Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:46 pm

Tillumadoguenirurm wrote:No worries PM, I apologise too. I agree that my first message might have been clumsy. You've given me several things to think about, I'll have to come to come back to you.


Thanks Tillumadoguenirurm.
Honestly, with my first comments I was a bit too quick to comment, and in some ways am not surprised I provoked such a reaction, since I could've demonstrated a little more tact. As rash as I was though, I just want to say that I honestly wasn't attacking your character. Sometimes I rant, and I do talk a lot of self-inflated nonsense (even now I think). As for having a backbone. I've reflected and just want to say that I don't believe it's always a good thing to protect one's sense of identity, which I equate to ego, and furthermore egocentricity. Best to be humble, relfect, accept, I believe, as egocentric as I am :) It's fine for others to have whatever opinions they like of us, we ought not feel the need to defend ourselves so much, and yes I take myself too seriously :)
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:18 pm

Some negative things of late...

*I can't seem to find enough time lately to study, but that's battling tiredness, sleep deprivation, work and family... I do know the reasons, but when you have so many time constraints it's hard not to take some time out at night and stay up slightly later than you should (continually) only to find yourself (continually) woken early by kids and back in the same cycle... need to get my sleep on track once and for all. Recent tests suggest I am burnt out somewhat with adrenal fatigue.
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*Even though i'm studying a bit less lately it seems that my lazier mornings here and there are adding to pressure in the household with my indulgent endeavours. I've got to be careful not to be too selfish as there are other people in my family besides me. Needless to say I do remain selfish, I just need to get back to military style timetables in which I can tick my boxes and allow regular time for other things/people. I feel like my language study is under threat and that i'll never reach C1/C2. Progress is snails pace lately. I'd like to take the C1 next year in the first half of the year, but I think that could be a little ambitious. I seem to fly through some things in French, and my listening comprehension is still improving further, but then I read the odd article in which there are LOADS of unkown words... Man, how big is this language learning task!

Take your time you say? I agree, however I would like to pass a C1 soonish to get on with starting my next language. And Belgium still remains the aim. My wife and I realised that we've been trying to bite off more than we can chew and we need to just start saving cashola very soon for a 12 month stint in Belgium... just need to get a job there (easier said than done). Thus learning Dutch remains high on the agenda in the hopefully not too distant future.

And don't mention Emmanuel Macron.... might I just say very very very predictable. If you're a fan I respect that, honestly (let's not get into details).
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*A close relative of mine recently made a comment I was absolutely not too pleased with, stating that when around them I ought to speak English to my daughter in their presence in order that common courtesy be respected. To this day I have said around 20 words to my daughter in English (either be accident or as a last resort translation to clarify something- which i'm also not keen on anymore). In reading about raising bilingual children, it seems essential to me to create a 'need' for the minority language in the child's mind. If the child comes to understand that they can simply respond to the parent who speaks the minority language (me, French) with the dominant language (English) as they understand it perfectly well, then they will take that path of least resistance.

Thus, recently I shifted from a phase of repeat everything in French that my daughter says to me in English when speaking to me (me speaking French to her), and have her repeat that in French with my assistance, to a phase in which I encourage activation. Instead of repeating (which she was simply becoming reliant on and was great at parroting my French), i'm now asking her "en français" and if she struggles I give her clues (perhaps some words in a sentence, half words that she finishes etc). It's working, as she's gradually increasing her ability to just directly address me in French (often broken which is fine) lately and simply bypass English. To reinforce the need for French, I need to maintain the notion to her that I do not speak English with her, and thus she must communicate with me in French if she wishes to communicate with me. So switching to English with her, is simply not something I want to do, at all.

Thus, I flatly refused when I was asked to switch. When temporarily living under their household not too many years back it was made clear that there'd be no Dutch conversations between my wife and I in their household (we'd recently returned from 5 months or so in NL). This person is a monolingual English speaker, and although appears to value the idea of me teaching French to my daughter, clearly doesn't really understand it. Yes a 50 minute car trip is a confined environment (my daughter and I probably only spoke for 5 minutes- she fell asleep). Yes I understand his point, really, I absolutely do. However, too much is at stake in my opinion, and I wasn't having the former no Dutch rule under his/her household become a no French rule in his/her company with my own daughter.

A week later, some sentiments were raised with my wife referring back to that car trip. I texted him and apologised for my abrupt response citing some links to the one parent one language concept and the importance of not reverting to the majority language. I did this as in the past he seemed to be someone who liked evidence. I also spoke in lengthy messages of why it was important to me that I do not switch languages. I was told I missed the point completely and that I was basically disrespecting old fashioned values.

As a side note, I couldnt care less if someone spoke Japanese under the same roof as me (I have no clue with this language), I would think it was fantastic. But clearly, that is me.

Anyway some more messaging and more backup statistics if you will in terms of how much exposure to a language is required, how i'm barely home lately (as i'm the sole worker currently) and all the more reason to not use English, on the much less frequent occasions i'm with my daughter (compared to my wife) as the minority language speaker.

I get it, I do, and it is exclusionary as he/she described, but I won't budge. I offered constant translation or translation on request. No response to that. Anyway, I'm sure many here would actually side not with me but with the other person in question and i'm fine with that. I know i come across perhaps exceedingly strict in this policy, but that's how it is, I am not prepared to change it. And although I do feel like I can see it from that person's perspective, I do not believe they were willing at all to concede an inch and admit I had some valid points. That doesn't matter I guess. I don't spend much time with that person in confined settings like cars or small rooms, thus the 'trigger' is not likely to arise very much, and when it does I've decided to attempt translation for them to see how it goes, and get my daughter involved in translating, as I think she will find it helpful if I sell it that way.
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Some positives-
*New Caledonia is still on the cards although it will really set us back financially, but we do need a holiday! And I've been wanting to go there for some time.

*We're considering a French nanny/babysitter at some point.... it's a wishful aspiration but it may happen here and there.
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby Cavesa » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:44 pm

The only thing I would be worried about would be your non-native French, as you are not in the C levels yet. However, I suppose that can work, if your daughter has a lot of absolutely correct support too.

It is exclusionary, but so are so many other things. Many people feel excluded whenever an unfamiliar topic arises. Should a part of the family that knows something about science or arts stop discussing the new stuff they are excited about just because a family member isn't well educated in that area?

I definitely see your point, of course your daughter is going to take the path of the least resistence. Perhaps, the only trouble with you switching only at times, showing you do understand her English, would be the feeling of not having unconditional attention. Not having the attention normally unless she complies to the conditions and speaks French. I am not saying this as criticism, but perhaps a bit of a bit of food for thought on how to avoid this. I am not a parent yet, but I remember the childhood well. I don't know whether I say it clearly, I am just pondering it. Please excuse me, if I seem to be talking nonsense.

But when it comes to other relatives, I am a firm believer in guarding your limits and I think you explaining your position was a good step. Respectfully and with love, but still not changing to conform to their expectations that are against your well being as you see it. Experience taught me that obeying their wishes against one's own too much leads only to more wishes that are expected to be obeyed. :-D Today it's "don't talk to her in French in front of me", tommorrow it could be "don't confuse her by talking to her in French, she needs to speak English as it is everywhere around her", and later "Why on Earth do you want to leave us and your roots, and you daughter's roots, to go live in some small european country I cannot even find on the map??!"

A French babysitter is a great idea!

Man, how big is this language learning task!

Yes, it is! But I have no doubt you will get through this.
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby Elenia » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:08 pm

I'm with you and Cavesa on this one, PM. You talk to your daughter in French. The relative doesn't actually need to know what you are saying to her anyway. If you were a native French speaker, I am sure they would have no problem with you talking to your daughter in French even if you spoke the most perfect and elegant English on this planet. They wouldn't worry about being 'excluded' then. (But seriously, what do they have to do with your conversations with your daughter?)

We have a Polish family friend with a young son. She talks to him often in Polish when we're around, and she and her mum also speak in Polish together. When he was younger, he would speak to us all in a mixture of Polish and English. We never once asked her or her mum to speak in English when with us. I think that would have been incredibly rude.
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby Cavesa » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:21 pm

Yes, if you were a native French speaker, they surely wouldn't mind. :-D

A funny story I heard from friends living in Germany. Their friends, Czech natives living in Germany, were travelling by public transport. A mom and her child. They were talking in Czech. A complete stranger told them they should be speaking German. And the explanation, while put in different words, was very clearly along the lines of "You immigrated here to our better country, so you should help your child assimilate asap and forget your trash language from the second rate country". And that was a stranger!

I am just guessing here, but this may be part of the reasoning of your well meaning relative. Many English natives simply see their language as superior to others, so in that light, you seem to be harming your daughter by raising her in a less valuable one :-D It may be one more reason, on top of the exclusion. Really, a relative doesn't need to feel harmfully excluded, if they cannot understand a few minutes of "Dad, how long will it take? I am bored!" :-D
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby rdearman » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:24 pm

This reminded me of a story I heard once about two women in burkas at a train station in Cardiff are speaking to each other, and some guy says to them. "You're in England! You should be speaking English!"

Another passenger says, "Actually, you're not in England you're in Wales, and they are speaking Welsh."

Sorry to clutter up your log Peter, but couldn't help myself. Also I agree with speaking French to your daughter, but just out of curiousity, does she watch French TV and stuff with you? Or otherwise use the language "in anger"?
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:01 am

Cavesa wrote:The only thing I would be worried about would be your non-native French, as you are not in the C levels yet. However, I suppose that can work, if your daughter has a lot of absolutely correct support too.


Yes, and this is a fair concern. All I can say is I only say what I know how to say and that has become increasingly 'natural' in sound. As you probably realise I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so my accent would differ very little to a French native one, and my grammatical constructs would for the most part be correctly constructed. Vocabulary is not an issue- I either know the word or I don't. If I don't I soon find out what it is and use it. Still there remains many expressions and more complicated language that I simply don't use- mainly rarer expressions and turns of phrase (idioms, trickier verbs or verb constructs) that I'd be missing. Still, it's a very decent head start for her, and if all goes to plan, she'll hit the ground running in Belgium, if that is indeed where we end up as planned. I'd imagine after a year in a French speaking environment that her French would be close to on par with her English, provided sufficient exposure occurs (eg going to school for a year).

Cavesa wrote:It is exclusionary, but so are so many other things. Many people feel excluded whenever an unfamiliar topic arises. Should a part of the family that knows something about science or arts stop discussing the new stuff they are excited about just because a family member isn't well educated in that area?


Yes, good points indeed.

Cavesa wrote:I definitely see your point, of course your daughter is going to take the path of the least resistence. Perhaps, the only trouble with you switching only at times, showing you do understand her English, would be the feeling of not having unconditional attention. Not having the attention normally unless she complies to the conditions and speaks French. I am not saying this as criticism, but perhaps a bit of a bit of food for thought on how to avoid this. I am not a parent yet, but I remember the childhood well. I don't know whether I say it clearly, I am just pondering it. Please excuse me, if I seem to be talking nonsense.


Yep, food for thought, all good, no need to excuse yourself there for 'talking nonsense', I think i'm generally much more proficient in nonsense talk than you are!

Cavesa wrote:But when it comes to other relatives, I am a firm believer in guarding your limits and I think you explaining your position was a good step. Respectfully and with love, but still not changing to conform to their expectations that are against your well being as you see it. Experience taught me that obeying their wishes against one's own too much leads only to more wishes that are expected to be obeyed. :-D Today it's "don't talk to her in French in front of me", tommorrow it could be "don't confuse her by talking to her in French, she needs to speak English as it is everywhere around her", and later "Why on Earth do you want to leave us and your roots, and you daughter's roots, to go live in some small european country I cannot even find on the map??!"


Thanks for your supportive point of view Cavesa :)

Cavesa wrote:A French babysitter is a great idea!

:)

Cavesa wrote:
Man, how big is this language learning task!

Yes, it is! But I have no doubt you will get through this.


Thanks for your vote of confidence! :)
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:04 am

rdearman wrote:This reminded me of a story I heard once about two women in burkas at a train station in Cardiff are speaking to each other, and some guy says to them. "You're in England! You should be speaking English!"

Another passenger says, "Actually, you're not in England you're in Wales, and they are speaking Welsh."

Sorry to clutter up your log Peter, but couldn't help myself. Also I agree with speaking French to your daughter, but just out of curiousity, does she watch French TV and stuff with you? Or otherwise use the language "in anger"?


This made me laugh! I had to tell my wife straight away. Sad thing is, I could totally see this happening both in the UK and in Australia in general, the 'speak English' (angry interjection with a stranger type scenario) with lack of cultural respect to others attitude seems to definitely exist in pockets throughout this country. So much so, I'd not be surprised that were I to live in particular country towns in this country, I'd feel a bit uneasy about speaking French in public to my daughter.
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:09 am

Elenia wrote:I'm with you and Cavesa on this one, PM. You talk to your daughter in French. The relative doesn't actually need to know what you are saying to her anyway.


Thank you Elenia. And yes! This is totally my frame of mind. Why on earth (putting it kindly) must you insist on knowing everything that is being said? Is your paranoia or need to know that high of a demand? (rhetorical). I just think it's a little, what's the word?... obsessive or something like that.

Elenia wrote:If you were a native French speaker, I am sure they would have no problem with you talking to your daughter in French even if you spoke the most perfect and elegant English on this planet. They wouldn't worry about being 'excluded' then. (But seriously, what do they have to do with your conversations with your daughter?)


I'm actually not convinced he/she wouldn't make the same demand, were I a French native. I think he/she would to be perfectly honest. And yes indeed, what does he/she have to do with my conversations with my daughter?! (even in close proximity).

Elenia wrote:We have a Polish family friend with a young son. She talks to him often in Polish when we're around, and she and her mum also speak in Polish together. When he was younger, he would speak to us all in a mixture of Polish and English. We never once asked her or her mum to speak in English when with us. I think that would have been incredibly rude.


Perhaps it's more understood (sometimes) in Europe, or more likely to be respected in Europe than in large monolingual English speaking countries. It's nice of you to share this with me, thanks Elenia.
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:15 am

Cavesa wrote:Yes, if you were a native French speaker, they surely wouldn't mind. :-D

A funny story I heard from friends living in Germany. Their friends, Czech natives living in Germany, were travelling by public transport. A mom and her child. They were talking in Czech. A complete stranger told them they should be speaking German. And the explanation, while put in different words, was very clearly along the lines of "You immigrated here to our better country, so you should help your child assimilate asap and forget your trash language from the second rate country". And that was a stranger!

I am just guessing here, but this may be part of the reasoning of your well meaning relative. Many English natives simply see their language as superior to others, so in that light, you seem to be harming your daughter by raising her in a less valuable one :-D It may be one more reason, on top of the exclusion. Really, a relative doesn't need to feel harmfully excluded, if they cannot understand a few minutes of "Dad, how long will it take? I am bored!" :-D


I actually do believe there is a cultural superiority complex going on here as you describe. Although he/she claims he/she is indeed proud that my daughter will be bilingual, there have often been times that a cultural arrogance has arisen pretty openly attempting to point out that English speaking culture (not just Australian, but also going back to England/Scotland and so on) is superior. It's not redneck go back to where you came from style attitude but it's something of an arrogant belief that English is best. I do not believe he/she is racist per se, as he/she is highly educated and highly successful in their employment as well. In the end I think it comes down to these ingredients: linguistic/cultural superior beliefs, paranoia mixed with a belief that it's exclusionary and a profound lack of empathetic understanding of where I am coming from.
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