Morgana's Swedish log

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Morgana
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby Morgana » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:21 am

Neurotip wrote:Ha, this is one I never had a problem with either, but I know why: last Christmas I was charmed by Björk singing fólk vissi ekki hvaðan hann kom // eða hvert hann fór and it stuck. (I must systematise this way of learning sometime...) Unfortunately now I stare at hvort and wonder which direction that one means :)

Shhhhhh now you made me think - "wait, what direction is 'hvort'?!?"

Somehow all the -ðan words make complete sense to me that they should be "from ____" (þaðan, héðan, hvaðan). I don't know why and I'm not going to prod lest I dishevel the sense it makes.
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Re: Morgana's Swedish & Icelandic log

Postby Morgana » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:57 am

My adaptation of StringerBell's and Elenia's sentence-mining methods involves Anki. There were some details about their methods that I couldn't quite work out how to do for myself, and in general I just don't like having to purposely review lists. With Anki it will remind me. Leeches are set to 4 because the point is not eternal memorization. (I might even set it to 3.) I'm wanting to find that nice happy medium where I'm remembering less-frequent words and phrases, but not torturing myself over them. This is my compromise between letting the repeated forgetting happen and being indifferent about it, and putting every single thing into Anki. I still think flashcards are a bit... hm, I'm not sure what the term is. There's something empty about how they help you learn.

I likely just have low expectations, but where I am with Swedish is quite comfortable compared to the beginner struggle, and I'm very happy (comparatively speaking). I'm obviously not settling for being low intermediate, but it's a much nicer place than anywhere in the beginner levels. My point: I'd be deliriously happy to get Icelandic and Finnish to the same place. It's so much nicer to be able to work with native materials that interest me, and get to a point where my comprehension is such that the material can be enjoyed with minimal aids. And that does not require perfect comprehension. Far from it.

Swedish: I compromised and will only watch each episode of Bonusfamiljen once per day (instead of twice). I'm watching with Swedish closed captioning. Sometimes I manage not to read it! Changing text on a screen, it's like trying to get a cat not to chase a laser pointer's light on a wall. I am also listening to the Odinsbarn audiobook. Seven chapters done since yesterday.

Icelandic: Unit 5 of CI is finally done. It's always a relief to finish a unit, because they seem to take me forever to work through. Still watching Case, about 20 minutes/day, I'm somewhere in episode 5. Lately I can hear words, and even the occasional full sentence!

Finnish: I'm about to wrap up chapter 2 of TY Complete Finnish. A few things are starting to click.

French ran its course. I suspected it would.
Last edited by Morgana on Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Morgana
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Re: Morgana's Swedish & Icelandic log

Postby Morgana » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:13 pm

Swedish: The activities I have chosen to do for the current few weeks are almost too easy. Easy as in they require little effort from me. It's just watching tv and listening to an audiobook, and I've previously watched/listened to both. Bonusfamiljen (tv) is fine, I'm not catching everything without subtitles but I am able to better appreciate the acting, which is making the experience more enjoyable overall. I suspect that listening improves no matter what, ie. that I could watch exactly zero amount of television/movies with any kind of subtitles, or in other words only watch tv without subtitles, and yet still, over time, my listening would improve. I find subtitles to be too distracting on the whole anyway, I'm sure there is some benefit to them but I also think they harm as much as they help (reduced capacity for listening because one is trying to also focus on reading, brain doesn't multitask etc.).

Odinsbarn (audiobook) is so comfortable and relaxing to listen to, my only problem is that my attention wanders or I fall asleep :lol:

Icelandic: Alright, that's it, I've had it with pages of vocabulary without context. Course makers: don't do this! I said it a while back too that I was going to start skipping exercises, but I didn't because "surely they wouldn't be there if they weren't necessary" well I'm tired of those. I'm going to be working on Colloquial Icelandic for probably another year at the pace I'm going. No thanks. It takes quite the will of steel to hang in that long. Oh! Hahaha I wanted more verb tenses, right? So I could just start getting into reading? I flipped through CI and the next verb tense (I think) is imperative, in another couple of units :lol: After that, I think there are participles a few units later... Past tense is in unit 14! :lol: :lol: :lol: There are only 16 units. Rats. Past tense is key for reading novels haha. I'll think about doing things out of order.

Case (tv) is rather depressing. I mean, duh, these cop/murder shows are. In terms of listening comprehension, some days feel like I'm making progress, other days every line of dialogue is incomprehensible mumbling. I'm not entirely convinced they are saying words, but mmhhnkrrrþþhhhbngrrbmhhhlþmrhhhmrrrrððþmrrr. I think Neurotip and Soffía were joking about Icelandic being an elaborate hoax several months back. Well... :lol:

Finnish: Bleh, Teach Yourself is not my thing. I was using Anki (I confess! I confess!) but it was like 20-30 minutes of Anki plus 10-15 minutes pulling teeth with Teach Yourself plus 0 minutes of fun. Going SRS-less for a language like Finnish feels like going skydiving without a parachute. Anyway I could quit this language just because of the resource. Fortunately I scheduled to resource-hop after unit 3 and I have maybe one more day's work with unit 3 so I'll hold out that long and then switch it up! I'm also going to squeeze in 10-15 minutes of tv because maybe getting to hear real speech would keep me motivated as well.

I understand some people use Assimil even if they don't understand French/German? Use it as some kind of graded reader or something (with audio)? Assuming I keep going with Finnish, and assuming I finish one of these beginner resources I have, I wonder if I'd be better off just diving straight into native materials or if getting the Assimil le finnois (or whatever) and using it for more graded listening/reading practice would be a good middle step or waste of time.

I'm actually wondering if I'm moving too quickly through the TY book! I started about 3 weeks ago I think, and I'm nearly done the third unit, and according to my spreadsheet I've put in between 10-11 hours. Compared to Colloquial Icelandic, the first few units of TY Finnish are relatively light. I probably shouldn't assume I'll keep up the current pace. But if I did, I'd be done the whole book in, what, another 60 hours? :shock:

I've been doing other dabbling and falling prey to wanderlust (where do I have the time?!) and it's only serving to convince me that I make bad decisions :lol: Two languages is a challenge, three languages is bordering on insanity, four languages is... well I've started living in an alternate reality where the laws of physics don't apply. My head gets done in with all the reading but somehow the novelty of everything outweighs the rest.
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Re: Morgana's Swedish & Icelandic log

Postby Neurotip » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:58 pm

Morgana wrote:other days every line of dialogue is incomprehensible mumbling. I'm not entirely convinced they are saying words, but mmhhnkrrrþþhhhbngrrbmhhhlþmrhhhmrrrrððþmrrr. I think Neurotip and Soffía were joking about Icelandic being an elaborate hoax several months back. Well...

I know, I know. My best tips at the moment are (1) to assume that v (or f when it sounds like v), ð and g (the 'soft' one between vowels), if they exist at all in normal speech, are mostly just gestures towards the tongue position you'd expect; and (2) short unstressed syllables are often very rapid indeed. Just taking a random line from Hrútar (around 54' if you have it): 'Hvað segiði? Eruði búin að hreinsa?', for example, sounds like 3 and 6 syllables respectively instead of the 4 and 8 you might expect, since the 'i's are incredibly short and none of the ðs are really audible (although they probably have some effect on the rhythm and tongue position, I guess) - also remembering that the 'ei' in 'hreinsa' is short, closer to 'e' than it is to 'ei' in 'ein'. Oh, and it's just occurred to me that 'eruði' is a way of writing 'eruð þið', which also helps to prove the point.

That was one of the things that made me laugh about unit 15 of VLÍ, that the only part of the stream of mumblage from the car mechanic that I could actually relate to the subtitles was the meaningless 'sko' :)
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Re: Morgana's Swedish & Icelandic log

Postby StringerBell » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:22 pm

Morgana wrote:
Icelandic: Alright, that's it, I've had it with pages of vocabulary without context. Course makers: don't do this! I said it a while back too that I was going to start skipping exercises, but I didn't because "surely they wouldn't be there if they weren't necessary" well I'm tired of those. I'm going to be working on Colloquial Icelandic for probably another year at the pace I'm going. No thanks.


***Since I haven't mentioned Steve Kaufman in a while :D , this might be a good time to mention that in one of his videos where he discusses how he uses beginning textbook resources, he said that he reads through the lessons but never does any of the exercises because he finds them to be a waste of time. So it seems that you are in good company!
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Re: Morgana's Swedish & Icelandic log

Postby Morgana » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:27 pm

Neurotip wrote:
Morgana wrote:other days every line of dialogue is incomprehensible mumbling. I'm not entirely convinced they are saying words, but mmhhnkrrrþþhhhbngrrbmhhhlþmrhhhmrrrrððþmrrr. I think Neurotip and Soffía were joking about Icelandic being an elaborate hoax several months back. Well...

I know, I know. My best tips at the moment are (1) to assume that v (or f when it sounds like v), ð and g (the 'soft' one between vowels), if they exist at all in normal speech, are mostly just gestures towards the tongue position you'd expect; and (2) short unstressed syllables are often very rapid indeed. Just taking a random line from Hrútar (around 54' if you have it): 'Hvað segiði? Eruði búin að hreinsa?', for example, sounds like 3 and 6 syllables respectively instead of the 4 and 8 you might expect, since the 'i's are incredibly short and none of the ðs are really audible (although they probably have some effect on the rhythm and tongue position, I guess) - also remembering that the 'ei' in 'hreinsa' is short, closer to 'e' than it is to 'ei' in 'ein'. Oh, and it's just occurred to me that 'eruði' is a way of writing 'eruð þið', which also helps to prove the point.

That was one of the things that made me laugh about unit 15 of VLÍ, that the only part of the stream of mumblage from the car mechanic that I could actually relate to the subtitles was the meaningless 'sko' :)
I would be very interested in hearing the details of your intensive listening practice, should you want to share them in your October update :) Your listening skills are obviously miles ahead of mine, or you have a transcript of Hrútar, or probably both. No matter which of the aforementioned are the case, you're definitely putting more effort into it than I am, and I should probably up my game a bit!

StringerBell wrote:
Morgana wrote:
Icelandic: Alright, that's it, I've had it with pages of vocabulary without context. Course makers: don't do this! I said it a while back too that I was going to start skipping exercises, but I didn't because "surely they wouldn't be there if they weren't necessary" well I'm tired of those. I'm going to be working on Colloquial Icelandic for probably another year at the pace I'm going. No thanks.


***Since I haven't mentioned Steve Kaufman in a while :D , this might be a good time to mention that in one of his videos where he discusses how he uses beginning textbook resources, he said that he reads through the lessons but never does any of the exercises because he finds them to be a waste of time. So it seems that you are in good company!
;) Knowing and doing are two totally different things for me: I know it's fine to skip exercises, but it's another thing to actually go ahead and skip them. I always feel like I'll miss something (but that's not even true, and if it is I'm sure I will have lots of opportunities to come across it later). Anyway, I think I'm at the right (bored, impatient) stage to follow through :lol:
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Re: Morgana's Swedish & Icelandic log

Postby Morgana » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:41 am

Today, for some reason rather than finish off unit 3 in TY Complete Finnish, I decided to review units 1-3. And I didn't even get up to where I left off yesterday. Smooth. On the bright side I started watching Bordertown on Netflix last night. Compared to Icelandic, Finnish is a breath of fresh air. I know but a small handful of words, but I was pretty sure I recognized them every single time they were spoken!

I know... I'm pretty hard on Icelandic (enunciate!), but it's all for giggles and it will always have its special place in my heart. I hope in all my remarks about the difficulty with listening comprehension, it doesn't come across as being demotivated. I'm rather indifferent about the lack of comprehension. I have a lot of trust that, just like Swedish, one day it's going to be alright. And I just have to keep believing until that happens ;) Moreover, I only know two verb tenses!! I hardly know anything yet. Just like with Swedish, I'm sure it's going to come as I broaden my vocabulary.

And speaking of Swedish: last night I found myself working out the meanings of words I didn't know during Bonusfamiljen, purely via listening. No pausing, no dictionary. I'll likely not remember them next time I hear them, but still it was kind of neat to be able to do that. I am probably going on too much about all these little developments, being able to read extensively, finishing my first book, etc. but for someone who felt so frustrated nearly all of the time through the beginner stage, who doubted she would even make it very far, who couldn't ever see that it would be less of a struggle one day... these are pretty huge for me. Sure, all you intermediate and advanced learners are probably like, "Big deal, that's nothing! I've done it in 10 languages!" and that's super cool, it really is, and I hope I'm there one day too. But this is my first L2 and it's just... I don't know, it's like now that I can enjoy it, I'm just savouring all these little moments that are new.

Edit: I forgot to add that as of today I'm really doing Finnish without Anki. I want to stick to not using SRS for this language and see how it goes. It's "just dabbling" (hahaha) and doesn't currently matter as much to me as my two "main" languages, so I suppose there is less "risk." Risk of what, I don't know. I'm inspired by the learners here not doing explicit vocab study. Just like with learning Swedish and proving to myself that I could get to the level I'm at, I just have to prove it to myself that I can do without SRS.
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Re: Morgana's Swedish & Icelandic log

Postby Neurotip » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:58 pm

Morgana wrote:I would be very interested in hearing the details of your intensive listening practice, should you want to share them in your October update :) Your listening skills are obviously miles ahead of mine, or you have a transcript of Hrútar, or probably both. No matter which of the aforementioned are the case, you're definitely putting more effort into it than I am, and I should probably up my game a bit!

Tee hee, well number one I'm using subtitles - I really doubt I'd be able to transcribe more than half of the words otherwise, and half of those I'd get wrong* - and number two I'm not sure I have a method exactly, just a long-standing unhealthy obsession with phonetics. Nonetheless thank you and I'll bear your comments in mind when I'm writing this month's update :)

*might be a good exercise though, on reflection
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Re: Morgana's Swedish & Icelandic log

Postby koolawant » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:53 am

There is nothing better than the feeling of just enjoying a language! I can't wait until I'm 100% there myself. So close, but so far
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Re: Morgana's Swedish & Icelandic log

Postby Elenia » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:09 pm

Morgana wrote:And speaking of Swedish: last night I found myself working out the meanings of words I didn't know during Bonusfamiljen, purely via listening. No pausing, no dictionary. I'll likely not remember them next time I hear them, but still it was kind of neat to be able to do that. I am probably going on too much about all these little developments, being able to read extensively, finishing my first book, etc. but for someone who felt so frustrated nearly all of the time through the beginner stage, who doubted she would even make it very far, who couldn't ever see that it would be less of a struggle one day... these are pretty huge for me. Sure, all you intermediate and advanced learners are probably like, "Big deal, that's nothing! I've done it in 10 languages!" and that's super cool, it really is, and I hope I'm there one day too. But this is my first L2 and it's just... I don't know, it's like now that I can enjoy it, I'm just savouring all these little moments that are new.


It is a big deal! It's thrilling and exciting and amazing! It will probably always be thrilling and exciting and amazing! Well done to you! :D
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