sctroyenne: French, Irish, Spanish (new beginnings?)

[sctroyenne]

Thank you! Those little notes help a lot - I've been focusing on certain sounds that I'm not happy with so that gives me suggestions for others. I sound really awkward when trying to recite my SRS cards but I think it makes a big difference for when I read aloud.

[sctroyenne]

So I've been MIA for a while now. Work was causing toxic levels of stress and I had a lot of "real life" stuff going on so my internet use was limited to pretty passive, mindless activities. One of the things I was dealing with was the TCF exam for Quebec. I learned that a deadline was coming up for applications for Quebec immigration and I absolutely needed to have my language tests done with results received in time to include the documents in my application dossier. Well, as it turns out as I was going over the list of the other documents I needed I learned that my work history probably wouldn't give me the sufficient points needed for my application (not all would be considered full time, an internship I did wasn't for academic credit so I don't think it will count, etc) so I didn't really need to take the test at this time but it's done anyway.

Even though I'm a native speaker, I still need to take an English exam if I want English points in the application so I took the IELTS, the only test Canada accepts. It was actually pretty good to go through the standardized test experience as a preparation for the TCF Quebec. I did no prep work in advance, not even to see the structure of the exam, as things were horrible at work and I was barely sleeping. I got a 9 (the max) on every section except for reading comprehension where I got a 8.5 (those damn comprehension questions can be so tricky). So if you take the test as a non-native speaker and get a 9 on reading comprehension you can have bragging rights.

For Quebec, knowledge of French gets you the most number of points and the points are broken down for different skills with the most going to Listening Comprehension and Speaking. You get points starting at B2 and get the max with C2. Reading and Writing are optional but give you points if you have B2 (nothing more). For my application (before I confirmed the points I would get for work) I determined I'd need at least a C2 and C1 for the listening/speaking sections.

I had planned on doing a lot of intensive study for the French exam leading up to the test date in mid-December, but again, work got in the way which I really resent. Since B2 gives the max points for Reading and Writing I didn't have to focus on them very much since I felt I could get at least a B2 with minimal prep. I did take some practice exams which were able to grade the comprehension sections. From the beginning Listening Comprehension was a thorn in my side. The questions can be so tricky, subjective even (which I confirmed with natives), and there's NO time. There are around 30 questions and the time allocated is also about 30 minutes which includes the time to play the audio clips (which get to be longer than a minute long once you get towards the end). So you don't really have the time to read over the question and the answers before you listen to the clip which is what you should do to have an idea of what you should be listening for (the English test gave time in the recording to read over the questions and proposed answers before the clip played).

In practice exams I'd get anywhere from a low B2 all the way to C2 so I was feeling really discouraged, like it was a crap shoot. Since there are so few questions there's almost no room for error. I was crossing my fingers that I would get a C1 in this section (C2 if it was a really good day) and hoped for a C2 in speaking to give me the points I needed. I didn't have a lot of prep time but I did go over the structure for the speaking and writing sections: an allotted amount of time with 6 questions to respond to, each corresponding to the different levels. For writing the upper level questions have you read an excerpt from an article or two and summarize/respond to them. Speaking is only about 15 minutes so short and sweet while writing is the longest.

What didn't help is that the various prep materials don't replicate the conditions of the listening exam. The ones online are presented individually so you can press play whenever you're ready (after reading over the answer options). You *don't* get that much time during the test. My prep book came with a CD which put all the questions on separate tracks instead of one long track with fixed time between each questions the way the audio is during the exam. I couldn't play them one by one like with the online test as that wouldn't be preparing me for the speed but when I let the CD play through all the tracks automatically it went SO fast with no time to think and I was afraid that that was how the exam was going to be.

On exam day I started out with the comprehension sections, listening first. Since the test is for Quebec the audio uses a range of accents from standard Parisian to light Quebecois, to a heavier joual. I was pretty anxious going in. But as I went through the questions I was feeling pretty sure about almost all of them. The audio wasn't nearly as rapid as when I played my prep CD so it felt a little bit more relaxed. I felt pretty good about this section so I thought that maybe I could pull off a C2/C2. Reading comprehension followed immediately and went pretty well - there were a couple I was uncertain on but I knew I only needed a B2 and I felt 100% sure about the questions at the end, which correspond to C1/C2 level and thus carry more weight in the grading.

We had a break before the writing and then we had scheduled times for the speaking so more of a break again (I ended up being scheduled last).

Starting at writing, I realized that the structure of the exam was changed in the time since my test prep materials were published (they were for 2014 and were the newest I could find). Instead of about an hour and around 40 minutes to write responses to 6 questions (with progressively longer word counts) we had an hour to do 3 questions that were a bit longer. And for speaking instead of responding to 6 questions in about 15 minutes we were to respond to 3 in the same amount of time.

The time allocated for writing ended up being ridiculously short. We were given response sheets with pens and scratch paper. They required clean copies so we needed to do most of our writing on the scratch paper and then transfer our writing to the answer sheet. We had scratch paper for the English test as well but we had pencils with erasers so no pressure to make sure the writing was perfect before we wrote on the answer sheet (we also had far more time and only two questions to respond to). We also needed to adhere to strict word counts and we were expected to write the word count in a box on the sheet (so you can't just keep a running estimate as you go the way I did for the English test) and we didn't know that we were the ones who had to fill in the word count box until towards the end of the test when someone asked. So everything had to be written, copied over, and counted and one question had an article to read and respond to all under one hour. I started off trying to be as conscientious as I could, choosing my words carefully and checking my spelling/agreements. I started off the last question fairly strongly but the time started running away from me and it was clear that I didn't have time to write it out then copy it over so my writing got more and more frantic. It was also during this section that we were told to be sure to fill in our word counts so I was frantically trying to go back and count everything which I had only estimated while trying to finish off the third question. I'm pretty sure I ended up going over the word count for that question which carries penalties but there was nothing I could do.

I went in thinking speaking would be my best section. From what I had prepared there were supposed to be 6 questions demanding a different set of skills - one where you talk about yourself, one where you state an opinion/personal preference on something, one where you have to ask questions to inform yourself about something such as finding a job, one where you talk about a hypothetical situation like "what would you do if you won the lottery", one where you give an opinion about society and everyday debates over things like "should there be age limits for drinking alcohol?" and the last one which was similar but asked for a much more academic/theoretical/philosophical response. I thought I could shine on the last one and the one before last would depend on what kind question they asked (I'm losing my capacity to bullshit about subjects I don't care at all about so if it was a topic I cared little for I could have trouble fleshing out a decent response).

Well, with the structure change it means they dropped half the questions and each one required a longer response. I did great on the first one which was literally just tell me about yourself. The second question was the asking questions one. Except it wasn't for a complicated situation that requires many questions such as asking about jobs, about the immigration process, about enrolling in a university program, etc. I was supposed to ask about transportation options in a city in Quebec. And with the lengthened response time I had to do this for about 3 minutes, which is an eternity when I'm limited to asking things such as bus frequency, fares, etc and the exam proctor stated outright at the beginning that there's no subway. She had to indicate to me to keep going because it was such a dead topic. Looking back, I could have gone outside the scope of the initial conversation and turned it into some sort of discussion/debate about transportation in general (go into a rant about poor public transportation or start a discussion about taxis vs. Uber) but I didn't really think I could step out of bounds of the assignment. The third question wasn't at the level of the last question in the 6 question format so not a lot of opportunity to pontificate on a subject. It was, "Is it important to inform yourself before immigrating?" which is on the cusp of an interesting topic about immigration and integration overall but it had such a limited personal scope. Again, looking back, with a little strategy and savviness I could have expanded on the initial scope of the question to flesh the answer out into something that would have filled the allotted answer time and would have allowed me to pull in more advanced language use. But I was stressed due to the exam itself, the unexpected structure change, and the mounting pressure as I became more and more disappointed in my answers and as I was flailing to figure out what to say to keep responding.

So I started off feeling pretty good but left feeling really disappointed. I thought I had a chance at a C2/C2 with the listening going pretty well (though I was no where near certain I had a C2 for that section) but now I was afraid that even a C2/C1 wasn't possible.

And now, the results.



So, in listening comprehension which I was so worried about, I ended up not only with a C2 but a score of 699 which is a perfect score! With reading comprehension at 690 I probably missed one question somewhere in the middle. I'm not worried about the writing as B2 is all I need to get the max points for Quebec. I felt the quality of my responses were C1 level at least but the word count issue may have given me penalties (which to me is kind of stupid - I'm not writing for a newspaper or Twitter, some of the only situations where a max word counts but whatever) and writing without being able to verify spellings and whatnot could mean I may have had too many mistakes. I could maybe ask to see a copy of the corrections to see where it suffered but I really don't think I can ever produce the writing I'm capable of in the context of a standardized exam (which doesn't really reflect writing in real life), especially one like this one. I'm disappointed with a C1 in speaking since I know I was capable of a C2 but not surprised considering how I felt after my performance. At least I didn't get B2 and I have my C2/C1 I was aiming for.

Something that does make me feel a bit better: I was at the Alliance Française and the test proctor was there and congratulated me on my results. She said she was actually surprised they put me at C1 for speaking - she felt like I was between a C1 and C2. She thinks that since my strongest response was for the first question which was pretty predictable they may have weighed it downwards and she said it can depend on the mood and the particularities of the evaluator. So I have it direct from the person who gave the exam: my speaking even when I'm not at my best is between a C1 and C2.

[galaxyrocker]

First off, welcome back! It's nice to see that you're doing well, and hopefully things are calming down a bit for you. Second off, congratulations! Those are amazing results, and it seems like you got what you needed for immigration (if I'm understanding everything correctly), so hopefully that works out in your favor!

What would you say this puts your overall level at? Between a C1 and C2? Either way, it's nice to see that you've got this, and definitely shows me it's possible.

[sctroyenne]

First off, welcome back! It's nice to see that you're doing well, and hopefully things are calming down a bit for you. Second off, congratulations! Those are amazing results, and it seems like you got what you needed for immigration (if I'm understanding everything correctly), so hopefully that works out in your favor!

What would you say this puts your overall level at? Between a C1 and C2? Either way, it's nice to see that you've got this, and definitely shows me it's possible.

Thank you! Yes, things are calmer now and I have a new work situation that will be demanding but I think will make me happy and give me a lot of great opportunities (and it involves French!).

Difficult to say how my level would be defined by my results but that sounds about right. Stronger comprehension skills than production skills which is pretty normal. If I had taken the DALF C2 I probably would have passed with the comprehension scores pulling up the weaker production skills (though the structure of the exam is completely different, would have required different preparation, etc). I may have done better on the speaking since it would have been just one intellectual topic which is easier for me in terms of being able to think of things to say (though it depends on what the topic would have been). Writing probably would have been my weakest section (though I would have prepped for it a lot more - the prep involved for the writing on the DALF is what kept me from taking it for so long) but my score would have probably been sufficient.

*edit* I just looked at result pages for the regular TCF and not just the TCF Quebec and saw that they put an overall average and indicate an overall level based on the 699-point scale. So I converted the points in the parts that are a given a score over 20 (I was one point away from C2 in speaking and one away from C1 in writing) to 699, averaged everything together and got 609 which means I'm officially C2!

[Cavesa]

WOW!!! You're awesome! Congratulations!

These are great results. And thanks a lot for the information about TCF, I haven't found a better review yet. It is really weird the preparatory books for TCF are not up to day though, even though it doesn't surprise me that much. The time limits sound very stressing. And a native speaker doing IELTS, that is interesting! And actually a bit funny that Canada requires that.

Btw in DALF C2, you don't have the four sections. Comprehension and production are tied together, one part is oral, the other is written. So it is a bit hard to judge how does the evaluation take into account unbalanced skills. With your results, I believe you would have no problem at the spoken part. The writing in DALF might however be a bit more academical and nitpicky (and less practical) than in TCF, judging by tasks in a preparatory book I had used a few years ago. It would take a different kind of preparation but I don't think you'd have much of a trouble passing, should you want a certificate valid for a lifetime.

[sctroyenne]

WOW!!! You're awesome! Congratulations!

These are great results. And thanks a lot for the information about TCF, I haven't found a better review yet. It is really weird the preparatory books for TCF are not up to day though, even though it doesn't surprise me that much. The time limits sound very stressing. And a native speaker doing IELTS, that is interesting! And actually a bit funny that Canada requires that.

Btw in DALF C2, you don't have the four sections. Comprehension and production are tied together, one part is oral, the other is written. So it is a bit hard to judge how does the evaluation take into account unbalanced skills. With your results, I believe you would have no problem at the spoken part. The writing in DALF might however be a bit more academical and nitpicky (and less practical) than in TCF, judging by tasks in a preparatory book I had used a few years ago. It would take a different kind of preparation but I don't think you'd have much of a trouble passing, should you want a certificate valid for a lifetime.

Thank you!

Yeah, I saw that they're tied together but do they score them separately? Quebec will separate the numerical scores and score the different skills based on the exam performance (so if you have an overall C2 but a lower point level for speaking they'll grant you a point or two less for speaking on your application). When I thought of doing the DALF and was hesitating between C1 and C2 the fact that comprehension wasn't evaluated based on tricky multiple choice questions for C2 appealed to me.

And yeah, it kind of surprises me that the most recent prep materials don't match the current format of the test, but then again it doesn't surprise me that much.

There was one other native English speaker in my test room. I felt kind of guilty being surrounded by the other stressed out people looking over their notebooks one last time before they entered the test center.

[Cavesa]

Yeah, I saw that they're tied together but do they score them separately? Quebec will separate the numerical scores and score the different skills based on the exam performance (so if you have an overall C2 but a lower point level for speaking they'll grant you a point or two less for speaking on your application). When I thought of doing the DALF and was hesitating between C1 and C2 the fact that comprehension wasn't evaluated based on tricky multiple choice questions for C2 appealed to me.

And yeah, it kind of surprises me that the most recent prep materials don't match the current format of the test, but then again it doesn't surprise me that much.

There was one other native English speaker in my test room. I felt kind of guilty being surrounded by the other stressed out people looking over their notebooks one last time before they entered the test center.

No, they score them together. They surely have some intern methodology to take both comprehension and production into account but you get one oral score and one writen score at the C2 level. In the end, you need to have at least 10 out of 50 in each part and a sum of at least 50 out of 100. I liked the absence of multiple choice as well, even though the writing really gave me lots of stress, especially as I find the preparatory books not that good when it comes to writing (the real tasks are quite different from those in preparatory books and some important things aren't explained in those books at all)

The prep materials don't surprise me so much as I even found out the test centers can be confused even about the official organisation stuff.

You are actually one of the rare people who can bring a new light into the old argument in most discussions about levels: what is a foreign language exam like for a native speaker? Do you think a native English speaker with lower education than yours could have problem achieving high scores?

[sctroyenne]

You are actually one of the rare people who can bring a new light into the old argument in most discussions about levels: what is a foreign language exam like for a native speaker? Do you think a native English speaker with lower education than yours could have problem achieving high scores?

Interesting question. I'd definitely say it's possible that a native speaker could fail to get top scores. But you can also walk in with no prep and get top scores (which I think could be hard for a French native speaker to do with the DALF who's been out of the school system for a while). I got the 8.5 in reading comprehension, though I looked up the conversion and IELTS says that 8.5 would count for C2. I found the listening comprehension questions to be really easy - nothing threw me off at all. There are actually quite a few portions of the listening that are a series of questions based on one audio clip. One was a phone conversation with someone interested in booking a trip and another one that was an announcement for a tour of a facility with the questions based on the map of the facility printed in the booklet (really practical audio tasks, actually). A native who's really bad at interpreting simple maps and directions and/or who is dyslexic might have had trouble with that series. Reading comprehension questions had a little bit of trickery.

The written wasn't too bad and doesn't require any specialized knowledge of writing. The first part was to write a letter to a friend describing a training class you've taken, what you did, what you learned, and to recommend the course to the friend. I don't totally remember the topic for the second essay but it was something about how average age when people first get married and have children has been going up and what caused it and whether or not it's a problem (I remember writing something about how the perspective of periods of life has changed over time and now there's a sort of extended period of adolescence that extends into a person's twenties). A native might not get max points and one who doesn't write particularly well could maybe fail to get C2 or maybe even C1 but most should be able to do fine.

Speaking is pretty informal and is set up like the TCF (though there were more questions). The last, most difficult question was about intellectual property issues and international politics (don't remember if the question specifically mentioned China or if it was strongly implied). I could see some natives having difficulty with that topic and not being able to fake their way through it. I did fine but anyone taking this kind of exam needs to know how to keep talking so they have some language to evaluate even if you have nothing great to say about the topic (being to say "I don't know" in a way that uses more advanced language use). The other questions called on me to share my own anecdotes (which the TCF questions didn't do) which made them easy to be very expressive on.

Oh and I looked up how Quebec interprets the C2 results. It looks like your results *are* bundled together so if you get a minimum of 32 out of 50 for the listening/speaking section you will get max points for both on your application even if your production wasn't very strong. Though in the exam the production is mainly what they're grading you on so it's not like in my case where I got max points for listening which can really pull up the average.

[sfuqua]

Great news! Great thread!
I really want to thank you more advanced folks for describing the whole test taking experience in detail. Those of us at the lower levels sometimes have difficulty imagining what it is like to be up in the C1/C2 range...

Thanks again

[sctroyenne]

Great news! Great thread!
I really want to thank you more advanced folks for describing the whole test taking experience in detail. Those of us at the lower levels sometimes have difficulty imagining what it is like to be up in the C1/C2 range...

Thanks again

Sometime soon I'll do a post about what I've been doing study wise over the past 2(?) years now and even more recently which has really pushed my level. I think a year ago I wouldn't have done as well and there are things that have definitely been a game changer working on going from C1 to C2.