Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

[BeaP]

I won't be back around these parts until my mission is complete. I've got the tools, I know what I need to do, many an excellent forum member has provided me with ample instruction and advice, now I need to put it all into practise until I get what I came for ...Bye

I'm wishing you all the stamina in the world. I'm preparing for the DELE C2 after 15 years of self-study, so I know how hard it is. I've decided to do all the mock tests that are available in the galaxy, and I try to keep track of my scores. I also note down my reflections on the different tasks: time management, little tricks, things to watch out for. I've subscribed to the El País (the Spanish equivalent of Le Monde), analyse articles (vocabulary, linking words and structures) and try to reproduce them both orally and in a written form. And I'm planning to go through at least one C1-C2 grammar with exercises. I hope your preparation goes according to your plans, and you'll be back with news of success.

[rdearman]

I will try to weather storm and proceed with the French objective - C1 and C2. I feel like I'm sick to death of attempting to pass C-level exams despite only ever sitting one, for which I had less than ideal preparation but still gave it a good go a couple years back. I hope to change this in 2022.

Why?

Most of what we say and do is not essential. If you can eliminate it, you'll have more time, and more tranquillity. Ask yourself at every moment, 'Is this necessary?' -- Marcus Aurelius Antoninus

[iguanamon]

While PM may be sick and tired of preparing to sit a French C level exam, he seems to have a need to do so. Unlike me, for PM sitting the test in a physical location won't set him back too much financially. Having a deadline tends to concentrate the mind for some people in a way that is meaningful for them. Whether or not PM ever uses the piece of paper for anything outside of self-satisfaction is immaterial.

He is familiar with the testing process. He knows what to do and how to do it to make it happen. He has the materials to hand. It's just a matter of making it happen. At this stage in learning, it's more about consolidating the knowledge already learned, making thought and expression be as TL as possible... and polishing that thought and expression to be as natural as possible as a second language-speaker outside of a TL country. It's not so easy, but it can be done. It has been done. He will do it. I have no doubt.

[reineke]

So... 2021 is almost done. It's been a tumultuous year for both language learning and everything else. I doubt 2022 will be much better, but I will try to weather storm and proceed with the French objective - C1 and C2. I feel like I'm sick to death of attempting to pass C-level exams despite only ever sitting one, for which I had less than ideal preparation but still gave it a good go a couple years back. I hope to change this in 2022.

I aim to study 3 hours per day of planned focused desk study plus extra outside of this (commutes, exercise etc). I plan to stick to it until I've met my objectives. I plan to surpass 1000hrs of French study in 2022. 2021 has been my lowest total yet for French I believe and likely due to running out of steam, getting a bit lost, wanderlusting, running into the intermediate plateau and being freaked out by the state of the world. I plan for 2022 comprising of much more reading and writing than ever before as well as a good deal of watching/listening, plenty of vocabulary building and a good deal of advanced grammar suitable for exam purposes. I'll be swimming in French. I'm going to say something bold now.... I won't be back around these parts until my mission is complete. I've got the tools, I know what I need to do, many an excellent forum member has provided me with ample instruction and advice, now I need to put it all into practise until I get what I came for ...Bye

PM, I wish you the best but this is business as usual. How about speaking/conversing with educated adults? 50 hours of mock exam tutoring? You sat for a C-level exam only once. That was over two years ago. Book the next C-1 exam and prepare for it.

[PeterMollenburg]

We would love to live vicariously through your journey! Feel free to leave updates! Best of luck!

Thanks Lawyer&Mom. I'm going to try to avoid the forum but I can't rule it out that I won't be back in 2022 before meeting my objectives. The reason is I really want to focus on getting the task done, or at least having a red hot go at completing it. I fear that getting on here will distract me and this is a year I want very little in the way of distractions as I'll need all the energy and time I have given I've several other things on my plate as well.

I won't be back around these parts until my mission is complete. I've got the tools, I know what I need to do, many an excellent forum member has provided me with ample instruction and advice, now I need to put it all into practise until I get what I came for ...Bye

I'm wishing you all the stamina in the world. I'm preparing for the DELE C2 after 15 years of self-study, so I know how hard it is. I've decided to do all the mock tests that are available in the galaxy, and I try to keep track of my scores. I also note down my reflections on the different tasks: time management, little tricks, things to watch out for. I've subscribed to the El País (the Spanish equivalent of Le Monde), analyse articles (vocabulary, linking words and structures) and try to reproduce them both orally and in a written form. And I'm planning to go through at least one C1-C2 grammar with exercises. I hope your preparation goes according to your plans, and you'll be back with news of success.

Hey BeaP,

Your comments make me realise I'm still underprepared and may remain so in 2022. 15 years! Yikes! Maybe I need to prepare for several more years? This is where I get frustrated, which I mentioned recently on another thread. How is it that Person ABC, Organisation XYZ (including the Alliance Française) state that to get to C2 all you need to do is easy peasy lemon squeezy x amount of hard study hours and you're there! Okay, maybe not that simple, but it's certainly not several years as I have done. Then there's yourself, there's others, there's my previous experience. That end of the scale makes me think that I will not pass, as it's a ridiculously difficult task, but I will try anyway. Even teachers at the AF said to me after failing C2, oh even we (native speakers) only have C1. Wtf? FSI numbers people? I just don't get it! Anyway, I wish you all the sucess with the DELE exam BeaP and hope I am just as successful!

I will try to weather storm and proceed with the French objective - C1 and C2. I feel like I'm sick to death of attempting to pass C-level exams despite only ever sitting one, for which I had less than ideal preparation but still gave it a good go a couple years back. I hope to change this in 2022.

Why?

Most of what we say and do is not essential. If you can eliminate it, you'll have more time, and more tranquillity. Ask yourself at every moment, 'Is this necessary?' -- Marcus Aurelius Antoninus

Very nice quote. Thanks rdearman.

While PM may be sick and tired of preparing to sit a French C level exam, he seems to have a need to do so. Unlike me, for PM sitting the test in a physical location won't set him back too much financially. Having a deadline tends to concentrate the mind for some people in a way that is meaningful for them. Whether or not PM ever uses the piece of paper for anything outside of self-satisfaction is immaterial.

He is familiar with the testing process. He knows what to do and how to do it to make it happen. He has the materials to hand. It's just a matter of making it happen. At this stage in learning, it's more about consolidating the knowledge already learned, making thought and expression be as TL as possible... and polishing that thought and expression to be as natural as possible as a second language-speaker outside of a TL country. It's not so easy, but it can be done. It has been done. He will do it. I have no doubt.

Seems like a pretty decent summary there, iguanamon. Not sure it's about consolidating only, though for me, as I've still a lot to learn...

I am really starting to have doubts and believe that I'm much less of the way down that path towards C1 and C2 than I suspect(ed). Still, if I'm wrong, that's not so bad, it just means I've got a fire under my backside and I need to put in all the effort I can to 'catch up'. Again I'm currently doubtful of passing, even by November, but it's amazing what six months of consistent learning and focused study can potentially do. Time will tell.

PM, I wish you the best but this is business as usual. How about speaking/conversing with educated adults? 50 hours of mock exam tutoring? You sat for a C-level exam only once. That was over two years ago. Book the next C-1 exam and prepare for it.

Thanks reineke. However, I don't believe It's business as usual, even though that is an absolute fair assumption. My 3 hour plan is business as usual, the routine is business as usual, so yep, you're absolutely correct. However, sticking to my plan it is not business as usual. I have only stuck to one plan in French - in the beginning I stuck to my large amount of French beginner courses for a good while indeed. After that I've done nothing but chop and change plans and when not chopping and changins I've been stopping and starting plans or even switching languages.

Yes I've watched plenty of series but I've not got beyond a few episodes of Buffy while referring to the transcripts. Thus, plenty of listening skills can still be developped. I've not read continually a good deal of books. I read a bit, I stop for a long while, I read a bit, I stop for another long while. Advanced courses? I'd be lucky to have completed two. Even the resource I love to say I love, that I utilise for intensive reading, bien-dire magazine, I've not got beyond perhaps a few weeks at a time of use. Writing I do for a few weeks at best and stop again. It's all the same pattern.

This time around I intend to stick to my plan, while gradually increasing the difficulty level and adjusting the plan where necessary - not when bored, nor when busy or distracted.

I will do creative writing, then get input from iTalki paid teachers, then do exam writing and train myself with their input to write much better exam style essays. I'll get through Buffy then another series and another and another. I'll actually make it through the Grammaire Progressive series including the advanced and perfectionnement levels. I'll continue with bien-dire 20 minutes for every study hour to acquire more and more advanced vocabulary that hopefully becomes active. And I'll read more than ever.

A few watches of Luca's intermediate plateau youtube videos have told me that I've just not stuck to my plans for long enough. I don't need him to tell me that, plenty of others have attempted to get me out of course land years back. I left course land but didn't apply myself for long enough to see results.

I will book for the C1 exam. I intend to sit it in May... just went off to check the website. Only one date in 2022 in Melbourne advertised. In years gone by it's usually March or May then again in November. This time around it's only late October 2022. Hmmm... I was planning for C1 in May then C2 in November. That throws a spanner in the works, maybe they will announce another date yet. Based on that it will be C1 in October then C2 the following year asap (depending on dates in 2023) OR just C2 in October 2022 OR C1 and C2 in October 2022. Either way I will be sitting sth in 2022 as soon as the earliest exam is.

[BeaP]

Your comments make me realise I'm still underprepared and may remain so in 2022. 15 years! Yikes! Maybe I need to prepare for several more years? This is where I get frustrated, which I mentioned recently on another thread. How is it that Person ABC, Organisation XYZ (including the Alliance Française) state that to get to C2 all you need to do is easy peasy lemon squeezy x amount of hard study hours and you're there! Okay, maybe not that simple, but it's certainly not several years as I have done. Then there's yourself, there's others, there's my previous experience. That end of the scale makes me think that I will not pass, as it's a ridiculously difficult task, but I will try anyway. Even teachers at the AF said to me after failing C2, oh even we (native speakers) only have C1. Wtf? FSI numbers people? I just don't get it! Anyway, I wish you all the sucess with the DELE exam BeaP and hope I am just as successful!

I think I haven't felt this frustration because I've studied philology at university, so I already knew what it would take to reach a C2. I don't care what organisations (language schools) say to possible students who they want to attract. I'd say that if someone can dedicate at least 2-3 hours every day to learning, B1 is around 2 years, B2 3-4 years, C1 5-6 years, C2 8-10 years. In the Bologna system usually you need to have a B2 when you're admitted to university. If you have the 3-year-course, you're expected to leave with a C1, if you study the 5-year-course, you leave with a C2. The language knowledge of a C2 student is equivalent with the knowledge of someone after a 5-year university course in the philology of the language. It's equivalent with the expected knowledge of high school language teachers and the beginning knowledge of translators and interpreters. With the Italian CILS C2 you can teach Italian. So these exams are hard. Can you do it? Can I do it? Yes, it is a fact. Both of us can do it, it's just a question of time and preparation. I want to do it like someone else wants to run a marathon. I don't care how much time it will take. During those 15 years often I've worked a full-time job and I have a family, small children. There were long periods when I couldn't study at all or just a couple of minutes a day. I don't care about the time it will take. I think I know where I am because I have several mock exam books. I've done exams from the book, I've also done the sample exam from the Cervantes site, and I know my score. I can't judge my speaking and writing objectively, but I can record myself, see fluency, see the time I could speak without a big pause. I can see if I find it very difficult to produce a text under time pressure. I think it's not that hard to assess one's own level if you get information about what's expected. (You don't need to calculate it from the years spent studying, and neither should you.) I usually do one section of the exam at one sitting, because that's what I have time for. Then I correct it, and ask myself these question: What kind of mistakes did I have? What was hard? What was easy? What do I need to do to avoid these mistakes? What kind of exercise is unnecessary, because I'm already good at this? I have to push myself out of the comfort zone and concentrate on weak points. After a while I'm planning to get corrections from an experienced examiner and I'd also like to take some speaking practice lessons from her. I'm sure you know this guy, I'm putting his link here, because it's easier to identify who I'm talking about.http://brianjx.altervista.org He's passed two C2 exams above the age of 50. He's not a genius or a professor of linguistics. If you read his blog, you can see that it's only time and determination. I hope I could give you some energy as a fellow marathon runner. Don't beat yourself and don't let stupid organisations or anyone spoil your journey.

[PeterMollenburg]

Your comments make me realise I'm still underprepared and may remain so in 2022. 15 years! Yikes! Maybe I need to prepare for several more years? This is where I get frustrated, which I mentioned recently on another thread. How is it that Person ABC, Organisation XYZ (including the Alliance Française) state that to get to C2 all you need to do is easy peasy lemon squeezy x amount of hard study hours and you're there! Okay, maybe not that simple, but it's certainly not several years as I have done. Then there's yourself, there's others, there's my previous experience. That end of the scale makes me think that I will not pass, as it's a ridiculously difficult task, but I will try anyway. Even teachers at the AF said to me after failing C2, oh even we (native speakers) only have C1. Wtf? FSI numbers people? I just don't get it! Anyway, I wish you all the sucess with the DELE exam BeaP and hope I am just as successful!

I think I haven't felt this frustration because I've studied philology at university, so I already knew what it would take to reach a C2. I don't care what organisations (language schools) say to possible students who they want to attract. I'd say that if someone can dedicate at least 2-3 hours every day to learning, B1 is around 2 years, B2 3-4 years, C1 5-6 years, C2 8-10 years. In the Bologna system usually you need to have a B2 when you're admitted to university. If you have the 3-year-course, you're expected to leave with a C1, if you study the 5-year-course, you leave with a C2. The language knowledge of a C2 student is equivalent with the knowledge of someone after a 5-year university course in the philology of the language. It's equivalent with the expected knowledge of high school language teachers and the beginning knowledge of translators and interpreters. With the Italian CILS C2 you can teach Italian. So these exams are hard. Can you do it? Can I do it? Yes, it is a fact. Both of us can do it, it's just a question of time and preparation. I want to do it like someone else wants to run a marathon. I don't care how much time it will take. During those 15 years often I've worked a full-time job and I have a family, small children. There were long periods when I couldn't study at all or just a couple of minutes a day. I don't care about the time it will take. I think I know where I am because I have several mock exam books. I've done exams from the book, I've also done the sample exam from the Cervantes site, and I know my score. I can't judge my speaking and writing objectively, but I can record myself, see fluency, see the time I could speak without a big pause. I can see if I find it very difficult to produce a text under time pressure. I think it's not that hard to assess one's own level if you get information about what's expected. (You don't need to calculate it from the years spent studying, and neither should you.) I usually do one section of the exam at one sitting, because that's what I have time for. Then I correct it, and ask myself these question: What kind of mistakes did I have? What was hard? What was easy? What do I need to do to avoid these mistakes? What kind of exercise is unnecessary, because I'm already good at this? I have to push myself out of the comfort zone and concentrate on weak points. After a while I'm planning to get corrections from an experienced examiner and I'd also like to take some speaking practice lessons from her. I'm sure you know this guy, I'm putting his link here, because it's easier to identify who I'm talking about.http://brianjx.altervista.org He's passed two C2 exams above the age of 50. He's not a genius or a professor of linguistics. If you read his blog, you can see that it's only time and determination. I hope I could give you some energy as a fellow marathon runner. Don't beat yourself and don't let stupid organisations or anyone spoil your journey.

Thanks BeaP,

Your post is very supportive and indeed you do provide some impetus while conveying the understanding to simply proceed with determination while remaining patient, as all good things come to those that wait. So I've put all my learning materials aside and I'm just gonna wait for my C2 certificate to turn up.... Okay, couldn't resist, but what I said, I meant, so thank you. I have read that guy's story re: his Italian and German experiences a couple of times. One thing I've learned is that I will study my way, so although I know you're not suggesting at all that I must flash card/Anki everything as he did, I can see that such 'stories' are useful for telling me that it's possible, and he was older than I am now. Perhaps that shouldn't matter but it does make me think that if he can do it and he's a little older, while I'm no spring chicken, I can too.

As for yourself BeaP, you're in a similar situation to myself with children, family and work to juggle, like many of us. Your time estimates on the CEFR scale seem realistic based on 2-3 hours/day study. I may not reach C2 as quick as I hoped, but I'm thinking now one step at a time - C1 should be my aim and focus on it, then C2 and focus on that. Your post really does reiterate what iguanamon was pointing out - I've got all the 'stuff' that I need, now it's a matter of getting down to work. And as you pointed out: time + determination + application and eventually it will happen. I guess I've been impatient due to language lust - I really want to dive into more languages. Patience is a virtue they say. Patience it will be, together with persistance, determination and smart application. Until I have my next crisis

Good luck BeaP!

Throw a frozen chicken over a cumulonimbus cloud until it's not frozen, like for realz an' that. Reminds me of that time I walked into a bar. Know what I'm sayin'?

[eido]

I think you're doing good work here, PM. I don't think you're being inconsistent, you're just trying to find something that will work for you. If you had all the time in the world, you may be able to explore more options; but you don't, so you're making do.

In many ways, you remind me of myself when I first joined this site. I wanted to get better at Spanish but had no idea how to realize that goal. After reading advice and getting advice, it was up to me. I knew that, but it still took a couple years to settle in and get all snuggled up to the fire of knowledge and drink from its warmth.

I've decided that I don't need to have a consistent routine, as long as, like you worded it, I "have a fire lit under my butt." (Must be toasty near that fireplace.) That means I'll always be doing something, or thinking about doing something, no matter how busy I get. I think you're at a similar stage. You really want to achieve your goal. If you didn't, you wouldn't be making brand-new plans for action every month to assure that you got to where you desired to go.

But I think you're right about what "6 months consistent effort" can do. I'd like to see where you get with that. I've found personally that even if I'm not constantly watching YouTube videos, nor writing to exchange partners every day, I do see progress. But I've always wondered what it'd be like if I pushed myself more.

So don't give up! I, and I'm sure many others here, want to see your journey Throw a ripe cumquat over your middle shoulder, and shout, "hip-hip hooray!"

[PeterMollenburg]

I think you're doing good work here, PM. I don't think you're being inconsistent, you're just trying to find something that will work for you. If you had all the time in the world, you may be able to explore more options; but you don't, so you're making do.

In many ways, you remind me of myself when I first joined this site. I wanted to get better at Spanish but had no idea how to realize that goal. After reading advice and getting advice, it was up to me. I knew that, but it still took a couple years to settle in and get all snuggled up to the fire of knowledge and drink from its warmth.

I've decided that I don't need to have a consistent routine, as long as, like you worded it, I "have a fire lit under my butt." (Must be toasty near that fireplace.) That means I'll always be doing something, or thinking about doing something, no matter how busy I get. I think you're at a similar stage. You really want to achieve your goal. If you didn't, you wouldn't be making brand-new plans for action every month to assure that you got to where you desired to go.

But I think you're right about what "6 months consistent effort" can do. I'd like to see where you get with that. I've found personally that even if I'm not constantly watching YouTube videos, nor writing to exchange partners every day, I do see progress. But I've always wondered what it'd be like if I pushed myself more.

So don't give up! I, and I'm sure many others here, want to see your journey Throw a ripe cumquat over your middle shoulder, and shout, "hip-hip hooray!"

Thanks eido for your support. I've done what I was capable of given the circumstances but in 2022 I intend on getting a whole lot more seriouser, especially with regards to throwing odd things over clouds or middle shoulders. Haha, the cumquat one made me laugh I'm aiming to throw the exam books over my middle shoulder some day and not have to look at them again. To be fair, I've dealt with several house moves in recent years and several job changes. Then there's Covid, or more precisely for me, the concerns around the restrictions and changes in society. No matter what your beliefs, it's enough to unsettle anyone. So, pandemics or not, house moves or not, it's time to push on! Well almost. I'll shut up about it already once the new year ticks over. Good luck eido and everyone else too with your language learning in 2022!

[PeterMollenburg]

Some final numbers for 2021 for French:

December
43 hours of French learning/study

2021 total for French learning/study:
538 hours and 56 minutes