Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Adrianslont
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Re: PM’s 2 million hours of French in under 24 hours to reach the Fabled Language Learning Dimension!

Postby Adrianslont » Wed May 23, 2018 10:23 am

Yes, Russia or Venezuela sounds like a good idea. Learning Russian or Spanish would be a distraction from French and the economic limitations are quite unlike those in Australia, I’m sure.
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Re: PM’s 2 million hours of French in under 24 hours to reach the Fabled Language Learning Dimension!

Postby Mohave » Wed May 23, 2018 1:24 pm

PM -

Don't stay away too long, but do take care of you and your family. I wish you all the best!
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Re: PM’s 2 million hours of French in under 24 hours to reach the Fabled Language Learning Dimension!

Postby BOLIO » Thu May 24, 2018 9:12 pm

I thought about you (PM) this morning as I was going over my Russian (It is in the early, EARLY stages). I had been spending a solid 20 hours a week with Spanish and now I am spending about 15 - 16 hours with it and about 4 with Russian. She (Spanish) knows I am cheating on her. :o

It has been so long since I really did much of anything like studying or watching TV or even reading in anything other than Spanish. This includes my native language of English. I cannot remember the last time I read a book or watched TV in English. It feels kind of weird trying something new. Now I know it is not like Expung working on 13 languages every day but you can't work on 13 without the second and third. I like your list of languages on your hit list a post or two back. I have been thinking a lot lately about how I want to attack mine (My hit list that is).

In reference to your last post:

Good news from Venezuela? That is good news. We have friends there and they are suffering terribly. One walked across the border into Ecuador with nothing but the clothes she could carry. She was starving. This was a little over two months ago. We will take all the good news we can.

Anyway, I was thinking of you and your language dilemma this morning.

As always, take care of yourself PM.

BOLIO
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Re: PM’s 2 million hours of French in under 24 hours to reach the Fabled Language Learning Dimension!

Postby Cavesa » Thu May 24, 2018 10:25 pm

I think Russia would surprise you a lot. Their healthcare is in ruins. I have a Russian classmate who has come to Prague for her studies, planning to return home after the experience and her boyfriend is definitely not the only reason behind the change of her decision. She has observed what has been happening and comparing the two countries. And Russia has fallen down a lot. A few years ago, lots of things were available only through bribes. Now, not even the bribes will help. She went home for one summer internship half jokingly "to learn how to treat people when you have nothing" and she came back, saying the reality was even worse than she had expected. And that is not the only thing. Sure, Russia doesn't have some of the problems the richer economies have, it has different ones. No country is perfect. When we consider moving abroad, we are basically choosing a system the least likely to annoy us too much.

No offence meant, but I think you tend to idealise a lot of things. Actually, learning Russian may be an excellent way to get to know the country and its reality. To follow media representing both the government and the opposition. Asking people directly what are their lives like. So, I think learning Russian might be a great idea :-) (and there are many awesome books in Russian, that is a huge plus)

Many people go through this with French. They start as uncritical francophiles, and later get disappointed a lot by some stuff (what stuff depends on the person), and then redefine their relationship to the francophone countries and culture. A language learner's cultural shock :-D But it is definitely not limited to French.

About your French: I think you might be underestimating yourself.

I’ve been studying French solidly for almost 5 years. I don’t feel like I can pass a C-level exam yet, but perhaps with focused intent exam prep material only I might very well do so. But do I want to? Do I need to? Should I now? It’s disappointing that I’ve put so much effort in and I still feel gaps on my knowledge (say compared to a native speaker). I would’ve thought that with well over 5000 hours of French I’d be running rings around native speakers joking with the wittiest of French people. Pipe dream? No, just more time is needed, unfortunately. But do I have it?


Whether or not you could pass is a question. There is no surer way to tell than to try. I think signing up, preparing, and fighting the battle might bring you more peace. I think you'll be much more likely to pass than to fail. And in case of failure, you will be much better informed about your weaknesses and "how far" you are.

Of course you have gaps, so do I, and I got that C2. There is no such a thing as perfection. And I think too much focus on becoming native like is sometimes harmful, as it is discouraging instead of motivating. That's what I believe is much more of a problem in your case than the skills themselves. Joking with the wittiest of French people... would you be able to do the same with the wittiest of the English natives? I am really not sure I could follow the wittiest Czech natives, so why should I feel bad about not being equal to the top 0.5% of my foreign languages' natives.

You will never be perfect, you will always keep improving, even though the progress may feel painfully slow at this level. And there is nothing wrong about that, that's just how life works, and it doesn't make your achievements any less valuable or admirable.

Sure, keep learning, keep practicing, keep improving. But don't beat yourself up for not being absolutely perfect. And sign up for the damn exam, so that you know at least something for sure and can get rid of these doubts :-D I think you will surprise yourself.

P.S. I really hope I haven't offended you, that was not my intention. I apologise if I have. I think you have a lot to be proud of, I admire your dedication and your achievements. I just think you may be comparing yourself to an absolutely inhuman scale.
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Re: PM’s 2 million hours of French in under 24 hours to reach the Fabled Language Learning Dimension!

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:24 pm

I didn’t intend to post tonight. Thank you to those who kindly posted or read what I and others had to say. Time away has helped. I dropped French since my last post and admitted burn-out, but it was only dropped from desk study time. Elsewhere it has been very present and very welcome.

I recommenced Dutch, wizzing through previously completed Hugo Dutch in 3 Months up to week 8 (out of 10), and mixing that with the Dutch/English VocabuLearn. I recommenced Spanish as well using Destinos, and very quickly re-acquired partially lost vocabulary. I was planning to introduce Norwegian and German down the track and add some (just a little) French back into the desk study routine as well. No Russian planned, but Arabic entered my thoughts at times. I was convinced of a long-term vision of bite sized study amounts in each language, in which four languages would be learned actively and two would be ‘rested’ each month, changing those two each month. That was my vision, and I was honestly convinced it was time for other languages, I mean it’s been French only for years..but...

Something happened a few days back. I had no intention of going back on my new vision the entire day, but late in the evening, I decided to read a few articles and listened to some youtube clips on reaching C1/C2. I realised that yes I reached some kind of burn-out, since the idea of very solid French study for months up until the exam put me right off. I took a breather for some weeks, but now it’s time to continue on with the objective: French to C2, and I’m okay with it. Dutch, Spanish and others will have to wait (again).

Now on Russia and Venezuela. I will make comment while avoiding politics as best as I can to simply make some vague points. It seems no matter the system/country/jurisdiction there are problems, and every country has them, and I’m certainly under no illusion that these two don’t have (some very serious) issues. These two are certainly no exceptions in that respect and I never thought otherwise. I don’t need to come to that realisation, but I hadn’t previously made that clear, admittedly.

What I appreciate (and was poorly alluding to in my last post), is countries that refuse to bow to outside pressure (often unseen by outsiders) of being told what to do. They are then (as a result of standing their ground) bullied in the media and destabilisation is carefully orchestrated. To the point that, as a hypothetical example, a fully legitimate election process (confirmed by observers from numerous countries) could be said to be illegitimate from outside governments (because who they wanted to win didn’t). The ensuing poverty, instability and harsh conditions do not always come from within the national borders (although the national goverment is blamed in the media as the only culprit), even if apparently so (although I’m not denying such issues can also come from within at times). The result can often be sad for local people on the ground, and rightly so, leaving is often a very good option. I can only hope that nations/populations can one day regain their direction through self determination free of both external and internal corruption. I don’t wish to make any further comments on this.

Back to my French... and thanks Cavesa for your confidence in me, thanks Ani for your interest, thanks BOLIO for thinking of me, thanks smallwhite for the details, thanks Adrianslont for stopping by and sharing your thoughts, thanks Mohave for your kindness :)
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Re: PM’s 2 million hours of French in under 24 hours to reach the Fabled Language Learning Dimension!

Postby Mohave » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:39 pm

PM - It is so great to see you check in!! I'm glad to hear your doing better!
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Re: PM’s 2 million hours of French in under 24 hours to reach the Fabled Language Learning Dimension!

Postby iguanamon » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:03 pm

Welcome back, PM! It's always good to see you here. Don't go overboard with French study. Just be consistent and prioritize what you need to work on. Remember, C levels are not perfection, just very proficient. Bòn chans, zanmi'm !
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Re: PM’s 2 million hours of French in under 24 hours to reach the Fabled Language Learning Dimension!

Postby Cavesa » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:08 pm

But the media propaganda on the outside is nothing to that inside of any particular country.
I sometimes really think people from certain countries miss the historical experience of totally unreliable media. And I am stopping here, because the next few sentences would break the rules :-D

Learn Russian and Spanish. I wholeheartedly recommend it, I got a much broader view at the politics in various countries too, thanks to my foreign languages. I just can't guess whether you'll like what you find. We never know before we actually try.

The foreign languages are an awesome way to more freedom of information, freedom of speech, and freedom of thought. For anyone.
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Re: PM’s 2 million hours of French in under 24 hours to reach the Fabled Language Learning Dimension!

Postby Xmmm » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:54 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:Now on Russia and Venezuela .... What I appreciate (and was poorly alluding to in my last post), is countries that refuse to bow to outside pressure (often unseen by outsiders) of being told what to do.


Use Bhutan for your example instead. It fits your criterion. And since the media never reports on stories from Bhutan, most people don't have an opinion about it.
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Re: PM’s 2 million hours of French in under 24 hours to reach the Fabled Language Learning Dimension!

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:09 am

Some comments on my perceived level. Some appear to feel that my perfectionism (perhaps evident in my approach to accent or obsession with completing multiple courses of a similar level) is perhaps still a lot of the issue with my not getting to C1/C2 (ie hesitating with sitting an exam at this level, when it’s perhaps viewed that I could pass such an exam without too much trouble).

I disagree. From a recent thread started by Carmody:

garyb wrote:I agree that the idea that learning just takes care of itself after a certain level is a dangerous one. My experience is the opposite: once at "advanced B2", progress is slow and I really need to put in significant time and effort to keep moving rather than stay on a plateau. I indeed see the same in the majority of English learners living in the UK: after B2 or so their progress comes to a halt for years or decades, because that level is good enough to do what they need and they're no longer making a conscious effort to improve.


I have not been putting in the effort long enough and consistently enough. I read things about listening (on this forum usually Cavesa’s excellent advice, or sometimes the massive amount of awesome advice I received in a thread well over 12 months old now on being frustrated, time from B2 to C1/C2) and decide that it’s a major weak point of mine, so right, let’s fix it. I get stuck into a new routine (often after sharing it, but of late, I don’t even bother, because i’m a broken record), I last a few days, then miss courses, I go at them for a bit, my daily sleep/work/whatever routine goes out of whack (my own doing usually, often staying up late or some other BS), and then I decide it’s reading that’s needed... or vocabularly, and I go around in circles.

I honestly believe that I’ve not progressed much at all in the last six months. And I honestly believe I would NOT pass a C1 or C2 exam now, even with preparation via previous exams or exam prep books.

Now, why did I burn out? I doubt it was perfectionism, as I really have not stuck to my multiple routines for more than a week at a time I think. Burn out was due to other stupid things as discussed earlier, like not sleeping properly. And my definition of language learning burn out does not fit all the emotional, depressive, complete exhaustion description that I think Ogrim provided. In actual fact, I don’t think I exhausted myself via language study barely at all, I think it was everything else. Late nights, early mornings, looking after kids, working, next to no days off (of either working or looking after kids). I love my kids, I don’t love my work (nor completely hate it either), these things are not the problem. My extremes are.

To add to the mix, I mean c’mon, WTF! I’ve mentioned the number of hours I have done before and I won’t mention it again, but I just keep thinking, how the #### can you get to C2 in language X with that amount of hours? Heck, even double it and I’ll call bullshit. Others can perhaps. I cannot. Period. In fact, with my first L2, I have not reached that level with TEN TIMES the amount of hours. Yes ten times. So WTF? I think I would be completely stupid to ignore the elephant in the room... i.e. I could seriously be kinda stupid. Or at least stupid when it comes to learning languages. Perhaps I’ll be a lot smarter with the ensuing languages (if I ever get there), or I could just be stupid all round, plain and simple. Still, stupid or not, I will keep pursuing what I am trying to obtain. Oh, and on the hours thing, I remember Cavesa saying that reaching C1/C2 requires around 2 super challenges. Ummm... that’s a lot of hours in itself. So the hours are utter bullshit.

Now, series. Still not that comprehensible, really. Probably because I either lack patience, time, or focus or even all three. Books, still not a breeze. Ah-ha, that’s it! Maybe? I spent waaaaaaaaay too long on courses, like everyone was telling me. Oh, btw, I’ve started another job a few days back (one i’ve done casually before, but now on a short term contract). I drive around (as a nurse), visiting patients in their homes... yeah well, and doing pretty straight forward nursing stuff. Good thing is, i’ve got time to listen to French in the car between house calls. Two days ago I did nearly a total of 2.5 hours. Yesterday 1.5 hrs. But, hey, you know me, not listening to advanced stuff, just Glossika (yet another course). Mind you it’s great for speech production (shadowing, whatever you want to call it), but it’s no advanced podcast. I’m telling you now, I am not a C1 nor a C2, and the next dickhead that says you can reach German C2 with 600 to 750 hours study, or French C2 in 600 hours... well I won’t do anything really, but probably verbally abuse them (because it makes me feel so good, and is so healthy) cowardly behind thousands of kilometres of internet signal and my stupid iPhone that’s recording everything I say and do.

I think even with a massively steep learning curve, I myself could not reach those levels in those (FSI) times. And perhaps a big part of the picture is that I just never ever read that much in my own language. Rant over.
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