Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:36 pm

garyb wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:That Luca polyglot dude, says from B2 to C1, if living in country and doing 10 hours a day of study will take you around 6 months provided you’re pushing your limits and diversifying your activities, working your weaknesses etc. Okay, given that I want to do a trillion courses, I need to add another year to that, that’s a year and 6 months. Given that I don’t have 10 hours/day, nor am I in French-country-land-ment, let’s add another couple years.... umm, no room for Dutch, no time for writing anything more... must go...
So if you could get there in X hours with method A, or reach the same destination in X+Y hours with methods A+B... Why bother with B? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with courses, but you seem to be saying yourself that they'd just slow you down. I'm not seeing their purpose here, except the C1 preparation ones if you're aiming for the exam.


Well, I do feel, they will improve my French, but you’re right, I’ve identified it as inefficient. I’m thorough, I like the intensive focus on grammar, the audio is usually great for shadowing, the drills are great for automaticity and output.

And, I never completed all the courses, I wanted to, this is unfinished business - but wisely it’s a short list even at 21. Given, most of these courses are beyond the level of those I have already completed, there will be much benefit. Rather than removing the training wheels and going it alone, the training wheels will shrink gradually. You can still ride like a true riad cyclist with training wheels, it’s just not accepted, and there will be some limitations, but once they come off, watch out! (actually, not really, i’d look stupid, idiotic, and stiupid again, but it gets me out on the road!)
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French

Postby trui » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:03 pm

I don't see what's wrong with some courses, especially grammar and vocab courses, if you keep it around your 2018 ratio.

In 2018 you spent, on average, 2 hours a day on French, with 30 minutes being courses, and 1 hour being pure native content (and I'm not even counting the commute audio podcasts!). 30 minutes on something you love and which keeps you motivated? Sounds good to me!

Some people need to go to school to get the motivation to learn a skill for an extended period of time (or in this case, use courses), some people can do without it. Some people just need their anki even when at times they could spend some of that time better elsewhere. Some people can't stand anki even though it could help at times.

If we all tried to learn a skill in the most 'efficient' way possible (not like we know exactly what way that is), then we'd probably give up on said skill within a week! Of course people can invest a bunch of time into one thing and never get anywhere, but Peter isn't doing that. He's reading, he's watching television--activities everyone can agree are beneficial.

My only advice would be to not underestimate vocabulary. So try and incorporate some way of actively developing it. But most of all, do what keeps you going. :)
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French

Postby rdearman » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:31 pm

I think your bicycle analogy is wrong. I think what you actually want to do is drive a Formula 1 race car and you think spending more time on your BMX will get you there.

The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French

Postby Carmody » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:47 pm

Peter,

As you know I have followed you for ages and find you a truly great teacher for me. Congrats on B1- fantastic, wonderful; I congratulated you at the time you earned it. I truly hope I can get there. I am B1 based on Dialang but that does not count, I know that. So, I am still looking forward to achieving that exalted height of B1 eventually some day.

But I have a question: I see you doing courses but you don't seem to mention reviewing vocabulary very often. I think you do Anki but am not sure. If so how often. I find review important because I am a slow learner.

As for language learning.........just me..........and only me...........I can only ride one horse at a time so I would stick with French. Likewise, I can only climb one mountain at a time. Having a single focus on one language affords me the time and space to enjoy the journey of a single language. This is a Polyglot Forum so no one would agree with me, but then again I am very different from others and always have been grateful to pick up what I can from the other Pros.

Thanks for sharing Peter and all the best to the family.
:D
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French

Postby zenmonkey » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:45 pm

Carmody wrote:.I can only ride one horse at a time so I would stick with French. Likewise, I can only climb one mountain at a time. Having a single focus on one language affords me the time and space to enjoy the journey of a single language. This is a Polyglot Forum so no one would agree with me, but then again I am very different from others and always have been grateful to pick up what I can from the other Pros.


A lot of people here agree with one language at a time. It isn't what I do, but it is a great strategy if you can stick to it.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French

Postby StringerBell » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:22 pm

PM, would you be willing to sum up how much by natives/for natives French media have you read or listened to compared to courses/material for language learners?

Native French media:
-how many TV series or # of episodes
-how many movies or YT videos
-how many books or #pages and what kind (a YA novel vs. non-fiction adult book, for example)
-how many newspapers, magazines, blogs, forums, etc...
-how many podcasts

I know it will be difficult to list everything, but even just a ballpark estimate would be really useful. I've never seen you specify what native material you use or how much you use it compared to how much language-learning/course material you're doing (apologies if you have already listed all this stuff somewhere). I know you've mentioned that you do listen and read in French, but the fact that you're struggling with French TV shows and audiobooks has me really confused about what you're actually doing if you are living in the language.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French

Postby rdearman » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:11 am

Peter, I don't want it to feel like a "pile on" or we're abusing your intelligence. That certainly isn't my intention. If you want to continue to do courses then that is your privilege. We're opposites in many ways, you love courses, I hate them, you love all things French, me.. .not so much. :)

I've recently taken a leaf out of your book and returned to some of the courses which I either skipped or breezed through. But I honestly don't believe that publishers design courses to the high level that you require. It just isn't a good business model for them. Beginners and intermediate courses are where the money is at, since at a higher level people would naturally gravitate toward native materials.

I can sympathise with the problem of not understanding French media. I find a lot of it unintelligible gibberish, but what I did notice is that back with I was concentrating on French for the Super Challenge a couple of years ago, my understanding was coming on in leaps and bounds. It has since gone backwards, but I don't think the answer to not understanding is more courses, but rather more media.

I have also spoken a lot, daily with French speakers doing a lot of language exchanges, but all this did was assist with the fluidity of my speaking, it didn't help me understand French TV. So while speaking with your children is very useful, and the courses are useful I don't know if it is helping with the comprehension of swift, natural native speakers.

So, I'm not questioning your desire to focus on a single language, nor am I questioning your work ethic, lord knows it is better than mine. I'm questioning the levels of these 18/21/however many courses. I think you might want to evaluate the level of the courses and if they are not a minimum of B2 then scrap them, your past that point they will not get you further. Some you've indicated are C-level courses intended for C-level students, great press on with those and ramp up the native media and adult books. Are you participating in the Super Challenge? If not I recommend it.

It is only my opinion, but I think the only way to learn to ride a horse, is to ride a horse. The only way to understand native media is to watch a crap ton of it. So, if you were to evaluate your skills: Reading, Writing, Listening, Speaking, then if listening comprehension is low, you need to take steps to resolve the issue. I have a real problem with grammar and written output, so I'm trying to address this by doing more of it.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:05 am

CompImp wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:Also, we’ve never spoken before, and your profile doesn’t reveal much. What grounds can you claim I need to move on? Have you reached B2 in an L2 without courses? If so, have you something meatier to share with me that might be of benefit, like how you achieved your language successes?

English isn't my native tongue. I got to where i am in English (and beyond B2 in French) in much less time than you without a course, a flash card, a teacher or a textbook. Native input and reading hundreds of millions of words of English is what got me to where i am. I am also C-level in a bunch of other languages (French, German, the Scandi's etc) I'd say that gives me the experience and grounds to claim that what you're doing isn't effective. That and your results prove it, too.


I’d say you’re right, it does give you the grounds to claim exactly that. Thank you for revealing your experience. I do want to ask though, and in absolute honesty, this is not because I do not believe your claims, but because so many people do overstate their achievements as per CEFR, have you passed any language exams at the C-level? But I’m not trying to hit back, if your levels are what you say they are, you definitely come from a position in which you indeed can judge my methods, and you’ve achieved a lot. Well done and great work, honestly!

CompImp wrote:
All in all I’m tired of defending my methods. People have seen me for long enough here, and been pleasantly surprised (almost willing to do more courses themselves) because of my success at times.

You've had total success, sure, but relatively your success is poor for the time and effort expended. You should have been receptively fluent thousands of hours ago.


Perhaps, yes. However would I have stuck to it? Would I have been motivated? I don’t know. It’s the way I wanted to do it, and so far it’s worked, albeit, very slowly. I could even go so far to say perhaps the courses didn’t help me much at all and it was precisely the native content that got me to B2. But that is pure speculation and likely incorrect. More likely is that it was the combination that got me there, and I have enjoy progressing through courses, so that’s what I did.

CompImp wrote:
It’s one thing to have a sound method that apparently gets one to C1 (or ‘advanced’ or whatever), but those people, methods etc, are not me. I do things my way, the way that motivates me, and that often means I chop and change my mind. So what, at least I continue to learn French.

That's fine but one day you will have to come to terms with the fact that your way is never going to get you to a very advanced level. Native-likeness will always elude you.


Yes, if I was only doing courses, always. Perhaps you didn’t see my stats. Not trying to big-note myself, just pointing out, that even if courses do absolutely NOTHING for my advancement, I am doing plenty of other activities, and yes I need to challenge myself further at some point.

Furthermore, once I have completed this list of courses, it is NOT the end of the road. I will say this to rdearman as well. I am FIXATED on completing them, and once done there will be even more room for native content. So don’t expect me to hover around the intermediate level forever, because I already include native content in my daily routine (which you don’t seem to acknowledge much at all, you just seem to focus on my courses and their limited capacity for progress) and once I have completed them, well, I’m repeating myself.

CompImp wrote:
I don’t feel necessarily that the courses on my list will get me to C1/C2. They will help though, and people might or might not be surprised. I don’t know, all I know is I feel I must do them, because that’s what I want to do.

No, courses won't help get you to C2. You might pass the test, sure, but real C2 as per the definitions will always be out of your reach.


No, it won’t, because as I’ve said already, courses are not my only activity and they will not continue to be forever. The fact that I acknowledge that courses will not get me to C1/C2 alone, for be enough for you to realise that I know there’s a lot more to it. Perhaps because I love talking about all the courses I’m going to complete gives people some crazy idea that that is all I ever want to do. No, wrong, pure and simple.

CompImp wrote:Language is about experience and if you only experience the same canned phrases and junk that coursebooks offer you are simply wasting your time and stalling. You spent over 223 hours doing stuff that is of no use to you last year alone. I mean, i probably spend 50 hours a year reading about language learning. I don't pretend it's making me better at learning new languages though. I personally would also argue 'vocab study' is equally useless for someone at B2 when you should be able to read and listen and learn from context, but others will disagree with this.


Pretty harsh hey? No room for much in the way of compliments. Cavesa has said many a time herself, that courses are valuable at the advanced levels. I agree. Clarification: She NEVER said only doing courses is worthwhile, so her methods are much more like yours than mine, but courses are NOT a waste of time. Skynet is on the verge of B2 with courses alone, I made it to B2 using predominantly courses. I don’t expect to make C2 only using courses, however they are not useless. Might be to you, but they are not to me.

CompImp wrote:Also, in reading we count pages, not hours.


I don’t give a flying f***ng turd what ‘we’ do! I count hours because I sit and read with my children most days and haven’t got the bloody time to count pages! I know most people count pages, I don’t have an IQ of 2, nor have a been living up a tree for the last ten years! Yes, this makes me angry for a couple of reasons. You are not me, and despise being part of a collective, that’s one of the main things wrong with humanity, that we are being herded like sheep, so don’t expect me to do something else because it’s the norm. Okay, breathe PM.

I convert my time to pages read for the Super Challenge most days and send it in via twitter. How? Well, when I actually find the time to read a non children’s novel or non-fiction book, I know what my reading speed is like. Thus, if I read for an hour of children’s books, I know my conversion of time to pages rate.

CompImp wrote:Similarly, you should only count hours of the other stuff where you're paying attention.


Wtf? I watched 90 minutes of TV last night, I only counted 30 minutes, both for the SC and my own records, this is common practice for me with podcasts, audio courses and TV, I am ALWAYS fair with my numbers!!!

CompImp wrote:I really don't understand when someone is told to do more native content, by exceptional non-native speakers of a second language who have already walked the path you want to follow, you just ignore it.


I ignored most people on my approach to B2 too.

CompImp wrote:You have done repeatedly in this thread of yours and really i'm surprised anyone still wants to give you any advice - reading this log over the years has been like banging my head on a brick wall and i'm not even invested in your French learning ! Not having a go like


That’s like saying - no offence, but you’re really ugly. Oh, sure, since you said no offence, I’m not offended.

Other people have seen it differently. They have seen me and my methods, trials and tribulations as inspirational (I know, corny), depends how you look at it. Perhaps some things are better off left unsaid?

CompImp wrote:- it's just frustrating that you won't do what people who know better are telling you. Their advice WILL work. But you'll never know because you won't do it.

1. Because I want to do things my way, this is my journey not yours, not theirs. I have reflected on everyone’s input, so much so that as I have said ten trillion times already, courses are not my own method of study.
2. I have also said this- once the courses are completed, I’ll be on to ‘more’ native content.

CompImp wrote:
Not to mention speaking to my children - A LOT - every single day in French.

We don't learn anything from speaking except how to vocalise what we already know.


You obviously didn’t read my post properly. I stated that the speaking with my children was good for reinforcing things I have learned through other methods. I never said it was one of my main methods of study! It’s a bonus! Seems you just want to tear me apart, really.

CompImp wrote:You need input.


Oh thanks, never knew this. Obviously you didn’t read my stats then.

CompImp wrote:You need to be receptively fluent or you will never be truly productively fluent. To still be struggling with dubbed series and native content after the years and time you've put in is a real shame.

I agree, but it is what it is, and it’s the way I want to do it.

CompImp wrote:You should listen to people more often.

Perhaps, perhaps I listened too much in the beginning, which is why I diversified my methods. If I hadn’t of, I wouldn’ve finished the courses 2 years ago, as you suggested would’ve been nice, and I’d be doing exclusively native content now.

CompImp wrote:Again, not having a go, just trying to hit you with some truth that may help you change your ways.

You are having a go. You can convince yourself that your’e not, but you are. I’ve already been told the cold hard truth on many occasion before, although it was done more diplomatically, and I keep fixating on completing the courses, so just let me be.

CompImp wrote: Your language learning has been akin to getting football lessons off Ronaldo and when he tells you to kick the ball a certain way to improve your striking you simply say 'nah, i like it my way better'. You then claim your free kicks hitting the wall 9 times out of 10 is a success while he's smashing in freekicks for fun.


Yeah, I think I got it by now.

CompImp wrote:
Some courses are very much relevant to the C-levels. CLE’s Grammaire Progressive du Français - Niveau Perfectionnement, Part/Vol./Book 4 of Mauger’s Cours de langue et de civilisation françaises might scrape in to the C-level standard, all the C-level exam prep books.

These course books are relevant to the C-level exams, not to real life actual C-level skills - understanding mostly everything you read or hear and being able to output at a similar level. Being able to use monolingual dictionaries. Being able to infer meaning of random words just from context because it's obvious because you know so much of the surrounding words that you don't need to have to look it up. I mean come on, you're the best part of 10,000 hours and several years into French and you're still fannying about with Assimil and books explaining the subjunctive ? :o

There are no real life C-level courses because it's not possible to gain the above skills with boxed, limited courses. A course would have to hand-hold you through thousands of hours of raw native material to get you to the C levels. Those courses don't exist. I mean think about it - you're trying to understand a whole other language with it's millions of intricacies and usage differences and slang and dialects and accents and sarcasm and wit and jokes and cultural reference and idioms from reading contrived books for learners with free 30-minute CD. To think you could possibly get to your goal, even by combining several of them, is utterly ludicrous.

What are you so scared of ? What is it about letting go of courses which terrifies you?

If you like your courses, then i think you should do them as a recreational hobby but you definitely shouldn't at this point be including them in your calculation of time spent learning French. At this point you're spending over 200 hours a year to learn how to continue kicking a ball at a wall instead of figuring out how to curl it into the top corner.


:x

Edit: Taken from a recent post of reineke’s called Reaching High Levels from which I have quoted rdearman:

rdearman wrote:I thought this was a very telling paragraph:

On average, learners with six months or more of targeted classroom instruction at the upper levels of proficiency and at least two years of in-country experience were able to shorten the average time-on-task for acquiring near-native proficiency from 17 years to five, including the time spent at lower levels of proficiency.


Especially for people who beat themselves up for not getting to C1/C2 level after studying at home for 5 years or so.


12 to 17 years was found to be average for reaching near-native fluency. Classroom time helped, as did in country stays. Anyway, as rdearman wrote above, not reaching C1/C2 after studying at home for 5 years is no disaster. The research posted by reineke in the thread also pointed out that there were MANY different methods employed on the way to attaining native-like fluency. Could I just be another one? Of course. Perhaps not the most efficient one, but one that works for me. Which is what I’ve been trying to say on numerous occasions, but it seems to be ignored, despite my focus on other methods other than courses as a part of my overall language learning process.
Last edited by PeterMollenburg on Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:27 am

Carmody wrote:Peter,

As you know I have followed you for ages and find you a truly great teacher for me. Congrats on B1- fantastic, wonderful; I congratulated you at the time you earned it. I truly hope I can get there. I am B1 based on Dialang but that does not count, I know that. So, I am still looking forward to achieving that exalted height of B1 eventually some day.


Thanks Carmody. As long as you keep pushing forward, you will make it!

Carmody wrote:But I have a question: I see you doing courses but you don't seem to mention reviewing vocabulary very often. I think you do Anki but am not sure. If so how often. I find review important because I am a slow learner.


I am also a slow learner, or are we just thorough? or is it we need to break things down more because our thought processes work differently?

I used SRS apps (first Flashcards Deluxe, then Anki) for 2 years, could’ve been three, don’t recall. I moved on because I got sick of it. I felt like it wasn’t helping me much, that it wasn’t time well spent.

At times, I’ve used a vocab book in which while studying at my desk, I’d write in it unknown words from courses, watching, listening or reading. I’d spend the first 10 minutes of each hour session of focused study, reviewing vocab from this exercise book (one colum French, other column English). I got bored of that and put it away too.

Other times I’d use a picture/illustrated dictionary or some kind of word list for the first 10 minutes of each hour session of study to learn new words and perhaps every 2nd session of 10 minutes to review portions of what I’d already covered. Nowdays I’m not doing that either...

Nowadays I just look up words when I need to- if I don’t know how to say something to my children, if I come across unknown words in the children’s books, in a book I might be reading, a podcast I’m listening to, or rarely from a TV show.

Carmody wrote:As for language learning.........just me..........and only me...........I can only ride one horse at a time so I would stick with French. Likewise, I can only climb one mountain at a time. Having a single focus on one language affords me the time and space to enjoy the journey of a single language. This is a Polyglot Forum so no one would agree with me, but then again I am very different from others and always have been grateful to pick up what I can from the other Pros.


It feels right for me right now to stick to French, but God help me if I change my mind again, I’ll be ostracised from the forum! Sorry, that’s not true, I’m still angry from previous post... :?

Carmody wrote:
Thanks for sharing Peter and all the best to the family.
:D


You’re welcome, feel free to ask for more info.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:42 am

StringerBell wrote:PM, would you be willing to sum up how much by natives/for natives French media have you read or listened to compared to courses/material for language learners?

Native French media:
-how many TV series or # of episodes
-how many movies or YT videos
-how many books or #pages and what kind (a YA novel vs. non-fiction adult book, for example)
-how many newspapers, magazines, blogs, forums, etc...
-how many podcasts

I know it will be difficult to list everything, but even just a ballpark estimate would be really useful. I've never seen you specify what native material you use or how much you use it compared to how much language-learning/course material you're doing (apologies if you have already listed all this stuff somewhere). I know you've mentioned that you do listen and read in French, but the fact that you're struggling with French TV shows and audiobooks has me really confused about what you're actually doing if you are living in the language.


Hi StringerBell. Here are my 2018 stats below, which you may have already seen in a recent post. I tend to break things down statistically only into time on task, not pages, not names or types of books for example. The Super Challenge does record the details, however, for what I have entered into twitter for the SC bot (not everything) .

From 2014 to 2017, stats were somewhat similar to 2018, except I did more overall hours (i’m avoiding posting them, as it’s fiddly to post) and I did more courses the further back you go (and less reading in contrast). If you were looking for something else, i.e. more specific, well in the Super Challenge you can see my breakdown here of what I’ve read and watched: my SC results and breakdown

2018 TOTALS
Extensive reading: 194 hours 41min
Television: 178hrs 13min
Courses: 125hrs 18min
Audio courses (commuting): 98hrs 37min
Podcasts (commuting and other): 72hrs 34min
Exclusive vocab study: 24hrs 20min
Intensive reading: 23hrs 18min
Audio books: 6hrs 14min

TOTAL: 751hrs 52min

So, you can see my podcast time, my time spent watching TV (which would be roughly half to 2/3 the time watching news, the rest series predominantly with the odd film). Reading has been 90% of the time chldren’s books, 5% non-fiction and fiction books (not children’s) and perhaps 5% reading websites - news usually - RFI Journal en français facile or Mondialisation.ca (just to balance out that mainstream media BS with a different angle).
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