Europan e reformat ortografie

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
User avatar
Serpent
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3657
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:54 am
Location: Moskova
Languages: heritage
Russian (native); Belarusian, Polish

fluent or close: Finnish (certified C1), English; Portuguese, Spanish, German, Italian
learning: Croatian+, Ukrainian; Romanian, Galician; Danish, Swedish; Estonian
exploring: Latin, Karelian, Catalan, Dutch, Czech, Latvian
x 5179
Contact:

Re: Europan e reformat ortografie

Postby Serpent » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:44 am

I mostly agree but I don't see how this can make people less smart. :roll: Any language activity stimulates the brain, even solving a crossword in L1.

and zé do rock told me that Europan does have some Slavic roots.
0 x
LyricsTraining now has Finnish and Polish :)
Corrections welcome

User avatar
reineke
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3570
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:34 pm
Languages: Fox (C4)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6979
x 6554

Re: Europan e reformat ortografie

Postby reineke » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:15 pm

Gonnae no dae that!
0 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4960
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17566

Re: Europan e reformat ortografie

Postby Cavesa » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:47 pm

Serpent wrote:I mostly agree but I don't see how this can make people less smart. :roll: Any language activity stimulates the brain, even solving a crossword in L1.

and zé do rock told me that Europan does have some Slavic roots.


Not in the way of an individual becoming less smart due to learning this conlang, of course not. But the constant pressure on making stuff easy above all is lowering the intellectual standards the society inspires people to.

One of the things that I dislike about such a conlang: it doesn't open a new culture, it narrows the communication down to just direct personal contact, spoken or written. With no "background studying" of the culture, such as reading the news, watching movies, following blogs etc., the spectrum of things to talk about narrows down. And the communication is poorer, when people know nothing of each other's background. This is one of the things I dislike about the attitude "a language is for direct communication, speaking, everything else is not too important". Everything else makes the communication richer and more valuable.

It's like the difference between the schools, who just drill the students to do well in standartised exams, and those that are really trying to give them high quality education.

ENGLISH HOUSE STILE

cavesa, wat would yu say if the ceski guvverment decided to introduce bak the ceski spelling of the 15th century? evrybody would say, they'r crazy! but thats wat happens in inglish and francian, in the last centuries... would yu prefer if ceski had no reforms and was stil ritten as in the 15th century?

It happened and it is no tragedy. In the 19th century, during the reanimation (or perhaps exhumation) of the Czech language. The new standard grammar was based on a few hundred years old bible. There are many problems of Czech, but this is not really one of them.


italiano pupils need one yeer to spel quite perfectly, inglishe pupils rather 3 yeers (and probbably they'l nevver spel realy perfectly). so wile italiano (and menny uther europano) pupils can studdy realy important things like math, biology, etc - wich cant be simplified - the inglishe pupils hav to lern and mannage artificial difficulties, that wouldnt be thare if we didnt want it.

lets say yu need 10 000 information bits to lern a language mor or less propperly. in inglishe yu hav to lern 20 000, becaus yu hav tu lern a spoken language AND a ritten language. if thare was a reform, yu could lern 2 languages with the same effort - wouldnt that be good if yu new one language mor than yu no?


You are absolutely right the English spelling is horrible to learn. But that is not wrong. A culture that throws away the continuity with their history makes a huge step back, in my opinion. There are reasons, why each language has evolved the way it has evolved. I don't think there is anything wise or clever about disrespecting all this at all costs.

I don't think your argument about putting more time into other subjects makes sense. The Chinese or Japanese kids spend years learning to read well enough to understand a novel or even a newspaper. Last time I checked, they definitely didn't suck at maths or any other subject in the international comparing exams. Also, even maths or any other subject can be simplified. If you are a utilitarian and decide to teach kids only what they'll need for the leaving exam (this is actually happing in my country, it is a real example).

i dont think this is a "dumming down", the eternal argument of anti-reformers. if it was a dumming down, it would meen that the speekers of languages like espanian, italiano, ceski, ne-jugoslavski, suomian, etc ar all stupid - do yu realy beleev it?

This is not an argument at all. Each of the languages has its own difficulties. There are people, who consider English to be very easy, as there are no declinations are almost no conjugations.


and then yu can speek much better inglish if thare is a mor logical spelling. it is very likely that yu pronounce words the rong way - if eeven university professors who ar nativ speekers do it, wy shouldnt yu, as a non nativ speeker? i myself thaut all the time that the word 'video' was pronounced /vi:diou/ (as quite a few romanic words hav an I pronounced as /i:/). so i speld it veedeo in anuther forum, a nativ speeker askd me wy i hav that funny spelling, and so i found out that i was pronouncing it the rong way all my life. or the film title "the revenant" - i wasnt sure how to pronounce that word, /rEv@n@nt/ or /ri'vEn@nt/. if i saw it ritten 'the revvenan' or 'the revvenant' i would no it imeediatly.

Or you can write with tons of mistakes like this. I'm not sure it's that much better. You know nothing about my level of English. Yes, I have an accent, which isn't an obstacle for natives to understand me. And the amount of my mistakes is definitely not higher than the amount of differences between the various English dialects. Sure, there might be space for gradual changes, it can really be impractical. But the solution is not butchering several languages.

The non natives shouldn't be an argument for any language reforms. If the natives start reading something differently and it spread, it is probably worth changing officially. But the non natives, most of which are not that advanced, should not taken into account. Is really the goal to make the language more understandable to people not bothering to learn it properly, at the cost of robbing it of many qualities?


europan - languages that hav up to 11 million speekers get wate 10, languages from 11 to 50 millions hav wate 20, from 50 to 100 millions wate 30, mor than 100 millions wate 40, and inglish has wate 80. thus russki has the same wate as deutshe, francian, espanian and portugalian, ukrainski the same wate as italian. so the 3 mane famlies hav quite the same wate. but in the end slavski is weeker, and thare ar 3 reesons for that: 1) the 2 strongest slavski languages, russki and ukrainski, hav a kirilski alfabet, and europano counts not only the similarities in spoken language but also in ritten language. so thees languages just hav thare maximum wate wen the letters ar the same or simmilar as in the roman alfabet. 2) romanic languages ar a group of 5 languages (most of them quite "hevvy"), germanic languages hav 7, and slavski languages hav 10, and the mor "divided" the languages ar, the smaller the chance that they hav a common word. 3) one europano principle is to avoid consonant combinations that most europano languages dont hav, and this meens for instance that we cant hav a word like 'mléko' for milk, since most europano languages dont hav words beginning with ML. and slavski languages hav quite a few of such words - a sentence like strC prst skrz krk wouldnt work for europan... stil, ceski 'mléko' helps inglishe 'milk' to be the elected word (agenst romanic lait, latte, etc).

I don't need any lecture on why are the slavic language in general less popular or less prestigious. But your language brings nothing new in this aspect, nothing noteworthy, nothing more connecting and therefore european. There is already a successful romance-germanic conlang with a few slavic based words, it is called Esperanto.

I think you shouldn't give lectures on shared vocabulary and features in the slavic languages without actually knowing even one. Had you studies the topic a bit, you would know well that the languages within each of the three branches are highly mutually intelligible. And the level of intelligibility is quite high even among languages from different branches. BCMS are sometimes considered one language with differences you could easily call dialects. Czech and Slovak are so close we can talk and understand each other almost perfectly, without either of the natives switching to the other's language.


but thare ar slavski words in europan. first the menny indoeuropano words that ar ALSO slavski ('mai' for 'my' is inglish, but neerer to russki 'moi' or ceski 'muj' than to portugaliano 'meu'), 'da' for 'giv', etc. and thare ar also exclusivly slavski words, like 'bes' for 'without', 'tolco' for 'just, only' (in the sense of meerly), 'glava' for 'hed', 'ocno' for 'windo', 'golup' for 'pigeon', etc, and 'grupa' may be latin, but the final A is slavski. and the word for 'to buy' is 'coupe', from ceski 'koupit' - of corse not becaus ceski is so "hevvy", but it has the suport of nederlandishe 'koop' /koup/, from skandinavishe 'köpe', and eeven a bit from romanic 'COmPrar'.

the numbers: un-do/z-tri/z-fo/r-pet/a-seis-sede/m-oito-naine-ti. 'un' and 'do/z' ar latin, tri/z is quite international, fo/r is inglishe, pet/a is slavski and grekiano, seis is iberiano, sede/m is slavski, oit is portugaliano, nain is inglishe, ti is skandinavish. and 100 is 'sto'.

by the way, i'm brazilian, but my ancestors wer lietuvis, deutshis from lodz, and russkis, so they all came from est europa...

All this doesn't make "European" look easier than the normal languages.

Well, perhaps you should then understand better one important fact about Europe and the value of the linguistic diversity. The plurality of the sources of information, of the attitudes, of the points of view. The linguistic barriers have a plus side too, we don't get just one opinion in all the media on the whole continent. That is something we should cherish, not destroy.
3 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4960
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17566

Re: Europan e reformat ortografie

Postby Cavesa » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:37 am

Zé do Rock wrote:
Cavesa wrote:Not in the way of an individual becoming less smart due to learning this conlang, of course not. But the constant pressure on making stuff easy above all is lowering the intellectual standards the society inspires people to.

ENGLISH HOUSE STILE

I dont want to loer intelectual standards. But a spelling like inglishe spelling reminds me of the Game of Glass Perls in a novel of Hermann Hesse, ware all the scollars ar bisy with a game that dusnt solv enny problems, it's just a complicated game, for the sake of intelectual activity. Thare ar millions of things to lern about the world, we dont need a game that is just thare to challenge our branes, especialy if it is one that dusnt make us THINK mor, we just hav to fil our memrys. But our memry has a limmited capacity, wich meens that we hav to thro out a lot of useful stuf.

U say inglishe spelling is horrible to lern, and u say that ceski dusnt hav that problem. As if it been like this since the stone age. But eesy spellings arnt just tradition, it's not only history, eesy spellings ar not a problem in sum languages becaus sum cuntrys hav adapted thare spelling to the new situation, as they dont offer hay at rest areas along the rodes nowadays - they offer gassoline. Is this a loss of culture? Wel, u can say that, but our cars wouldnt go far with hay.

And you are basing the "limited capacity of the memory" theory on what exactly? As far as I know, all the research suggest we are not using our memory to the full potential by far. Of course it feels subjectively sometimes that learning just one more chapter for an exam is gonna push out some older and important stuff, but I don't really consider this possible.

Czech has a much more regular spelling, true. But that doesn't mean it is necessarily better or easy, the difficulties are just different. There are tricky bits that native learn for some time as kids and foreigners are learning them too. The differences between i/y, mě/mně/, s/z, je/ě. There were attempts to get rid of this by people with a similar attitude to yours. And all failed. For example a newspaper showed an extremely known poem, written with the new spelling, as it was being discussed by the government at that point. Everybody hated it, it felt so wrong and at times made comprehension harder.

Of course it is possible things will slowly evolve in this direction. But the attempts to drastically change everything as fast as possible are different from that.




Cavesa wrote:One of the things that I dislike about such a conlang: it doesn't open a new culture, it narrows the communication down to just direct personal contact, spoken or written.

ENGLISH HOUSE STILE

quite a few peeple mite want to lern inglishe becaus they want to lern the anglo-saxon culture, but uthers just want to lern it to be able to comunicate with uther peeple around the world. and eeven if esperanto mite hav devellopd so much that it has sumthing of a natural language, peeple who lern it do it to be able to comunicate with uther peeple - and not to lern the "esperanto culture" - and to signalize that they'd like a neutral lingua franca, ware nobody has the initial advantage of havving it as thare nativ tung.

sumtimes it sounds as if u'r criticizing europano for not havving a rich litrature as esperanto. of corse, esperanto is mor than a century old, europan is being born at the moment. it is as if they opend a new museum in praha and u sed, "but hey, this is not the louvre!"

the advantage of europan is that u can comunicate with 10 peeple of difrent linguistic bakground much mor eesily than with esperanto, if nobody speeks europan or esperanto. and that u can lern wat the most international word for a certain concept is.

Of course most people want to learn English just because it is obligatory at school or because it will lead them to a higher salary. But you may notice that the people learning it to good level are usually those who consume a lot of content in it. Those "pragmatic" ones just "wanting to communicate" usually get stuck at the intermediate level. And all their mistakes, poorer vocab, and lack of the cultural knowledge actually limit the communication. If you mean just doing a few job related tasks in English by "communicating with people around the world",it is ok. But anyone craving more meaningful and diverse dialogue with others needs the advanced skills, which are only obtainable with help of all the stuff this conlang is missing.

I am not criticising Europano for not having the same tradition Esperanto has been building. I simply cannot see any reason to introduce a second Esperanto. Europano has no advantages over it. I am a native speaker of a Slavic language and I find Europano much harder than Esperanto. And it would be the same, even if my experience with foreign languages was much smaller, becuase Esperanto was really designed in a clever way.

To follow your analogy: Europano is not like opening a new museum in Prague, which unfortunately cannot compare to Louvre-Esperanto but still can offer some value. Europano is more like a demolition of the Louvre so that it can be replaced by a new building with a museum from Prague moving there. Or not even a museum from Prague, rather a local museum from a tiny town like Jilemnice.


Cavesa wrote:You are absolutely right the English spelling is horrible to learn. But that is not wrong. A culture that throws away the continuity with their history makes a huge step back, in my opinion. There are reasons, why each language has evolved the way it has evolved. I don't think there is anything wise or clever about disrespecting all this at all costs.

ENGLISH HOUSE STILE

in the past, italiano was latin. the spoken language changed, and sum peepla adapted the ritten language to the spoken language, so that italiano was no longer ritten as latin. i dont considder this a disrespect, utherwize all the languages u speek ar the result of a long history of disrespect. it happend neerly evryware, except maybe in island (thats the cuntry - the peece of land surrounded by water is 'iland' in house stile). sum scollar changed the franciano word 'dette' to 'debt' (eeven if thare was no B in it), sum scollar changed the germanic word 'iland' to 'island', to make it look mor like latin (the inglis didnt want to be seen as the barbarian germanic tribes...). uthers changed inglishe 'musick' to 'music', and webster, the dictionary maker, changed a lot of words, and quite a few became wat we now no as 'americanisms', as did roosevelt, and menny words wer changed becaus sumbody just misspeld it out of ignorance, and uthers folloed him becaus they thaut that must be the rite spelling and started using it.

What is so hard to understand about the difference between a slow evolution guided by complex tendencies of the natives and external influences, and a fast revolution based just on a wild idealistic theory of how the language should work?

Again, I don't need this lecture on the language evolution, I am trying to explain to you the same thing. All these small and gradual changes with academia filtering them and gradually introducing them to the standards, that is the correct way for a language to evolve.

Something like Europan could be the language of the future, if the natural evolution and harmonisation within Europe progresses in that direction, true. But not earlier than in a few hundred years. Not artificially.

Cavesa wrote:I don't think your argument about putting more time into other subjects makes sense. The Chinese or Japanese kids spend years learning to read well enough to understand a novel or even a newspaper. Last time I checked, they definitely didn't suck at maths or any other subject in the international comparing exams. Also, even maths or any other subject can be simplified.

ENGLISH HOUSE STILE

u cant simplify math. math is as it is, as biology is as it is. wat u can do is simplifying the teeching of math. u can say, ok, pupils, u just hav to lern the square root of 8. but u cant say that the square root of 379.485.935 is 4.

u cant compare so difrent nations as that, chinis and japanis ar very dilligent now. swahili speekers hav a simple spelling, inglishe has a complicated spelling, and despite of that usa is richer than tanzania. but the fact is that the memry has a limmited capacity.

You can simplify the way math or biology is being taught. It is happening in various countries. Read a bit about education, about the impact of schools focusing just on some standartised tests. It is not just about telling the students what to remember. It is the difference between leading them to thinking logically and creatively while applying the knowledge on new problems, and drilling them to just learnt one way to solve a certain type of test questions. It is a similar difference to that between learning two or three foreign languages with getting to know their cultures better, and just learning a conlang that doesn't aspire to anything great and doesn't reflect the culture or history of anyone at all.

Again, what is your "fact" based on? I am not a scientist, but I have passed a few subjects like neuroscience, neurology, physiology. I have studied a bit about the neuroscience, I am intersted in this subject. And such an idea is nowhere in the lectures, textbooks, or science articles. Everything suggests quite the opposite.

What does economy or diligence have to do with this? The Japanese and Chinese are diligent (the kids don't get a choice) and are therefore an example of the opposite of your theory. They are so good in many areas thanks to that dilligence. And they have definitely not reached the ceiling of how much is a brain capable to learn. This is a much more complex issue than ortography not leaving space for other subjects. Or do the Swahili kids end so much higher on the international scale than the poor anglophone ones spendint so much time with their spelling? Definitely not!


Cavesa wrote:Or you can write with tons of mistakes like this. I'm not sure it's that much better. You know nothing about my level of English.


EUROPAN

no, i sa no. mas is probabli no super beta ki la nivel af un universitee profesi ki hav inglish as mama lingua. e meme lis fa falsitees.

ENGLISH HOUSE STILE

no, i dont. but it is probbably not much better than the levvel of a university professor who has inglish as nativ language. and eeven they make mistakes.

Of course everyone makes mistakes, so what? It doesn't prevent the university professor from being successful. Europan wouldn't change that. The professor wouldn't make fewer mistakes. I wouldn't make fewer mistakes. The only result would be lower level of the overall communication, as the mistakes and lack of nuance would make us less able to talk or read about complex issues. The best course of action is learning the language of the people I want to learn from.

Sure my level is not likely to be better than that of a well educated native. But I don't think I'd be making fewer mistakes in Europan than in English or any other language. Europan would not lead to less imperfect skills, it would just lead to everyone making lots of mistakes due to noone being native. And that is a problem, we can already see in the international context, with bad English becoming the standard, as most people use it with other non natives only and rarely with natives.


Cavesa wrote:The non natives shouldn't be an argument for any language reforms. If the natives start reading something differently and it spread, it is probably worth changing officially. But the non natives, most of which are not that advanced, should not taken into account. Is really the goal to make the language more understandable to people not bothering to learn it properly, at the cost of robbing it of many qualities?


ENGLISH HOUSE STILE

of corse i dont considder the pronunciation of non nativs for a reform, nobody dus that. but if the language is made eesier for them, it cant be bad, since inglish is mor than the language of a cuntry, it is the lingua franca of the world.

and wat ar the qualitys u'r talking about, that would be robd?

Again, you are talking about this as if it was a theory. But it is already the reality. The international language is not normal English, it is bad English. People often understand better someone making mistakes from the other side of the world than a native. Something like a Europan dialect is already happening and you might be happy about it, people understand each other with tons of mistakes and the mistakes spread internationally.

But it is a problem. I have seen it many times. This "dialect" harms communication as people are incapable to express themselves properly, with enough nuance, precision, wit. It is happening and it is a problem. It is the dumbing down process I am talking about.

It is not equality in the sense of improving everyone's chances at international success of any kind. It is the equality that doesn't help the weaker ones (many people would mess up Europan the same way they are messing English) but damages the stronger ones, the people who actually care and try to learn languages to high enough level to communicate about complex issues with enough precision. Languages without a cultural base to draw from and media and books and movies and everything are impossible to learn to such a high level.


Cavesa wrote:I don't need any lecture on why are the slavic language in general less popular or less prestigious.

ENGLISH HOUSE STILE

ware did i do that? i explaned to u wy thare ar fewer slavski words in europano than romanic and germanic ones.

You completely missed the point. I was not asking you, why there were fewer slavic words. I was just describing the fact that Europan doesn't include much more of those than Esperanto. Therefore there is nothing more european and egalitarian about Europan than about Esperanto. And the name doesn't fit.


Cavesa wrote: I think you shouldn't give lectures on shared vocabulary and features in the slavic languages without actually knowing even one.

ENGLISH HOUSE STILE

so u think that to make a realy europano language, i should no them all? zamenhof new all the languages he took words from?

No, I think you are just really mistaken to use condescending tone giving a lecture appropriate for third graders on a forum, where vast majority of members knows these numbers and the situation of the languages to much more detail than that and without the mistakes. And there are such learners among us, who actually know a few langauges from each of the big groups plus a few extra.

I am not saying you should know them all. I just think you should be a bit more humble instead of lecturing about things you know nothing about.


Cavesa wrote:Had you studies the topic a bit, you would know well that the languages within each of the three branches are highly mutually intelligible.


ENGLISH HOUSE STILE

wat makes u think that? i studdied one yeer of russki in brazil, i was 3 times in russia, 1 time in ukraina, 1 time in bielarus, 3 times in polska, 1 time in slovakia, 5 times in ceskia, 5 times in slovenia, 5 times in krovatska, 5 times in serbia, 2 times in bosnia, 2 times in montenegro, 1 time in makedonia, 2 times in bulgaria. and u think that i didnt notice that thare is a certan similarity? and do u no that thare ar dictionarys?

but maybe u no enuf of math to no that it is eesier that 5 languages hav a common word than that 10 languages hav a common word.

Your profile makes me think that. You haven't listed any slavic language.
The way you worded it (if I understood you correctly through all those mistakes), it really didin't look as if you had noticed and understood the similarities well. Perhaps if you were writing correctly, I would have understood you better.

And perhaps you should watch your tone. The condescending tone (especially used with weak arguments) and straw men are not the standard around here.


Cavesa wrote:All this doesn't make "European" look easier than the normal languages.


bom, ja que você acha português mais fácil que europan, eu só escrevo em português quando eu escrever pra você, né. ou peut etre swahili?

I understand normal written Portuguese much better than this mix and I have never spent even a minute learning the language. The same is true about Catalan. And to lesser extent to the scandinavian languages (lesser extent, because my German is weaker than my romance languages). Europan doesn't offer me anything in this sense.


Cavesa wrote:Well, perhaps you should then understand better one important fact about Europe and the value of the linguistic diversity. The plurality of the sources of information, of the attitudes, of the points of view. The linguistic barriers have a plus side too, we don't get just one opinion in all the media on the whole continent. That is something we should cherish, not destroy.


ENGLISH HOUSE STILE

i liv in deutshland for mor than 20 yeers, i livd also for a wile in franse, in norge, and i was (mostly hichhiking) in all europano cuntrys except moldova, but i didnt notice enny diversity - strange... i wun prizes for my books, ritten in reformd spellings, 100 million peeple saw me on TV, and all that becaus i want to destroy the europano culture! not bad for sum-one who isnt better than an islamist, ay?

but wasnt zamenhof an europi? and the TESS, the english spelling society, that has been trying to reform inglishe spelling for mor than 100 yeers - they say the society was founded by lords and professors, but probbably they'r disguised terrorists from saudi arabia!


And have you tried reading the newspapers? Comparing how are various countries presenting the same issues? What issues does each culture connect each new event to? Have you been to a bookstore in each of those countries, to see what is popular where?

EDIT: there was one more post between this and the previous one. Here was an aswer to an extremely inapropriate part taking an absolutely weird turn.

continuing the original post, as the point is still worth raising in my opinion:
Btw, as you were so eager to bring this in: wouldn't it make sense for Europan to be based on non-european languages too? If you want it to be so much easier for a large amount of people in europe, you can't leave the millions of natives of Arabic, Turkish, various african languages, Vietnamese, or Chinese. Esperanto didn't count with them, because it was made in a different era. So, why make another Esperanto, we've already got one. If you are after a language that would be a common platform, Europan makes no difference from the normal european languages to all those natives. Really, I think this is yet another argument for learning multiple languages and watching the evolution, instead of making an artificial one, that doesn't solve the issues it is being made for.
Last edited by Cavesa on Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1 x

Bluepaint
Brown Belt
Posts: 1272
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:41 pm
x 1031

Re: Europan e reformat ortografie

Postby Bluepaint » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:14 pm

Cavesa, could you please edit the quote with the racist reference? Either *** the relevant words or delete that portion of text.

Ze do rock, we do not tolerate racist remarks. This is your one and only warning on the matter.

Edit: I've deleted the post in question.
0 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4960
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17566

Re: Europan e reformat ortografie

Postby Cavesa » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:45 pm

The post in question was deleted, it was between my last two posts. I don't know whether you, moderators, deleted it, or it was the author. The post was really going to a wrong direction at the end.
0 x

Bluepaint
Brown Belt
Posts: 1272
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:41 pm
x 1031

Re: Europan e reformat ortografie

Postby Bluepaint » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:33 pm

Zé do Rock wrote:
Bluepaint wrote:Cavesa, could you please edit the quote with the racist reference? Either *** the relevant words or delete that portion of text.

Ze do rock, we do not tolerate racist remarks. This is your one and only warning on the matter.

Edit: I've deleted the post in question.


wat is this??? saying sumthing bad about terrorists is racism???? in this case i guess we should shut down the new york times and menny papers!

ware am i heer?


Singling out one country as having terrorists is the issue.

Discussing terrorism itself - if that had actually been what you were doing, which you weren't - would also be difficult to do without entering political discussion which is also prohibited.

I suggest you familiarise yourself with the forum rules, they are readily available.
1 x

User avatar
rdearman
Site Admin
Posts: 7231
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 4:18 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Languages: English (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1836
x 23128
Contact:

Re: Europan e reformat ortografie

Postby rdearman » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:10 pm

Forget the word "Racist" and think of the word "Defamation". You are in violation of the rules against libel and defamation and of politics.
Religion and politics: Some families have a rule that says, "No political or religious arguments during holiday dinner." This forum has a similar rule year-round, for much the same reasons. We have people here from all over the world, with incredibly diverse political and religious views, and we all get along much better if we avoid these subjects.

If the politics or religion is genuinely related to language learning, then you have a small amount of leeway—as long as people remain respectful and refrain from fighting. But if a moderator asks you to stop, please stop. You can fight about politics and religion on almost any other site on the Internet. This site is for language learning.


Libel and Defamation: Under UK defamation law (Defamation Act 2013), website operators can be pursued by those who claim they have been defamed as a result of comments on their site even if those operators are not the author of those comments. We hate receiving letters from Her Majesty's Government. This means we have a very strict set of rules against the use of libelous or defamatory remarks on this website and posts which are considered to be defamatory will be subject to immediate deletion and the poster will be sanctioned.


defamation
ˌdɛfəˈmeɪʃ(ə)n/
noun
noun: defamation; plural noun: defamations

the action of damaging the good reputation of someone; slander or libel.
"she sued him for defamation"
synonyms: libel, slander, character assassination, defamation of character, calumny, vilification, traducement, obloquy, scandal, scandalmongering, malicious gossip, tittle-tattle, backbiting, aspersions, muckraking, abuse, malediction; More
disparagement, denigration, detraction, derogation, opprobrium, censure, criticism;
smear, slur, lie, false report, smear campaign, rumour, insult;
informalmud-slinging, slagging-off, knocking, bitching;
informalbad-mouthing;
archaiccontumely
"he sued the newspaper for defamation"
antonyms: commendation


Zé do Rock wrote:1) "el islandis (icelanders) grabize la sharkis e manja la rotee stof dopo 3 mes - lis gaga!" - dat is a rasista comentu tu el islandis?
2) "looke la braziliano governu, brazilis mus bi stupid si lis electou li!" - i can sei dat, meme si lu is direccionee tu la pople tu wat i bilong?
3) somwen i sei dat austris is germanizee slavis, e ceskis is slavizee germanis. dat is ofensale tu ceskis, if oni considera ki 'deutsh' e 'germanishe' hav a fortli negativo conotacion?
4) in berlin la politicali corecto forses faz a laude campane contra la "mohrenstrasze", coze lu rasist, lu signifi 'mauris strat'. so i permitee tu cont abaut mai linguist amigo *moritz*, hus nome veni du same coren? is OK con asterisk? i can cont abaut mai voyagu tu mauritius pre 2 ano, or i shalau elect a nerasista nom?
5) i permitee tu uza la deutsh o portugaliano vord 'negativ', meme si lu contene la vord 'nega', ki signifi negri/negra, e la vord 'negativ' hav a fortli negativo conotacion? si no, wat yu sugest as vord pro la contrario de 'pozitiv'?


  1. Yes, this is defamation of the good character of people from Iceland. By calling their traditions crazy.
  2. Yes, you are defaming the entire population of the country of Brazil. If you want to call yourself stupid that is fine, since it is your character which your defaming and you can do this legally.
  3. I can't really make out what you're saying here since it isn't English. But I don't believe this statement is defaming or racist, however if it gives offence to other forum members then you'll be warned.
  4. You can discuss the word. However discussion of a political movement or the internal politics of a country is against the rules.
  5. Use of a word isn't as you've defined it isn't against the rules. Use of a racist remark against an individual or group of people however is against the rules.

Finally the rules and the interpretation of them is down to the administrators and the moderators of the forum. We don't have a huge long list of rules specific to every possible use of every word, we have general rules and guidelines established to keep good order and a good working relationship between all members.

This is my website. I am the one held legally responsible for the posts which are published here. I do not have to give the right of publication to anyone, and I can withdraw the right to post on this site at any time. You've been asked to stop making certain types of statements. You've responded in a manner which attacks a moderators decision. This section of the rules are quoted below.

Moderating decisions: ... If you have a problem with a moderator's decision, your best bet is to PM the moderators directly and explain why you think the decision was wrong. Please do not open new threads to protest a decision or attack any of the moderators; doing so will quickly bring you to the section below.
... Please pay attention to any moderator warnings! If you disregard a warning, your account may be temporarily suspended or permanently banned. Bans will normally apply to any related sites as well.


Please lets all get back to learning languages and avoid any future issues.
2 x
: 0 / 150 Read 150 books in 2024

My YouTube Channel
The Autodidactic Podcast
My Author's Newsletter

I post on this forum with mobile devices, so excuse short msgs and typos.

User avatar
rdearman
Site Admin
Posts: 7231
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 4:18 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Languages: English (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1836
x 23128
Contact:

Re: Europan e reformat ortografie

Postby rdearman » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:15 pm

FOLLOW UP:
Please note this member was subsequently banned and all of their posts were deleted. They were banned for the reasons outlined in my post above as well as other violations of the rules.
0 x
: 0 / 150 Read 150 books in 2024

My YouTube Channel
The Autodidactic Podcast
My Author's Newsletter

I post on this forum with mobile devices, so excuse short msgs and typos.

User avatar
Tristano
Blue Belt
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:11 am
Location: The Netherlands
Languages: Native: Italian
Speaks: English, Dutch, French, Spanish
Understands but not yet speaks: Romanian
Studies: German
Can't wait to put his hands on: Scandinavian languages, Slavic languages, Turkish, Arabic and other stuff
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5141
x 1015

Re: Europan e reformat ortografie

Postby Tristano » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:39 pm

meh.
sometimes people minds are impenetrable... :geek:
1 x


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Sizen and 2 guests