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koolawant
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby koolawant » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:07 am

congrats on finishing that book!
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Elenia
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby Elenia » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:11 am

Morgana wrote:
StringerBell in Bex’s log wrote:I noticed something pretty important about those two thoughts. If the goal of memorizing words lists is to improve reading and listening and general understanding, why force yourself to do it (since you seem to dislike it) if your reading and listening are already going well? Word lists are a means to an end...but if you can work toward that end in a more pleasant way, is the unpleasant way necessary? Just a question.

I saw a Steve Kaufman video at some point where he said that he routinely learns, forgets, relearns, reforgets, and on and on until at some point the words stick. It's a normal and unavoidable part of learning a language. After seeing that video, I decided that I would not care if I couldn't recall a word that I'd known at some point. Eventually I learned something about myself: (1) I don't want to spend my brainpower attempting to memorize random words on a list because it's boring, I hate it, and then I have no idea how to use those words in context, and (2) I remember words best by looking them up repeatedly, seeing them in context over and over, and attempting to use them when trying to speak.

If you like memorizing lists of words, then don't let me talk you out of it, but it seems like you're avoiding it and disliking it, so...why bother? If you can reach the end by a more pleasant method (reading and listening) maybe the unpleasant method isn't necessary.

I only have 2 language learning rules: (1) consistency, and (2) don't do anything I hate or is boring. There is plenty of stuff in life that is awful and boring and we have to force ourselves to do. Language learning shouldn't be one of those...it should be something we look forward to!

If you are really bothered by not remembering words/expressions, there are plenty of other things you can do to help yourself...just as one idea, I'll share what I recently started doing with Italian. While reading an article, when I come across a word/expression that is really interesting, useful, or keeps coming up (and I keep having to look it up), I copy+paste the whole sentence containing that word into a word doc. I color code the word, and I write a definition. Everytime I come across that word in another sentence, I copy+paste the whole sentence until I have like 4-5. By the time I accumulate that many sentences, I generally tend to remember the meaning of the word without having to deal with any boring lists. Here is a screen grab so you can see what this looks like:
Italian.png

***guess which word I know by heart now???

The benefit of doing something like this is that I learn the word in context, which for me is much more useful. If I just tried to memorize that "trascorrere" = "to spend" I'd probably assume it was about spending money, and would probably not associate it with spending time, or spending an afternoon, or any other the other ways it's used. However, by focusing on the context of the way the word is used, it's obvious that it's about spending time vs. spending money, and it would never cross my mind to use this verb in the context of money (though maybe it can be used like that, who knows? I'll keep a lookout for it in that context to figure it out!)
I had to save this here for my own reference because this seems like an amazing way to tackle vocabulary in the intermediate level and will also provide one the ability to notice how a word is used as multiple examples of usage are collected over time! I have been compiling paper lists in a notebook, but of course if one does it on a tablet or laptop then that list becomes searchable. I already handwrite the sentences so typing them instead should not require much (if any) extra time. StringerBell, this is a great idea! (Also, I am really glad you keep mentioning Kaufmann because there are some key things in his videos that I either miss because I focus on small details, or that maybe just hearing them rephrased by someone else makes them stand out more. There are a few on the forum who practice the attitude he promotes, and I appreciate everybody who bothers to cycle back and mention the basic ideas about the comprehensible input approach now and then because it gives me the little lightbulb moments that I seem to need to experience repeatedly before I finally figure it out!)


I also do something similar! I put my notes into an excel document. Currently, I have 236 separate entries (where, for example, tillitlig and tillitlighet are two separate entries*) and 221 examples. Not all of the entries have usage examples yet, but some have up to four. I really like this method. Like you, I also take paper notes. I like handwriting most of my examples first and entering them into my excel document later as both writing by hand and then working with the word again when inputting it into the document helps me to remember it better. It sometimes takes a while for me to get things in the document, but that's okay. I keep it in alphabetical order, with the TL entry, English translation, and then example sentences. Simply scrolling through the document to add in a new word gives me a little bit more exposure to the older words.

*They are separate because I wanted to have both of them. I don't, for example, have both angelägen and angelägenhet, because I didn't feel the need for both.
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jeff_lindqvist
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:29 pm

Elenia wrote:(where, for example, tillitlig and tillitlighet are two separate entries*)


Do you mean pålitlig and pålitlighet? (Or tillförlitlig and tillförlitlighet?)
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Elenia
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby Elenia » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:56 pm

Morgana wrote:Yes Elenia! I saw that you were using Excel for a similar purpose but for some reason I must've been less open to ideas when I read it. I am thinking about how to implement my own version of both what you and StringerBell are doing. I like the idea of collecting and organizing sentences based on the root of words I struggle to remember and thus being able to see the connections between how words sharing the same root are used. It'd be great for sorting out synonyms as well. It seems so obvious to do this now that it's been spelled out for me by both of you!


It probably helped to have a visual! I don't know how to attach pictures without uploading them somewhere, so it's kind of hard to figure out how it works in practice with my method!

jeff_lindqvist wrote:
Elenia wrote:(where, for example, tillitlig and tillitlighet are two separate entries*)


Do you mean pålitlig and pålitlighet? (Or tillförlitlig and tillförlitlighet?)


Tillförlitlig is what I meant! :oops: Thankfully, I have it right in the document!
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby Elenia » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:21 pm

I gave Lingq a try for Finnish. I wasn't a huge fan and, as far as I recall, there weren't any actual plans to take it out of beta. I definitely recommend looking at what's available first before going for a subscription.
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby DaveAgain » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:52 pm

Morgana wrote:[
Finnish: I'm also doing the same thing with Finnish: rotating resources, since I have a few. It might not be evenly applied effort across all of them because starting-from-zero material is very repetitive. I'm currently into chapter 2 of TY Complete Finnish. I heard Finnish was in beta on LingQ and I am tempted, but I think it'd be too painful to plunge into reading just yet :lol: It's a dabbling language so I feel some liberty to experiment with how I do it, but I also don't want to waste time with activities that may be too futile at the A0 stage. Though TY is really pushing me toward LingQ :twisted:
I'm at A0 in German. Not loving Berlitz's German in 30 days, I've stopped doing the grammar exercises, and added L-R. (I'm using Undine at the moment, but some kind german soul has made amateur recordings of Lloyd Alexander's Prydain books, so I've started listening to those too. I don't have texts for the Prydain books yet, but I know those stories very well.)

Gutenberg have a finnish translation of A gentleman of France [finnish | english] which is a fun swashbuckler.
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby Elenia » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Morgana wrote:
Elenia wrote:I gave Lingq a try for Finnish. I wasn't a huge fan and, as far as I recall, there weren't any actual plans to take it out of beta. I definitely recommend looking at what's available first before going for a subscription.
Thank you, I hadn't realized the beta status was referring to the lack of content. LingQ seemed to be much more useful to you for Swedish, if I recall correctly.


Yep, it was massively helpful for Swedish. I sometimes forget just how much I used Linq for Swedish, but really, it made a difference! (Also, we can say that Lingq made the biggest difference for me because of Jeff's recordings and a recommendation he gave there for the HTLAL forums! Thanks again, Jeff!)
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Neurotip
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby Neurotip » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:35 pm

Congrats on the Sw book completion!

Morgana wrote:Edit: Further thinking on something I read in a Kjellin paper, I believe; it was about minimal pairs and how it's a bad idea to study those because you'll be sure to mix them up long-term. It probably applies to things beyond minimal pairs.

Absolutely agree, make sure you meet each in a different context and the problem disappears.

Morgana wrote:For whatever reason I never had this trouble with Swedish (var/where and vart/where to) or Icelandic (hvar/where and hvaðan/where from and!!! hvert/where to).

Ha, this is one I never had a problem with either, but I know why: last Christmas I was charmed by Björk singing fólk vissi ekki hvaðan hann kom // eða hvert hann fór and it stuck. (I must systematise this way of learning sometime...) Unfortunately now I stare at hvort and wonder which direction that one means :)
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Re: Morgana's Swedish & Icelandic log

Postby Neurotip » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:58 pm

Morgana wrote:other days every line of dialogue is incomprehensible mumbling. I'm not entirely convinced they are saying words, but mmhhnkrrrþþhhhbngrrbmhhhlþmrhhhmrrrrððþmrrr. I think Neurotip and Soffía were joking about Icelandic being an elaborate hoax several months back. Well...

I know, I know. My best tips at the moment are (1) to assume that v (or f when it sounds like v), ð and g (the 'soft' one between vowels), if they exist at all in normal speech, are mostly just gestures towards the tongue position you'd expect; and (2) short unstressed syllables are often very rapid indeed. Just taking a random line from Hrútar (around 54' if you have it): 'Hvað segiði? Eruði búin að hreinsa?', for example, sounds like 3 and 6 syllables respectively instead of the 4 and 8 you might expect, since the 'i's are incredibly short and none of the ðs are really audible (although they probably have some effect on the rhythm and tongue position, I guess) - also remembering that the 'ei' in 'hreinsa' is short, closer to 'e' than it is to 'ei' in 'ein'. Oh, and it's just occurred to me that 'eruði' is a way of writing 'eruð þið', which also helps to prove the point.

That was one of the things that made me laugh about unit 15 of VLÍ, that the only part of the stream of mumblage from the car mechanic that I could actually relate to the subtitles was the meaningless 'sko' :)
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Re: Morgana's Swedish & Icelandic log

Postby StringerBell » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:22 pm

Morgana wrote:
Icelandic: Alright, that's it, I've had it with pages of vocabulary without context. Course makers: don't do this! I said it a while back too that I was going to start skipping exercises, but I didn't because "surely they wouldn't be there if they weren't necessary" well I'm tired of those. I'm going to be working on Colloquial Icelandic for probably another year at the pace I'm going. No thanks.


***Since I haven't mentioned Steve Kaufman in a while :D , this might be a good time to mention that in one of his videos where he discusses how he uses beginning textbook resources, he said that he reads through the lessons but never does any of the exercises because he finds them to be a waste of time. So it seems that you are in good company!
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