Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
User avatar
reineke
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3570
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:34 pm
Languages: Fox (C4)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6979
x 6554

Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French, Dutch and Arabic

Postby reineke » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:07 pm

Xmmm wrote:
Seneca



Seneca would love this place.

Veni
Vidi
Fugi
1 x

User avatar
Expugnator
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1728
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:45 pm
Location: Belo Horizonte
Languages: Native Brazilian Portuguese#advanced fluency English, French, Papiamento#basic fluency Italian, Norwegian#intermediate Spanish, German, Georgian and Chinese (Mandarin)#basic Russian, Estonian, Greek (Modern)#just started Indonesian, Hebrew (Modern), Guarani
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9931
x 3589

Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French, Dutch and Arabic

Postby Expugnator » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:31 pm

Sorry if I added up to the rant and PM's log's derailing, I thought it was over. I didn't mean any criticism, cynicism or sarcasm.

I might agree with most of what you said, PM, but I just don't think this is the place for that.

Moreover, I think if you had added 10 minutes a day on Dutch consistently from 2011 you'd probably be a B2 at Dutch as well by now. You probably needed to be so strict on yourself about language learning in order to avoid an even more constant change of plans, and you had to apply the one-language-rule to its extreme, and it might have been essential for you to reach the level you had in French now, but in the long run it's counterintuitive to my ears. I'm glad you're adding up new languages now. I still hold that perfectionism does more harm than good. I'm a perfectionist in other fields and that prevents me from doing a lot more. I'm not perfectionist about language learning, though I'm a bit so when it comes to finding the ideal circumstances for speaking and writing. No wonder I'm stuck at those skills for my languages.

If you ever decide to get to Spanish, there are some great conspiracy podcasts waiting for you.

Ogrim wrote:Expugnator, I hope you did not think I was part of the "multiple-languages-learners'" bashing - my little rabbit story was on the contrary a (failed?) humorous attempt at showing that learning multiple languages is possible, as long as you focus on one at a time. In any case, I normally don't try to convince others to do this or that - I admire your ability to study so many languages in parallel, it is absolutely amazing, but I also admired PM's persistency and focus on French for so long, resisting any wanderlust. We are all different, and need to find out what works for us as individuals.


Yes, it was an innocent joke related to the fact you'd be using the same textbooks. I still hold that it's possible to learn multiple languages in parallel, so we agree to disagree.

iguanamon wrote:In regards to the forum specifically, yes, self-censorship is the price we pay for having a nice place to visit without having to deal with the crap on the rest of the internet. Here, the forum is all about languages and language-learning. We grow into a community with this one aspect in common. Outside of the forum we are quite diverse. We are so diverse that if we open that pandora's box of "come on, we're all adults here we can talk about politics and such without any worries" it almost always ends up badly. We make friends here and as a result we often feel like we are probably like minded because of our interaction around and about language-learning... so, it follows that our other interactions outside of language-learning will be fine too? That's not necessarily so in such a diverse, international forum.


Wholeheartedly agree with you on this. We probably have different views on what is good for my own country, so I'm not really looking forward to discussing Brazilian politics with you, for example.

As for multiple language learning, I was a monolingual myself. When I started all this, my English wasn't at the C levels yet (you can check an early one of my logs at HTLAL. Had I decided to keep at one language - it could have been French or Georgian or Mandarin - from 2012, I probably would be at a similar level to what I am now, maybe 1 level higher, and I wouldn't have learned any of the other languages I did ever since. Did I struggle at times? Yes I did, I mentioned it more than once in my logs. Still, that was my path and that was how I found out how to handle the routine I have now.

There's always a risk with having some language-learning rules set in stone, some advice sold out as absolute rule, some crystalization of what it means to be a good language learner that may turn into just a set of commandments, delivered as The Truth to every beginner and in the end turning into a LLORG way of thinking. Discussing friendly and keeping an open mind tends to be a better way to get to know oneself and each other and to promote collective learning.
12 x
Corrections welcome for any language.

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8029

Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and a tad of other languages

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:47 am

It seems fitting for me to add another post at this point in time...

I've not done much study for... i'm not sure how long... perhaps it's nearly two months, I don't really care, as I've lost track of time. I do care about my study, but I didn't mind taking a break, I just don't know how long it was and can't be bothered counting something that seems unnecessary.

Mind you, I was keeping in touch with French almost daily, just not sitting down at my desk to study (same for any other languages). While working (driving) I was listening to French and Dutch and even some Norwegian (because I couldn't resist).

It's funny, yesterday, as a family we drove half an hour to some unknown small national park to get out of the house and do something active in nature. On the way I put on Pimsleur's Norwegian and the family (myself, my two kids, my wife) were all imitating the Norwegian. Yes even my little under two year old, was mimicking the sounds.

So, yesterday I thought, it's time to start studying again, now that I'm satisfied I've compiled a pretty decent repertoire of electronic resources in French, Dutch, German, Spanish, Arabic and Norwegian. I'll continue to build on it, but it's pretty beefy now. I even figured out how to make some PDF's of some of my books which I couldn't find ebook versions of. Yes, I've said it before, i'm not a huge fan of electronic devices, but as I've also said, most things that are bad for us (i know, many of you don't agree) are sold to us as a convenience all the while we are getting screwed and we just don't know it. But of course, portability is a major plus.

So I started Fluenz French 5 yesterday, the only level of Fluenz I've not completed and did some Hugo Dutch in 3 Months as well as Dutch VocabuLearn. I'm also reading, watching/listening etc in French and using Glossika level 3 now in the car.

Speaking to a real life living actual French person the other day, I specifically asked for some pronunciation feed-back. She was the second French person in the last couple of weeks who stated that I sounded Belgian. This French woman clarified further and stated "but not necessarily Walloon, but in fact Flemish, as your French 'r' is too strong". She went on to provide examples ("don't say it so strong, just lightly touch the 'r'). Thus I've been actively working to soften it.
8 x

Skynet
Green Belt
Posts: 310
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:37 pm
Location: San Francisco
Languages: English (N)
Shona (N)
French (DELF B2)
German (Goethe-Zertifikat B2)
Spanish (DELE B2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=8686
x 949

Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and a tad of other languages

Postby Skynet » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:44 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:Speaking to a real life living actual French person the other day, I specifically asked for some pronunciation feed-back. She was the second French person in the last couple of weeks who stated that I sounded Belgian. This French woman clarified further and stated "but not necessarily Walloon, but in fact Flemish, as your French 'r' is too strong". She went on to provide examples ("don't say it so strong, just lightly touch the 'r'). Thus I've been actively working to soften it.

Mmmmm, I had been told (on my first thread) that Belgian and Parisian accents were indistinguishable from each other. Perhaps your Dutch is flavouring your Flemish French? ;) I recently gave up the pyrrhic war that I had waged against having a non-native French accent - it's not worth my effort. Congrats on bringing the entire family on the Pimsleur bandwagon!
2 x

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8029

Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and a tad of other languages

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:46 am

Skynet wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:Speaking to a real life living actual French person the other day, I specifically asked for some pronunciation feed-back. She was the second French person in the last couple of weeks who stated that I sounded Belgian. This French woman clarified further and stated "but not necessarily Walloon, but in fact Flemish, as your French 'r' is too strong". She went on to provide examples ("don't say it so strong, just lightly touch the 'r'). Thus I've been actively working to soften it.


Mmmmm, I had been told (on my first thread) that Belgian and Parisian accents were indistinguishable from each other. Perhaps your Dutch is flavouring your Flemish French? ;) I recently gave up the pyrrhic war that I had waged against having a non-native French accent - it's not worth my effort. Congrats on bringing the entire family on the Pimsleur bandwagon!


For me, I view it differently. I won't get into whether or not one can acquire a native-like accent. However, it's very much a part of my routine, in fact, it's automatic while using course material, to attempt to imitate as closely as possible, the pronunciation of native speakers. I enjoy doing this. I'd feel extremely odd if I weren't doing this.

If I'm told something is a little off in my pronunciation, I'll listen acutely for it in my own speech and I'll then analyse the speech of native speakers mainly through audio portions of courses and attempt to adjust my pronunciation to match more closely (ie adjust the problem phoneme), as close as possible that is, the pronunciation of the native speakers. Sometimes we can't hear something in our own pronunciation and it takes someone else to point it out for us to hear it. I always focus on attempting to move as close as possible to native-like pronunciation as I can, by focusing on audio and shadowing. The more little tweaks I can make over time, arguably the closer I'll become to sounding native-like. I really enjoy this aspect of language learning and I wouldn't want to change that about my own approach to learning languages. Everyone has different objectives, has a different personality and so on. This is certainly what I do, but it's not for everyone, and that's fine.

As for Dutch influencing my French. It's a good/valid theory, but I haven't been (re-)studying Dutch for long enough for the strong 'r' to be coming from my current Dutch learning. This isn't a recent phenomena, as I've been pronouncing the 'r' this way for some time, perhaps years - I knew it was strong, but it took someone else to point it out, to realise it was in fact too strong. Dutch may not be influencing my French now, but it may have been the reason I began pronouncing the 'r' the way I do, since some years back when Dutch was the main focus, I certainly became adept at producing guttural Dutch sounds. For the record I've never really felt that I've had language interference, although I do feel sometimes that my native English does indeed influence my pronunciation and of course I strive to eliminate such influence. I'm not totally certain why I do this, I guess it's a perfectionist thing perhaps, but the odd thing is I quite like a nice accent in a foreigner learning/speaking English, provided it doesn't strongly hinder communication.
4 x

User avatar
tastyonions
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1572
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:39 pm
Location: Dallas, TX
Languages: EN (N), FR, ES, DE, IT, PT, NL, EL
x 3853

Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and a tad of other languages

Postby tastyonions » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:32 pm

I have also noticed that people who achieve a correct pronunciation of the French R will sometimes "overdo" it a bit. Curiously I sometimes seem to hear this in young (native) Francophone children as well -- a very strong R in phonetic contexts where most adults would "lighten" it.
2 x

User avatar
Exasperated
White Belt
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), German (C1), Italian (beginner)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=2074
x 79

Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby Exasperated » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:57 am

Hi Peter,

After a mammoth trawl from page 105 to here over the last couple of days, it felt almost rude not to pop by and say hi!

Funnily I distinctly remember reading your log back on the old site in my heavy lurking days mid 2014 - as a fellow Australian who also harboured ambitions of professional competency and European visa challenges it definitely stood out.

I've not got any particular insight, but I wanted to say that I wish you all the best. Your dedication and hard-work over such a period is extremely admirable; and the consistency you showed trekking towards your goal (however much you personally felt it wavered) I found very inspiring.
1 x

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8029

Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:32 am

Exasperated wrote:Hi Peter,

After a mammoth trawl from page 105 to here over the last couple of days, it felt almost rude not to pop by and say hi!

Funnily I distinctly remember reading your log back on the old site in my heavy lurking days mid 2014 - as a fellow Australian who also harboured ambitions of professional competency and European visa challenges it definitely stood out.

I've not got any particular insight, but I wanted to say that I wish you all the best. Your dedication and hard-work over such a period is extremely admirable; and the consistency you showed trekking towards your goal (however much you personally felt it wavered) I found very inspiring.


Thank you Exasperated. I truly appreciate the positive feedback.

How is your language journey/learning going if you are on one? (if you want to comment, if not, no probs).

I'm surprised sometimes when I read that people are actually interested in reading even some parts of my log. It makes me think, okay, maybe I have something useful to say after all from time to time (other times, perhaps not), and maybe it's worth sticking around. I say that in part because I often harbour feelings of just pissing off into oblivion and some of those reasons are probably attention seeking while others are more attention avoidance. Anyway, inspiration is certainly a positive thing, I feel.

I'm currently attempting to get back into a little bit more of a serious routine again. As I type this I was contemplating doing some more Fluenz French 5, and I think I've just decided to go to sleep early and perhaps read a few pages of a French book as I wind down instead since I'm somewhat exhausted.

You know in some ways I do feel I missed my mark, as I didn't obtain the C-level certificate(s) I was chasing (yet?), but in other ways I'm so impressed with where I am at, particularly in relation to my children who speak only French with me. No, I'm not perfect, but it's certainly not an easy feat to take yourself up to a high enough level with extremely little native speaker interaction and then have your children speak to you in this language all day every day (okay when I am around). I'm not boasting, honestly, just stating it how it is, and that is pretty content, but oddly still not quite satisfied.

Anyway thanks again Exasperated, I hope your language learning is indeed going well. As iguanamon often points out being consistent is one of the most important ingredients in language learning. So 10 seconds a day, and you'll be right :shock: Hmmm, maybe 11.

Throw a chook over your middle shoulder.
5 x

User avatar
Exasperated
White Belt
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), German (C1), Italian (beginner)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=2074
x 79

Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby Exasperated » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:45 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:
Thank you Exasperated. I truly appreciate the positive feedback.

How is your language journey/learning going if you are on one? (if you want to comment, if not, no probs).

I'm surprised sometimes when I read that people are actually interested in reading even some parts of my log. It makes me think, okay, maybe I have something useful to say after all from time to time (other times, perhaps not), and maybe it's worth sticking around. I say that in part because I often harbour feelings of just pissing off into oblivion and some of those reasons are probably attention seeking while others are more attention avoidance. Anyway, inspiration is certainly a positive thing, I feel.

I'm currently attempting to get back into a little bit more of a serious routine again. As I type this I was contemplating doing some more Fluenz French 5, and I think I've just decided to go to sleep early and perhaps read a few pages of a French book as I wind down instead since I'm somewhat exhausted.

You know in some ways I do feel I missed my mark, as I didn't obtain the C-level certificate(s) I was chasing (yet?), but in other ways I'm so impressed with where I am at, particularly in relation to my children who speak only French with me. No, I'm not perfect, but it's certainly not an easy feat to take yourself up to a high enough level with extremely little native speaker interaction and then have your children speak to you in this language all day every day (okay when I am around). I'm not boasting, honestly, just stating it how it is, and that is pretty content, but oddly still not quite satisfied.

Anyway thanks again Exasperated, I hope your language learning is indeed going well. As iguanamon often points out being consistent is one of the most important ingredients in language learning. So 10 seconds a day, and you'll be right :shock: Hmmm, maybe 11.

Throw a chook over your middle shoulder.


It's been a fascinating read - I've personally gotten a lot out of it. It would be a real shame for you to leave, there are any number of people (both silent and vocal) who are invested in your continued success - I think sharing the ups/downs/backflips of such a big endeavour gives a back a great deal to the community; even with the occasional controversial opinion thrown in for good measure :D

The C-level certificate is an interesting question - would it scratch the itch/ grant some closure (a terrible term to describe a perpetual learning process)? Maybe? I have the same thoughts about German, I'm in such a great place with the language, can do virtually everything I would like; yet there is the slightest lingering sense of unfinished business. Yet at the same time the necessary preparation, time and financial investment just don't seem to justify the payoff. Not to mention, I suspect those feelings stem from a comparison of the native language to L2 which will always throw the discrepancy into contrast; and a piece of paper is unlikely to do much about that - beyond the initial surge of (well justified) pride of course.

In regards to my language learning - I've begun Italian in the last couple of weeks - still in that tranquil honeymoon phase before the annoying quirks become too apparent :lol: Previously I learned German, though I use the term learn rather loosely, as in contrast to this current project it was a rather laissez faire endeavour. This more structured (though still not quite up to your standards) approach is most unlike the me of old, but objectively has to lead to better results - if through nothing more than the consistency you (and iguanamon) mention.

You've done so much already mate, getting to share it with your children is another really interesting side adventure - I really hope you do continue to check in, I'll certainly be following along!
3 x

User avatar
rdearman
Site Admin
Posts: 7231
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 4:18 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Languages: English (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1836
x 23122
Contact:

Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby rdearman » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:00 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:Throw a chook over your middle shoulder.

Must be an Australian thing. Is that a lizard or something? I'm assuming a chook is poisonous; since everything in Australian is venomous or poisonous or deadly in some other fashion.

EDIT: Also, how many shoulders do you people have down there? We only have 2 in the northern hemisphere left and right ones.
4 x
: 0 / 150 Read 150 books in 2024

My YouTube Channel
The Autodidactic Podcast
My Author's Newsletter

I post on this forum with mobile devices, so excuse short msgs and typos.


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: iguanamon and 2 guests