Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Elsa Maria » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:08 pm

overscore wrote:are there really that many false friends?


I don't know any German, so I have no idea. Maybe Kat or trui will give an answer. I think that there is a lot of overlap with vocabulary but the grammars are very different. That would be hard for me to keep straight until I was really strong in one of them. But, hey, we're all different.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:25 am

Thanks for the input guys. I've studied both German and Dutch, but never together. I've also studied French, Spanish and Dutch at the same time but rarely had any confusion, if it all. The occasional slip of the tongue. However I never reached the intermediate or advanced levels simultaneously, and I'd imagine that trying to learn both the subjunctive in French and Spanish at the same time would be a real problem. Fortunately that's not likely to be as much of an issue now, given my French level.

For Dutch and German I'd assume I'd not mix them up, as I've a good record of keeping languages separate. However I'd be nervous about ever learning Italian and Spanish alongside each other, or Norwegian and Swedish or Danish together. I think if I end up learning German and Dutch together and come into some serious conflict between the two, I'll just ditch German.

I'm thinking my order of importance goes like this:
French (must not go backwards, preferably keep advancing)
Dutch
Norwegian + Spanish
German

Therefore, were I to attempt to learn them all alongside each other, German would be the first to be dropped. If the problem persisted in German's absence then I'd have to consider dropping Norwegian or Spanish, or even both. French must always be there, but how much it will be present in my intensive study routine is up in the air and depends in part any exam results (and which level taken) in November. Dutch is highly important too and I'm not willing to drop it (once I take it on more seriously).

I'm wondering whether I could put French into a kind of maintenance/slow growing mode, since it is the second working language of the family, in which i'm always in touch with the language outside of intensive study anyway - reading with the kids, some of my own reading, watching here and there, podcasts etc. Whether I can find time to improve my level would remain to be seen, and again whether it's a 'need' will again depend on November.

French aside, I'm hypothesising a 45min x 4 language intensive study routine. 45 minutes for 4 languages (NL, ES, NO, DE), would provide 500 hours of study (547 to be precise, but if I allow for interruptions...) in two years. I'd likely reach B1 in all four and maybe go close to B2 in NL and maybe even ES as well, both due to previous study. Can I do it, is the question, is it manageable?

As mentioned, if DE/NL became an issue, i'd simply drop DE. If NO also meant interference with NL, NO would be dropped, and ES if I just become frustrated with slow progress in more than two languages, but NL must remain and I'd like to still advanced gradually with FR. Why am I pondering all five languages now?

I've done French solely for so long, I'm getting major wanderlust and given a possible move to EU in just over 2 years, I'm thinking it might be nicer to arrive with 5 languages under my belt at B1-sh (+ for some) for employment opportunities than just 2 (FR + NL) at a more advanced level.... Really, it's probably more about wanderlust than anything, but it could open up a door or two.

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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby rdearman » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:35 am

I wouldn't start out going full-throttle on all that. I'd advise just doing French and concentrate on getting your C1/2 exam out of the way. Meanwhile, just do 15 minutes of Dutch every day. No more and you should only get to do Dutch as a reward for completion of your C1/2 studies in French each day. 15 minutes will allow you to build up a respectable level of Dutch, and meanwhile the French goes forward toward C1/2 until you've passed the examination.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:45 am

rdearman wrote:I wouldn't start out going full-throttle on all that. I'd advise just doing French and concentrate on getting your C1/2 exam out of the way. Meanwhile, just do 15 minutes of Dutch every day. No more and you should only get to do Dutch as a reward for completion of your C1/2 studies in French each day. 15 minutes will allow you to build up a respectable level of Dutch, and meanwhile the French goes forward toward C1/2 until you've passed the examination.


My plan is to wait until after the French exam in November whether I pass or fail before taking on any more languages including Dutch. The only language other than French that I will dabble in very occasionally before the exam, will be reading the odd Dutch story to the kids. I won’t be intensively or even extensively studying any language except French until November.

The reason I most certainly will introduce other languages pass or fail post November exam is that, I feel I’ve done enough years of French only and as my studying is less focused/determined these days than in the beginning first couple of years of French, continuing multiple hours of French each day brings limited returns to the point that the difference between one hour/day of French and three is minimal. I might as well start one or more other languages.

If I miserably fail C1 in November, I’ll likely maintain one hour per day of French after the exam, and if on the other hand I pass C2 with flying colours, I may go as far as doing no intensive French studying and actively working to maintain the language through reading, TV, podcasts, activities in stolen moments and so forth, while I have some fun with new languages.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby rdearman » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:15 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:If I miserably fail C1 in November, I’ll likely maintain one hour per day of French after the exam, and if on the other hand I pass C2 with flying colours, I may go as far as doing no intensive French studying and actively working to maintain the language through reading, TV, podcasts, activities in stolen moments and so forth, while I have some fun with new languages.

I thought you had to pick an examination to take? E.g you couldn't take a test and they say: Oh you're C1 not C2.

I thought you had to take the C1 test and if you fail it tough, you lost your money and you had to try again. Same with C2...
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby DaveAgain » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:26 pm

rdearman wrote:I thought you had to pick an examination to take? E.g you couldn't take a test and they say: Oh you're C1 not C2.

I thought you had to take the C1 test and if you fail it tough, you lost your money and you had to try again. Same with C2...
There is the TCF test, that just gives you a grade.

Sctroyenne took one for her Quebec visa.

https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 687#p21687
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:57 pm

rdearman wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:If I miserably fail C1 in November, I’ll likely maintain one hour per day of French after the exam, and if on the other hand I pass C2 with flying colours, I may go as far as doing no intensive French studying and actively working to maintain the language through reading, TV, podcasts, activities in stolen moments and so forth, while I have some fun with new languages.

I thought you had to pick an examination to take? E.g you couldn't take a test and they say: Oh you're C1 not C2.

I thought you had to take the C1 test and if you fail it tough, you lost your money and you had to try again. Same with C2...


Yes, you are correct, but I haven’t decided whether I’m going to sit the C1, C2 or even both. I will decide as I get closer based on a mixture of preparation, confidence/lack of confidence and feedback from tutors yet to be obtained.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:21 pm

Right now I perhaps should be getting on with catching up with the Tour de France, or going to bed as I am actually more tired than I should be, but obviously I need some rest.....

I want to talk about my new multi-lingual language learning plan even though I should be immersing myself in French exam prep and be focused on the task at hand... This plan will kick off late November 2019.

************************************************************************************************
Version française :

PROJET DE CINQ LANGUES

le français
le norvégien
le néerlandais
l'espagnol
l'allemand

Les règles
* 5 langues au total.
* 3 heures d'études intensives chaque jour divisées en 4 séances de 45 minutes.
* 4 langues seront étudiées activement, par roulement.
* 1 langue sera mise en suspens chaque mois.
* Dès que la langue qui a été mise en suspens pendant un mois sera reprise, je l'étudierai deux fois (deux séances de 45 minutes) chaque tournée de langues, alors que les autres ne seront étudiées qu'une fois chaque tournée. Au même moment une autre langue sera mise en attente.
* Alors, le premier mois aura l'air comme ça :

Les quatre langues activement étudiée :
le français le néerlandais (le FR en suspens le 1er mois, le NL sera étudié 2 fois chaque tournée, jusqu'au prochain mois)
le norvégien
le néerlandais
l'espagnol
l'allemand

Ainsi, les séances, par roulement :
45 min de néerlandais
45 min de norvégien
45 min de néerlandais
45 min d'espagnol
45 min d'allemand

Si je commençais lundi, par exemple, les trois premiers jours apparaîtrait comme ce qu'on voit ci-dessous :
LUNDI
45 min de néerlandais (total = 45 min)
45 min de norvégien (total = 1.5 hrs)
45 min de néerlandais (total = 2 hrs, 15 min)
45 min d'espagnol (total = 3 hrs)

MARDI
45 min d'allemand (total = 45 min)
45 min de néerlandais (total = 1.5 hrs)
45 min de norvégien (total = 2 hrs, 15 min)
45 min de néerlandais (total = 3 hrs)

MERCREDI
45 min d'espagnol (total = 45 min)
45 min d'allemand (total = 1.5 hrs)
45 min néerlandais (total = 2 hrs, 15 min)
45 min norvégien (total = 3 heures)

ETC
Le prochain mois, le français serait reprise et je l'étudierais en deux séances de 45 minutes chaque tournée de langues, le néerlandais serait étudié pendant 45 minutes seulement une fois chaque tournée de langues et une autre langue serait mise en suspens (l'allemand, par exemple).


English version (same as French version, just written in English):

FIVE LANGUAGE PROJECT

French
Norwegian
Dutch
Spanish
German

The Rules
* 5 languages in total.
* 3 hours of intensive study each day, divided into 4 sessions of 45 minutes
* 4 languages will be studied actively, alternating through them.
* 1 language will be suspended each month.
* As soon as the language which was suspended for a month is taken up again, I will study it twice (two 45 minute sessions) each round of languages, while the others will only be studied once per round of languages. Meanwhile another language will be put on hold.

* Therefore, the first month will look like this:

The four languages actively studied:
French Dutch (FR suspended for the first month, NL to be studied twice each round of languages, until the next month)
Norwegian
Dutch
Spanish
German

Thus, the sessions, alternating through:
45 min of Dutch
45 min of Norwegian
45 min of Dutch
45 min of Spanish
45 min of German

If I started on Monday, for example, the first three days would appear like below:
MONDAY
45 min of Dutch (total = 45 min)
45 min of Norwegian (total = 1.5 hrs)
45 min of Dutch (total = 2 hrs, 15 min)
45 min of Spanish (total = 3 hrs)

TUESDAY
45 min of German (total = 45 min)
45 min of Dutch (total = 1.5 hrs)
45 min of Norwegian (total = 2 hrs, 15 min)
45 min of Dutch (total = 3 hrs)

WEDNESDAY
45 min of Spanish (total = 45 min)
45 min of German (total = 1.5 hrs)
45 min of Dutch (total = 2 hrs, 15 min)
45 min of Norwegian (total = 3 hrs)

ETC
The next month, French would be back and studied in 2 sessions of 45 min through each round of languages, Dutch would return to one 45 min session and another language would be suspended for the month (eg German).
************************************************************************************************

A couple of points.
*Why all languages at once? First, because we're intending to go to Europe around 2022, and I'd like to arrive with a good smattering of several languages under my belt as opposed to being advanced in perhaps only 2 languages. Secondly, I'd like to start teaching my kids more about other languages and more of other languages, and for this I feel a slow growth of several languages at once is better than an all out assault on another language all the way to an advanced level which could take several years. I'm also motivated to try this, as opposed to sticking to just one or two languages. Motivation counts for a lot.

*Why 45 minute sessions? An hour seems a little long when learning five languages. 45 minutes always for less time between study sessions before coming back to language XYZ the next time. 30 minutes seems too short to progress enough within a session.

*Why suspend a language each month? I wanted to incorporate/try some of the theory behind the 'bow-wave effect' by cycling a language out of active study each month. It may make for more progress on the whole, as breaks can be stale. Years of consistent French have taught me that breaks are worth a shot because I've become a little stale at times.

*I reserve the right to fail at this. Try not to criticise without reflection (still, valid questioning is welcome) - it's worth a try, right?

*I reserve the right to add or remove languages. German may conflict with Dutch, so I might decide to learn Russian or Arabic instead. I might feel I can add more languages and be happy with even slower progress forward. I might get frustrated and want to reduce the number back to 4,3,2 or 1. Who knows, but it's worth trying, I think, even if to only learn that it's not practical.

*Were I to not miss a day, I'd learn 219 hours of each language each year. Not awesome, not miserable.

* I plan on using predominantly French and Dutch outside of my intensive study time as my go to languages for reading, listening etc (entertainment). So these languages will still get more overall time than the rest, which is logical given they are the most important at this stage in my life.



Now, I need to get focused on the French exam in November, which by the way if I decide to skip again, this plan will still go ahead. If I fail or pass the exam, this plan will still go ahead.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby rdearman » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:32 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:*Why all languages at once? First, because we're intending to go to Europe around 2022, and I'd like to arrive with a good smattering of several languages under my belt as opposed to being advanced in perhaps only 2 languages

Technically 3 since your English is fair to middling... :D

EDIT: Also if you are going to swap out a language for German, why not another European one like Polish or perhaps Italian?
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby iguanamon » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:59 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:...This plan will kick off late November 2019.
[color=#0000FF]Version française :
PROJET DE CINQ LANGUES
le français
le norvégien
le néerlandais
l'espagnol
l'allemand

Wow, two Germanic languages at beginner levels, plus resuming Dutch?! Personally, I'd find it difficult to have any two languages on the go at beginner levels still, I'll be looking forward to see how you progress with all this on your plate :) . I do like your idea of having a smattering of those languages at least. I wonder if beginner courses are the most effective/efficient route to take for gaining a "smattering" of languages, or if mastering something like FSI/DLI "FAST" courses might be more appropriate.
PeterMollenburg wrote:...Now, I need to get focused on the French exam in November, which by the way if I decide to skip again, this plan will still go ahead. If I fail or pass the exam, this plan will still go ahead.

Sounds like fun, and a man with a plan- a PM plan, of course !
Bòn chans !
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