing.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Cavesa » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:59 pm

Science et vie had been extremely useful to me. For the "science" variant and out of interest. Not sure it will be too useful for the "lettres" variant. Bien Dire might be nice, but I somehow don't think this sample is C2. Perhaps it is, in terms of vocabulary. But it is just a description, not something too complex. Also, C2 is not necessarily about a text being more complicated, but rather about understanding a text for B2-C2 perfectly and being able to further work with it (for example mix it with others and write a synthèse)

I had already started a long post, I promise to finish it soon!
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby garyb » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:27 pm

I do find it a bit strange on this forum that the prevalent belief is that, at least after a certain stage, native input is always superior to material specifically designed to help with learning and improving at the language. Even at an advanced level I believe they're complementary and that some proper study can fill in gaps, sort out weak points, and expand knowledge that would take much longer or even not happen at all with just extensive reading and listening. And it's fair to say that even C-level students usually have their share of gaps and weak points. Sure there are bad courses, bad tutors, and materials that are far less advanced than they claim to be out there, but that doesn't negate the point.

From PM's description, Bien-dire sounds ideal especially for someone preparing for an exam that tests on a potentially wide range of subjects. The sample just looks like typical written French of a fairly high register, which there's certainly no shortage of in the wild, but I can't really judge it as a resource without seeing what value it adds beyond the texts.

My Italian is probably in the C levels now and I happily still use videos and podcasts aimed at learners. I find that they can be more useful for picking up the kind of everyday language that I actually want to understand and use than most native news and media. My goals are different of course, and if I were studying for an exam I'd seek out more "news and intellectual magazine"-type content aimed at natives but something aimed at helping advanced learners with that type of language would be more than welcome too.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Cavesa » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:34 pm

I totally agree, Garyb. Resources for learners can be very useful up to C2. However, it depends on what is the resource like, whether it is really for the high level (we all know PM, who despite all of his qualities tends to get stuck at too easy stuff sometimes, trying to squeeze every quark of value of it, even if it meant spending two and half eternity on it), and also on how it is used.

And also on what is each learner's routine, and their needs. Almost everything PM wrote about his DALF and the feedback screams "more extensive reading and listening!" in my opinion. So, while the plan of focusing on intensive reading and then adding more extensive is nice, as PM describes it, I just worry that all the Bien dire dissections won't actually let him move on to the extensive activities :-D

But in case of many other learners, myself included, I'd say more intensive reading and study of resources for advanced learners is definitely a great thing...

And yes, this looks like high register French, but that doesn't necessarily make it great exam preparation. PM (and the other candidates doing DALF with me too) were not facing particularly difficult texts. They struggled to create an intelligent text based on partially dumb sources. But yes, other candidates another day will get very dry and complicated texts, true.

P.S. I hope you don't mind me joking about your study style. You know I admire it!
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Gustav Aschenbach » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:44 am

tastyonions wrote:It definitely has some advanced words in there but nothing you would not get (and more) from reading Le Monde or Science et Vie.


Yes. Le Point is very good as well.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Gustav Aschenbach » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:53 am

Cavesa wrote:Also, C2 is not necessarily about a text being more complicated, but rather about understanding a text for B2-C2 perfectly and being able to further work with it (for example mix it with others and write a synthèse)


Yes...
There's actually no special magical C2 vocabulary that you have to acquire. C2 means that you basically understand anything you read. And that comes by reading anything. That's why I wouldn't rely too much on learners' materials, but rather on the "real deal". Books and magazines aimed at learners are limited and can't cover it all.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:18 am

iguanamon wrote:I had a look at the biendire.com website and found this article described as C1/C2
Bien Dire wrote:La Provence est une région qui a la côte ! Situées au sud-est de la France, les collines provençales relient la mer méditerranée aux montagnes des Alpes. C’est au cœur des Alpilles, au pied de la cité médiévale des Baux-de-Provence, qu’une expérience unique d’art et de musique immersifs vous attend.

Les Carrières de Lumières sont un lieu unique en France. Dans un site naturel classé, les anciennes carrières de calcaire offrent une pierre blanche irrégulière mais éblouissante comme support artistique.

Les parois d’une quinzaine de mètres de haut accueillent un spectacle numérique d’exception. Des toiles de grands maîtres sont projetées sur 7 000 m2 et permettent d’élargir le regard des promeneurs. Bercés de musiques choisies, les spectateurs deviennent acteurs de leur visite XXL. Les Carrières de Lumières viennent de rouvrir leurs portes avec des modalités spéciales qui permettent une visite sereine. Deux expositions sont proposées, l’une sur l’œuvre de Dalí, intitulée « Dalí, l’énigme sans fin » et l’autre sur l’art de Gaudí, intitulée « Gaudí, architecte de l’imaginaire ». La lumière de la Provence et ses paysages pittoresques ont charmé et inspiré de nombreux artistes reconnus tels que Van Gogh, Chagall et Cézanne. Le site culturel a déjà mis à l’honneur certains d’entre eux et beaucoup d’autres. Les carrières ont permis un gros plan sur les œuvres de Monet, Renoir, Chagall, Michel-Ange, Léonard de Vinci, Raphaël, Klimt, Van Gogh, Picasso parmi d’autres. Les 14 degrés des galeries, les images, le son et les mouvements en font un lieu troublant.

Profitez-en pour visiter le château des Baux-de-Provence, il existe un billet combiné, et la commune de Saint-Rémy-de-Provence, un joyau provençal. Les Carrières de Lumières ont également une petite sœur à Paris, les Ateliers de Lumières, encore actuellement fermés.


I am not a French-speaker. I can get more than the gist here thanks to my Romance languages, Haitian Creole and Lesser Antilles French Creole plus English. I'll leave it to the French-speakers and those at C2 to judge. Still, I wouldn't use just this magazine for reading widely. A learner could probably do just as well with random wikipedia articles or any French topical website... but they probably wouldn't get as much variety in one resource. Actually, bien dire reminds me of veintemundos for Spanish. I have always said that to advance in a language it is important to read widely... even subjects that would not normally be of interest. A magazine format is best for variety and even if a subject is not all that interesting, it's just an article. Spending 10 or 15 minutes with it won't kill a learner's soul.

Air France has several free magazines on their site that look to have varied content. of course, there won't be highlighted words and no accompanying audio, but they could be of use to others... and, perhaps, even to PM aussi. ;). One of my favorite magazine type sites online is GlobalVoices.org. Most of the articles have a human made English translation or original... there could even be Dutch translations for some of the articles. They usually have something of interest.


Sorry, iguanamon, I appreciate the example, but this isn't a great one. I've brought four magazines with me (I'm working away from home today and tomorrow) hoping I'll have the time to provide some examples. The above does not seem like the typical C-level article from Bien-dire. I'll endeavour to provide more examples... yet I do appreciate the analysis, this is an important part of my moving forward and using appropriate content/learning resources... thus all the more reason for me to provide more examples so further judgement on usefulness can be made.

The idea is to use Bien-dire for vocabulary acquisition and idioms either via the word lists, reading the articles, both, listening to the audio perhaps... Widening my vocabulary and idioms were mentioned in the feedback post the C2 exam. I intend on doing extensive reading separately, so it isn't intended as my sole resource for reading.


tastyonions wrote:It definitely has some advanced words in there but nothing you would not get (and more) from reading Le Monde or Science et Vie. Anyway, I recommend that Peter do whatever keeps him most interested in the language even if that seems to be mostly learner-d
irected content. Sticking with it is the most important thing.


Thank you tastyonions! Imo (although I'll let others judge as mentioned above), this is not only level appropriate, but it's a gold mine for me, one that I am enthusiastic about. Yes, it's a very interesting resource for me to learn vocabulary. I do feel that it's being a little bit too scrutinized, although I am asking for some further judgement and I feel the resource deserves to be exonerated. Furthermore, few would criticize me were I to use SRS instead of the magazines for vocabulary study. And that would bore the shit out of me while I'd be desperately wanting to get back to Bien-dire with it's interesting articles and swathes of unknown vocabulary and idioms.

Cavesa wrote:Science et vie had been extremely useful to me. For the "science" variant and out of interest. Not sure it will be too useful for the "lettres" variant. Bien Dire might be nice, but I somehow don't think this sample is C2. Perhaps it is, in terms of vocabulary. But it is just a description, not something too complex. Also, C2 is not necessarily about a text being more complicated, but rather about understanding a text for B2-C2 perfectly and being able to further work with it (for example mix it with others and write a synthèse)

I had already started a long post, I promise to finish it soon!


Yep, this one doesn't seem to be convincing to be at the C-level, I agree. And yes, understanding is very important. With more vocabulary comes more understanding.... and with more or many other activities. This is just my intended method of vocabulary study, not my entire study routine, just a portion of it.

garyb wrote:I do find it a bit strange on this forum that the prevalent belief is that, at least after a certain stage, native input is always superior to material specifically designed to help with learning and improving at the language. Even at an advanced level I believe they're complementary and that some proper study can fill in gaps, sort out weak points, and expand knowledge that would take much longer or even not happen at all with just extensive reading and listening. And it's fair to say that even C-level students usually have their share of gaps and weak points. Sure there are bad courses, bad tutors, and materials that are far less advanced than they claim to be out there, but that doesn't negate the point.

From PM's description, Bien-dire sounds ideal especially for someone preparing for an exam that tests on a potentially wide range of subjects. The sample just looks like typical written French of a fairly high register, which there's certainly no shortage of in the wild, but I can't really judge it as a resource without seeing what value it adds beyond the texts.

My Italian is probably in the C levels now and I happily still use videos and podcasts aimed at learners. I find that they can be more useful for picking up the kind of everyday language that I actually want to understand and use than most native news and media. My goals are different of course, and if I were studying for an exam I'd seek out more "news and intellectual magazine"-type content aimed at natives but something aimed at helping advanced learners with that type of language would be more than welcome too.


Agreed, agreed, agreed. Tnx, garyb.

Cavesa wrote:I totally agree, Garyb. Resources for learners can be very useful up to C2. However, it depends on what is the resource like, whether it is really for the high level (we all know PM, who despite all of his qualities tends to get stuck at too easy stuff sometimes, trying to squeeze every quark of value of it, even if it meant spending two and half eternity on it), and also on how it is used.

And also on what is each learner's routine, and their needs. Almost everything PM wrote about his DALF and the feedback screams "more extensive reading and listening!" in my opinion. So, while the plan of focusing on intensive reading and then adding more extensive is nice, as PM describes it, I just worry that all the Bien dire dissections won't actually let him move on to the extensive activities :-D

But in case of many other learners, myself included, I'd say more intensive reading and study of resources for advanced learners is definitely a great thing...

And yes, this looks like high register French, but that doesn't necessarily make it great exam preparation. PM (and the other candidates doing DALF with me too) were not facing particularly difficult texts. They struggled to create an intelligent text based on partially dumb sources. But yes, other candidates another day will get very dry and complicated texts, true.

P.S. I hope you don't mind me joking about your study style. You know I admire it!


Yes, I agree, I can't be trusted :lol: No, really, I agree. Thus, I will provide more samples. I would scan images of the articles and link to them were I more computer savvy, however to figure that out will drive me nuts and likely be standing on copyright infringement toes. So I'll type some stuff out as soon as I have the ample time necessary.

Okay, Cavesa, I'm going to mention something that I wasn't going to. I had run this idea past another very trusted wise person on this forum and the conclusion was you'd probably tell me to do the Grammaire Progressive series, exam focus study and loads of extensive activities. My idea was to give you the opportunity to plan 90 minutes of my daily study out of my 120 minutes. I would reserve the right to use the 30 minutes how I please (Bien-dire was my choice), while you would tell me/design the rest of the study plan. Are you open to this? There would be certain limitations, such as taking my learning style into consideration, drawing on resources I already own, keeping away from SRS and kwizqit or whatever it's called, since I have ample resources as already mentioned. I then decided instead to show you my list of advanced courses and let you choose. But here we are now....

The exam directly or indirectly points to a need for work in these areas: Vocab/idioms, (Dalf) writing techniques/flow/structure, extensive materials and looking back on my past language course use I've barely touched any advanced courses in my time. I completed Assimil Using French, have used a bit of Hugo French Advanced and completed perhaps half of Practise Makes Perfect - The French Subjunctive.

Thus, if I take my learning styles on board, with some of your advice sprinkled it, my 30 minute rotating study sessions (of which there are 5, but I only do four on any given day), currently look like this:

1 Bien-dire (vocab/idioms)

2 Extensive reading

3 Advanced course: Grammaire Progressive (I changed this on your recommendation from Hugo French Advanced)

4 Extensive watching (I changed this from intensive with 'Buffy' on your recommendation)

5 DALF preparation books focusing on writing with tutor with DALF experience input semi-regularly (this I also tweaked based on your recommendations).

Given, these are all areas of need, and I have 2 hours of study time each morning, I think I've designed a pretty decent study routine. If you feel I desperately need more extensive reading and watching, then other activities begin to suffer, but they are all important. Note that I do read quite a bit to my children (yes it's children's reading, but I'm just mentioning it as another activity), I watch TV at times outside of my study time when there's spare time some evenings (I binge-watched 4 hours of a French series last night for example), I listen to podcasts outside of my study time on commutes (today I listened to 45 minutes of podcasts as I had a long drive).

They are extra activities. My 2 hours each morning is where i am designing focused study. I would appreciate your feedback now that I have tweaked it. What would you do differently if anything (considering I've already altered it as you suggested)?

Oh, and no probs with the jokes, I am known to have my own little (MASSIVE) study habits that warrant my reputation for using easier materials.


Gustav Aschenbach wrote:
tastyonions wrote:It definitely has some advanced words in there but nothing you would not get (and more) from reading Le Monde or Science et Vie.


Yes. Le Point is very good as well.


Well, I don't have years worth of those magazines on hand and as garyb pointed out, my motivation is with Bien-dire. I do hear you though and I don't want you to think that I'm unfairly criticizing you, Gustav Aschenbach. Your points have merrit, but so do mine ;) I don't need more resources, but I am hearing you and others, honestly. Those resources are perhaps excellent as well, but each to his own (I do read other content btw and have a list of newspapers and the like that are useful, but I guess in the end with go with what we are drawn to, and if wise, we take our goals and level wishing to reach greatly into consideration as well - i'll provide some more examples soon of Bien-dire).

Gustav Aschenbach wrote:
Cavesa wrote:Also, C2 is not necessarily about a text being more complicated, but rather about understanding a text for B2-C2 perfectly and being able to further work with it (for example mix it with others and write a synthèse)


Yes...
There's actually no special magical C2 vocabulary that you have to acquire. C2 means that you basically understand anything you read. And that comes by reading anything. That's why I wouldn't rely too much on learners' materials, but rather on the "real deal". Books and magazines aimed at learners are limited and can't cover it all.


Yep, I need to get on with it ;) Excellent points though, both of you.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby guyome » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:45 am

I haven't much to say on the main topic but I wanted to point that the following sentence contains a mistake:
La Provence est une région qui a la côte !
'Côte' (rib/coast/...) should be 'cote' (avoir la cote/être coté=to be popular/...). The pronunciation is different so it's not just a matter of spelling.
Last edited by guyome on Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:42 am

I could not find the article iguanamon mentions, on the bien-dire website. However I was able to find a link to one magazine which you can leaf through digitally, here:

https://fr.calameo.com/read/003710397459dede1e8bd

It's not that much of a sample and as I don't want to take a month of Sundays writing out a good sample of the content here and thereby infringing on copyright, I am willing to take a selection of photographs of the articles and email, text, whatsapp them through to a couple of people I feel I know here on the forum willing to judge the content. I would ask for your guarantee that the content not be shared and that it be deleted afterwards. If wanting to participate, send me a PM and I'll reply and we can exchange contact details for sending purposes.
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