Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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21 Mar 2018

1. Have you tried listening to mock C1 audio? I have a C2 one and I think it's within your ability.

22 Mar 2018

Non, je n'ai pas encore essayer d'écouter ce type d'audio. Si tu as envie de le faire, envoie-le-moi, je veux dire ce que tu m'as mentionné. Je voudrais tenter ma chance.

22 Mar 2018

1. mock audio
http://www.ciep.fr/en/dalf/sample-papers

[iguanamon]

Wow, PM, when you rant, you don't fool around! Back a few years ago, when you would have angst about flashcards, I was encouraging you to drop them and read and listen more, which you weren't going to do. You just don't like reading and that's probably one of the most important methods learners who live far from a TL country use to gain more vocabulary and intuit grammar. You don't really like television, who can blame you! It hasn't been called a "vast wasteland" for nothing! Still, for me and others- whether I like it or not, it is very useful. So, there's another good learning resource that I and others have used effectively that isn't helpful for you. Had you been living in France or a French-speaking country, I believe that the gaps you have would've been filled in more quickly and you would have advanced more quickly learning from people instead of people's media.

Ok, so you haven't utilized what many of us use to help us learn. What you have done (while living in Australia), to me, with years of having watched your progress, is amazing. You have reached B2 in French despite not liking reading and despite not watching much of television series or devouring podcasts. I would venture that your accomplishments are greater than mine in this regard. You have proven that there is more than one way to learn a language and that determination and grit are both very important elements to have. I couldn't learn a language like you have done if I didn't like reading and listening to native materials. It is such an important part of what I do. That makes you, in many ways, a better learner than I am. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't recommend your learning style to most beginners, but for someone in a similar situation to you... they could do well to follow your advice. Even those of us who do like making native materials an important part of our learning could do well to follow some of your example- ok, I ain't doing 20 courses, but still there's a lot of value to getting a great grasp on pronunciation and the basics.

Like most rants, there's a lot of truth in what you say, but there's also "missing the forest for the trees". We often can't see what we've done right for focusing on what we perceive to be our shortcomings. Personally, based on my observations over the years of you and others, I believe you are your own worst critic. You didn't think you passed B2 and you did. You'll pass C1, but yes... you'll have to work on your weaknesses. The good news is that those weaknesses will be made apparent with practice exams and perhaps working with a tutor again which you said was helpful and enjoyable the last time. You'll find your way to resolve them. Don't get too discouraged. You've done well. You are just as good a learner as, or maybe even a better learner than, any of us here. Yeah, you probably spent too much time on courses, but you just learn differently... and that's ok. Stop comparing yourself to everyone else here. We're different. We're not you. Hang in there, PM, and keep up the good work. You'll get there.

[Carmody]

PeterMollenburg
I think I would be completely stupid to ignore the elephant in the room... i.e. I could seriously be kinda stupid. Or at least stupid when it comes to learning languages. Perhaps I’ll be a lot smarter with the ensuing languages (if I ever get there), or I could just be stupid all round, plain and simple. Still, stupid or not, I will keep pursuing what I am trying to obtain. Oh, and on the hours thing, I remember Cavesa saying that reaching C1/C2 requires around 2 super challenges. Ummm... that’s a lot of hours in itself. So the hours are utter bullshit.

Peter, thank you for sharing your thoughts....So say I...I just wish there were some way I could focus on the work and control the constant mind babbling that I have going on that tells me I am not smart enough. It is not easy.

[Cavesa]

Now, why did I burn out? I doubt it was perfectionism, as I really have not stuck to my multiple routines for more than a week at a time I think. Burn out was due to other stupid things as discussed earlier, like not sleeping properly. And my definition of language learning burn out does not fit all the emotional, depressive, complete exhaustion description that I think Ogrim provided. In actual fact, I don’t think I exhausted myself via language study barely at all, I think it was everything else. Late nights, early mornings, looking after kids, working, next to no days off (of either working or looking after kids). I love my kids, I don’t love my work (nor completely hate it either), these things are not the problem. My extremes are.

Well, that actually sounds like that burn out described by psychologists and psychiatrists, I think you shouldn't dismiss the option lightly, if I may dare to suggest. Don't forget people are not textbook copies, so you definitely don't need to have all the symptomes, especially at the earlier phases, and the earlier you find out, the better is your prognosis.

The first phase of burn out is exactly perfectionism, combined with long hours, and not following the well known health recommendations, such as getting enough sleep, no time just for yourself, no days off. Loving one's job (and I am 100% convinced that being an active and caring parent is more than equal to a full job and can be just as exhausting, so you basically have two jobs. or three, as you've got a new one recently. and all of them are about caring for others), that is actually either the prodrome, cause, or the first stage, depending on what sources you are reading. The repetitiveness of the work adds to it. And as you are a nurse, if I remember correctly, you are a part of the most endangered population.

As I wrote in that thread, I think most of us here are not that likely to experience the true burn out caused by language learning (it is usually mostly the "I am bored and not progressing and feel like giving up" situation). I think most people experiencing burn out here have "caught it" elsewhere, and it just secondarily spreads to the language learning. It is like that for me and other too, from what I've been able to observe.

Basically, the first phase of the burn out is what our society admires and what we tend to support each other in doing and what we tend to take for the standard we must stick to. Whether it is doing our jobs too perfectly and at the expense of our relax and well being, or caring about our loved ones well enough to be satisfied about it.

Now, series. Still not that comprehensible, really. Probably because I either lack patience, time, or focus or even all three. Books, still not a breeze. Ah-ha, that’s it! Maybe? I spent waaaaaaaaay too long on courses, like everyone was telling me. Oh, btw, I’ve started another job a few days back (one i’ve done casually before, but now on a short term contract). I drive around (as a nurse), visiting patients in their homes... yeah well, and doing pretty straight forward nursing stuff. Good thing is, i’ve got time to listen to French in the car between house calls. Two days ago I did nearly a total of 2.5 hours. Yesterday 1.5 hrs. But, hey, you know me, not listening to advanced stuff, just Glossika (yet another course). Mind you it’s great for speech production (shadowing, whatever you want to call it), but it’s no advanced podcast. I’m telling you now, I am not a C1 nor a C2, and the next dickhead that says you can reach German C2 with 600 to 750 hours study, or French C2 in 600 hours... well I won’t do anything really, but probably verbally abuse them (because it makes me feel so good, and is so healthy) cowardly behind thousands of kilometres of internet signal and my stupid iPhone that’s recording everything I say and do.

...didn't like reading and listening to native materials. It is such an important part of what I do. That makes you, in many ways, a better learner than I am. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't recommend your learning style to most beginners, but for someone in a similar situation to you... they could do well to follow your advice. Even those of us who do like making native materials an important part of our learning could do well to follow some of your example- ok, I ain't doing 20 courses, but still there's a lot of value to getting a great grasp on pronunciation and the basics....

I copied just a part of this awesome post by iguanamon. And I'd like to add my two cents to it:

Yes, it is admirable how well you are doing despite your deslike towards the media most of us use with success. However, I don't think you have considered all the substitution options.

You hate watching motion pictures on screens. I actually admire this, as I a bit too much of a tvseries addict. But your podcasts are not enough, as you say. So, how about radio? I usually don't recommend it much and I do mind the way most teachers recommend it to any learner despite the specific difficulties and very common result being discouragement. But you obviously like a challenge. In my DALF C2, I had a radio discussion between 5 or 6 people, presenting the outcomes of an ecology summit. It was easy for me thanks to the tv series, but there is no reason not to start with stuff like that. Radio with spoken word, challenging subjects of discussion, and varying speakers who do much more than just monologues. That could serve and keep your interest. No learner podcasts (even if they are labeled B2 or C1). A radio channel for educated and clever natives, that just forces you to keep up.

You dislike books and it looks like even non fiction is a torture for you. My following suggestions are based on my observation of my boyfriend. He doesn't read books (he's borrowed one of two and been reading them for two years and a half now, since the beginning of our relationship ). But that doesn't mean he doesn't read at all. The internet is full of interesting content. He has favourite facebook pages about history, he reads some pages about popular science, and so on. Perhaps stuff like that could serve you too. It wouldn't be the book form, but it would still need to be challenging and come in great amounts. But that should be no problem, given the tons of content in French.

About the coursebooks, I didn't find the list of your currently used ones now, so perhaps you already know them all. But as you like this way of studying and have achieved a lot with it (and I agree with Iguanamon we should all take you as a great example here), why fight it. Just get the C1 books. There is a lot of prejudices about such stuff (and people believing courses are useless from B1 up, let alone at the C levels, just because they cannot cover everything you need. Well, paracetamol usually doesn't solve the cause of a problem, but I definitely wouldn't call it useless, it is the same logic).
So, perhaps diving into several C1 courses could help you move forward. There are the Progressive books, there is a new and fresh Édito C1, there is the older Alter Ego C1, there are books by CLE focused on the individual skills, there are the exam preparation books, some of which are more like general courses actually, and I am sure this is not a complete list. As your most efficient strategy has been just sitting down and doing what most people are too lazy to do, and "simply" get through several courses per level, why don't you do it again?

[reineke]

French (summary) in 2017

Total hours: 682hrs 56min

Breakdown
French television: 167hrs 22min
Courses: 166hrs 57min
Podcasts: 103hrs 19min
Extensive reading: 65hrs 51min
Audio courses: 63hrs 7min
Intensive reading: 40hrs 41min
Flashcards: 34hrs 52min
Vocabulary study in isolation: 21hrs 57min
Speaking: 13hrs 44min
Writing in isolation: 4hrs 36min
Audio books: 2hrs 21min

WOW!!!

You're amazing! This is a great score!
Thanks for being a constant source of inspiration to me.
I am very impressed. Above all, I admire those 167 hours of courses, something I need to push myself harder at. And 40h41min of intensive reading are beyond my imagination!

It’s always nice to have one’s efforts validated...Happy 2018 everyone! Now, I’m really getting serious...

Now, series. Still not that comprehensible, really. Probably because I either lack patience, time, or focus or even all three. Books, still not a breeze. Ah-ha, that’s it! Maybe? I spent waaaaaaaaay too long on courses, like everyone was telling me...Two days ago I did nearly a total of 2.5 hours. Yesterday 1.5 hrs. But, hey, you know me, not listening to advanced stuff, just Glossika (yet another course). Mind you it’s great for speech production (shadowing, whatever you want to call it), but it’s no advanced podcast. I’m telling you now, I am not a C1 nor a C2, and the next dickhead that says you can reach German C2 with 600 to 750 hours study, or French C2 in 600 hours...

...didn't like reading and listening to native materials. It is such an important part of what I do....

I copied just a part of this awesome post by iguanamon. And I'd like to add my two cents to it:

Yes, it is admirable how well you are doing despite your deslike towards the media most of us use with success. However, I don't think you have considered all the substitution options.

You hate watching motion pictures on screens. I actually admire this, as I a bit too much of a tv series addict. As your most efficient strategy has been just sitting down and doing what most people are too lazy to do, and "simply" get through several courses per level, why don't you do it again?

I think I would be completely stupid to ignore the elephant in the room... i.e. I could seriously be kinda stupid. Or at least stupid when it comes to learning languages. Perhaps I’ll be a lot smarter with the ensuing languages (if I ever get there), or I could just be stupid all round, plain and simple. Still, stupid or not, I will keep pursuing what I am trying to obtain.

[Sarafina]

I empathise with you so much. I can definitely relate. I too have lofty goals for myself but I don't put in the required time or effort in order to have a serious/realistic chance of achieving them.

One thing I've always wanted to ask is why do you need/want to have your French be at a C1/C2 level?

I understand that seems like a logical progression after passing the B2. It's nice accomplishment to have.

But why would it be bad if your French remains at a B2 level?

Most conversations that you'll have with native French speakers even if you were living in French speaking country don't require C levels oral proficiency. Even in your native language, how often do you debate/discuss 'la lutte contre la douleur : doit-on fixer les limites de l'insupportable' to your neighbours? (I found this on a sample paper for the oral section of a C1 paper).

I am not saying that you shouldn't want to improve your French and pass a C1/C1 exam. But there's nothing wrong with focusing on just improving your French when you can and not sitting the DALF. There are plenty of people who speak amazing French who never took the DALF for whatever reason.

Based on anecdotal stories, personal experiences with interacting with nurses in England, there are lots of nurses whose English are still at a B2 level (besides knowing the relevant specific medical vocabulary to do their job). B2 is still a pretty good level where you can still do a lot of things in your target language.

I love reading and watching movies and TV series but I still have to psych myself up to watch it in French and there are days that I avoid doing anything in French. So I can imagine how much more tedious it must be for you. When I'm too tired to read a book, I find reading an article to be quite helpful and it's challenging enough that I learn something new but short enough that I don't get bored. I am sure that there are French websites that share a similar outlook on topics like technology, information, politics as you.

If you are still set on doing a C1 exam, you should do a mock C1 exam with a tutor to see exactly close or far you are. The results can be pleasant surprise or wake up call.

[iguanamon]

...why fight it. Just get the C1 books. There is a lot of prejudices about such stuff (and people believing courses are useless from B1 up, let alone at the C levels, just because they cannot cover everything you need. Well, paracetamol usually doesn't solve the cause of a problem, but I definitely wouldn't call it useless, it is the same logic). ...

Great post by Cavesa. Yes, it goes against my normal advice but this is what you are very good at doing. Fortunately for you, French is a big language with lots of resources and even high level courses to help you. I can't believe that after all these years I'm actually recommending that you do more courses, but I think this is better for you than trying to do or like something that you don't want to do or don't like to do.

He's been missing here lately, and he hardly ever reads or comments in logs anyway, but have a look at some of s_allard's posts. He sometimes gets slammed by people who think he means that a learner only needs a very small amount of vocabulary to be proficient. His actual opinion about vocabulary is about mastery of basic vocabulary. I found these quotes to be quite illustrative. Here he's talking about some of the youtube polyglots' videos:

...What is so impressive in these interviews is overall proficiency: excellent pronunciation, fluency, impeccable grammar and good word choices. But I return to my main contention: vocabulary size is basically irrelevant, it is the ability to use words that is important. source
...A sign of a very high level of proficiency in French is precisely this ability to use these common words in sophisticated French constructions such as faire tenir, faire savoir, faire faire, se laisser faire, s'en faire, s'y faire, etc. Another sign of a high proficiency user is the presence of the pronouns en and y. Plus, of course, advanced use of pronominal verbs, not of the run-of- the-mill type called reflexive verbs, but in the form of the pseudo-passive or in impersonal constructions. And I hardly need to mention the various uses of the subjunctive mood.
All of these indicators of mastery of French have nothing to do with large sets of word families. Quite the contrary we are looking at a very tiny number of word families. This is what I call depth. Breadth is of course necessary for terminology but depth is the key to proficiency. (emphasis mine) source

B2: Can understand the main ideas of complex text on both concrete and abstract topics, including technical discussions in their field of specialization.
Can interact with a degree of fluency and spontaneity that makes regular interaction with native speakers quite possible without strain for either party.
Can produce clear, detailed text on a wide range of subjects and explain a viewpoint on a topical issue giving the advantages and disadvantages of various options.
C1: Can understand a wide range of demanding, longer clauses, and recognize implicit meaning.
Can express ideas fluently and spontaneously without much obvious searching for expressions.
Can use language flexibly and effectively for social, academic and professional purposes.
Can produce clear, well-structured, detailed text on complex subjects, showing controlled use of organizational patterns, connectors and cohesive devices.

You have passed B2. C1 is about polishing those B2 skills. That means work and practice- polishing what you have already. So, you may be a lot closer to C1 than you think. The practice books and exams are out there for a reason. Though I often disagree with some of your non-language related posts, I've seen you write very persuasively and passionately about your beliefs on certain subjects. You should try to do that in French too. You'll have to speak/write about some topic in the exam. Get some writing practice. Perhaps, you might think about writing your log here in French or finding a French-language conspiracy theory/home-schooling/nutrition forum and posting there too. Bòn chans !

[eido]

You have passed B2. C1 is about polishing those B2 skills. That means work and practice- polishing what you have already. So, you may be a lot closer to C1 than you think. The practice books and exams are out there for a reason. Though I often disagree with some of your non-language related posts, I've seen you write very persuasively and passionately about your beliefs on certain subjects. You should try to do that in French too. You'll have to speak/write about some topic in the exam. Get some writing practice. Perhaps, you might think about writing your log here in French or finding a French-language conspiracy theory/home-schooling/nutrition forum and posting there too. Bòn chans !

Writing practice is a good idea - I second that.

I think I've read your (I'm talking to Peter here) kids are young, so they probably haven't been in an AP class yet. I don't know if you have. Are you American? IB I think is the same thing, only with international certification.

In my AP Lang class, we had to write essays in 40 minutes. There were three types. What I learned was that as long as you can write well, anything goes. Try formulating an AP prompt using one of your favorite subjects and write an essay using the timer and with the guidelines specified by teachers of the class. Or use old prompts - they're available from the College Board website.

What this will teach you I think is the constructions that are used in essays. Try to observe what kids used to write theirs if you don't know what kind of language is necessary. We (or you) learn those in class by exposure, and if you look up sample responses to prompts, you'll see what past AP students have said that either got them good marks or failed them. Even better, try to find French kids' IB essays and see what they use there.

[Xenops]

I have no advice to offer, PM--I just wanted to say that I feel ya. 2018 has been nothing but frustrations for me so far, and I'm eagerly waiting for things to improve.

Not advice, just some ideas: have you considered Central America? I don't know what their stance is on vaccines or whatnot, but I've heard only good things about Costa Rica.

[reineke]

"She says the jungle... it just came alive and took him."

I see a material difference between B2 and C1 that no amount of polishing can fix (unless, of course, "polishing" is a euphemism for heavy lifting). After 5000 hours of French, PM has mastered "the core". Vocabulary dimensions include depth, breadth, and speed of processing (retrieval, automatization). In order to get good at processing spoken language you need to ...process spoken language.