sctroyenne: French, Irish, Spanish (new beginnings?)

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rlnv
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Re: sctroyenne: French, Irish, Spanish (new beginnings?)

Postby rlnv » Thu May 04, 2017 9:41 pm

Thank you for sharing your story, and congratulations on working out a solid plan for locating yourself to Montreal.

I would for one, and I'm sure I'm not alone, love to hear any other insights or perspectives you have on living in Montreal as an American. How life differs from the US west coast, observations on language switching, how practical usage of French in Quebec differs from France, etc. This is incredibly fascinating stuff.
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Re: sctroyenne: French, Irish, Spanish (new beginnings?)

Postby norgeka » Fri May 05, 2017 6:34 am

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Last edited by norgeka on Thu May 11, 2017 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rebonjour depuis le Québec!

Postby sctroyenne » Wed May 10, 2017 6:10 am

MorkTheFiddle wrote:Did you grow the beard before or after moving to Canada? 8-)


I actually think a having a beard is a requirement to pass the border. Montreal has been hipster before hipsters were even a thing so much so that beard nets have made their way into health codes:

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norgeka wrote:Also... You said you made it through winter fine... Is that all you have to say about it? :lol: (Just kidding, I'm a winter person but I know it's not for everyone.)


I can appreciate that there are some people who just can't deal with the winter (and most of the ones I know are people who grew up in winter climates and who are now in California). But honestly I had nothing against it. That could likely be dramatically different if I were car-dependent and that is one factor that would keep me from straying from Montreal into the rest of Quebec. And I should probably go through one or two more cycles of seasons before I know I won't truly dread it.

On average it was a fairly tame winter temperature-wise. While there were a few days that got low there were no sustained weeks of super low temperatures. Before, I didn't know how the extreme negative temperatures were humanly possible but now that I've been through it I learned that, properly dressed, you can be out in -15 to even -20°C/5 to about -5°F and still be fine (depending on factors like wind). I already had a jacket good for -40°, got some winter boots good for -40° as well and would usually wear a pair or two of fleece-lined leggings under my clothes, a neck tube, a scarf, a tuque, and some gloves. I found that the optimum winter temperature was between -5° to -10°C (in the low twenties to teens Fahrenheit) which felt pretty comfortable and even energizing. The worst was when it got up to just around freezing since that's when the crazy weather would happen, especially freezing rain which is just evil. The main annoyance factor is just getting all the gear on and off every time you come in and go out again. And I learned that you need to keep your smartphone in a warm pocket next to your body if you don't want the battery to drain and have it suddenly shut down.

I still like snow quite a bit even after the huge blizzard in March since I didn't have to deal with it much. It's quite beautiful when it's fresh and the city is pretty good at removing most of it before it starts getting too dirty. I also learned the "truth" behind the idea that languages could have hundreds of words for snow. I even managed to learn some new words in English such as snow squalls, snow flurries, and ice pellets (which are different from hail somehow).

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Snowbanks accumulated after about a month of minor snowfall plus one day of major snowfall.

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One day's worth of snow after the blizzard in March. Don't get a basement apartment folks!


Montreal snow clearing in action.

One thing that's not fun, though, is the tow truck alarm at 6:30 in the morning before they start snow removal. It's the most obnoxious sound imaginable in order to wake anybody up who still happens to be parked on the designated side of the street to give them one last chance to move their car and it lasts about a half an hour:



I learned you need to be extra careful whenever it's the first snow (Montreal drivers aren't legally obligated to put their snow tires on until December), when going "off-roading" off major sidewalks and when going down hill. Two of the three elements of danger presented in this scary yet hilarious viral video which took place after the first snow this past November:



If I ever do get a car, though, I learned the value of being prepared to be stuck somewhere overnight or longer. Same goes for at home in case there's an ice storm and power outages like in 1998. I naively asked people who lived through that what people do for heat and they said some people would bring their barbecues indoors and end up asphyxiating themselves. The weather can kill you if you're not prepared so you definitely need to know how you're getting home if you're going out and have supplies ready just in case.

The most horrifying story of the winter was the hundreds of drivers stuck overnight on the highway the night of the big blizzard which ended up inspiring this article claiming it proved Quebec's alleged lack of solidarity followed by a shitstorm in the press criticizing the author. I for one happen to appreciate the weather for the reason that it seems to create a feeling of solidarity. Talking about the weather is seen in most places as the ultimate example of banal small talk whereas here it's actually a constant fascinating subject of conversation (if you happen to follow hockey too you'll never be at a loss for conversation topics). All sorts of people get outside for winter sports, they help each other with shoveling, pushing cars, and whatnot, and when the weather is warm again it drives everybody out to the parks and terraces. And since everyone's covered up in winter gear fashion becomes kind of irrelevant so everyone can just be themselves.

From the holiday season up to mid-March there are tons of activities to get you out of the house as well such as Igloofest, an outdoor EDM festival that takes place on weekends in January and February...:



...and Montréal in Lumière in March:







From then things wind down, the snow melts and things look kind of ugly then Cabane à sucre season starts, then there's one day that gets to be about 10°C (50°F) and you practically feel like going out in a tank top and shorts, then Montreal gets its first really warm day and you know you're on you're way out of winter (even though it may still snow the following day).

I'll wrap up my reflections on my first real winter with a video of Montreal winter in all its glory featuring les sacres of québécois (because putain isn't the passe-partout word here as it is in France):

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Re: Rebonjour depuis le Québec!

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Wed May 10, 2017 6:09 pm

sctroyenne wrote:
If I ever do get a car, though, I learned the value of being prepared to be stuck somewhere overnight or longer. Same goes for at home in case there's an ice storm and power outages like in 1998. I naively asked people who lived through that what people do for heat and they said some people would bring their barbecues indoors and end up asphyxiating themselves. The weather can kill you if you're not prepared so you definitely need to know how you're getting home if you're going out and have supplies ready just in case.

A super-warm sleeping bag at home is almost a necessity. Even in a "warm" climate like here in Texas, winter nights can be cold and power can go out overnight.
In a car have something to light a fire with. Several winters ago some folks got trapped in a blizzard and had nothing to light a fire with. The simplest and most reliable thing would be a cigarette lighter or two. The plastic kind has got fuel for about 100 lights and even after that there is the flint for making a spark. Note though that at high elevations they don't always work (voice of experience speaking!).

Otherwise, thanks for taking the time to give us such a splendid vivid portrayal of winter in Montreal.
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Re: Irish and other languages in Montreal!

Postby sctroyenne » Wed May 31, 2017 5:25 am

So just like that, through a friend of a friend sort of thing, I stumbled upon the Irish speaking/learning community in Montreal. I haven't studied much since I started working two jobs about a year and a half ago (and before that I was focusing on my French for my language test). I would have liked to bring some of my books with me to get back into it but in the end I didn't end up with much room in my luggage so they didn't make it. I could see that Irish culture is pretty big here from the number of Irish pubs, the major presence of Irish organized crime (The West End Gang) and the enthusiasm the whole city had for the Saint Patrick's Day Parade. But it was when I learned that people in my circle were studying it (and had even been to the Gaeltacht) and that there was going to be a weekend Irish language workshop that I finally found motivation to start actively studying again.

I wanted to review to get my Irish back in shape so as to not have to still need to review really basic things during the class. I started off by going over my Duolingo Irish tree a bit. I re-watched some Aifric to get my ear going again (for a while the TG4 website's subtitles were down so that was an interesting experience). I went over all of my digitized materials and put my Gaeilge gan Stró audio back on my phone so I could listen to it while out of the house. I looked over some of the courses but felt dialogue-based courses weren't going to cut it to get my level back up quickly so finally over the past two weeks I drilled a lot of grammar with Nancy Stenson's workbooks based on Learning Irish by Micheal O'Siadhail. I figured that in such short time it would be useless to try to cram a bunch of vocabulary whereas the Learning Irish material gets you building fairly sophisticated sentences early on (which is one reason why it isn't necessarily the best resource for absolute beginners). That seemed pretty effective. Between my grammar drills and my useful phrases that I reviewed from Gaeilge gan Stró I wrote out a few introduction and conversation scripts the night before the class in anticipation for the sorts of things I could predict I'd be expected to talk about.

I'm not sure if the Irish learning community is bigger in Montreal than in San Francisco but it certainly feels that way due to how centralized it seems. Montreal is lucky to have an Irish studies program in Concordia University right downtown (where the workshops were held) with Irish teachers sent through the Fulbright program. The same people involved in the university program (students and faculty) seem to also be involved in Irish cultural institutions and classes held with other groups who have a decent presence in the city thanks to the number of Irish pubs and Irish cultural centers. Concordia also granted the Irish study group organizing the weekend class space and their faculty members enthusiastically participated. There are also vibrant Irish and Celtic communities throughout Eastern Canada which reinforce their presence here in Montreal such as actual native communities in Nova Scotia and Cape Breton and the Permanent North American Gaeltacht in Ontario, the first officially-established Gaeltacht outside of Ireland (even though Irish is not spoken there natively or regularly, unfortunately). Students of Irish here in Canada can also win Fulbright summer study awards to go to the Gaeltacht in Ireland just as in the US (which is on my list of things to do...). I truly have a lifetime of Celtic culture to explore here without even having to go to Ireland.

There was a good turn out over the weekend and many people there had some pretty impressive levels of Irish. There were a few Irish people there hoping to brush up, many Irish studies students including several who had already been to Ireland with Fulbright awards or about to, and one free spirit traveler who found his way to Western Ireland and in the home of a proud Irish native speaker who refused to speak English who traveled up and down the Gaeltacht learning Irish through immersion. I was surprised that I was able to hold decent conversations with a lot of these people after all this time (especially since my conversation wasn't very strong yet). It was great meeting so many people interested in Irish and we all traded contact information to form little study groups. The Fulbright teacher at the end of the evening was practically in tears seeing how many people turned out, how many of them came from outside the Concordia Irish studies department, and how much enthusiasm there is for the language and culture here.

This is the kind of thing that displays why Montreal is such a multilingual paradise for people who love languages. You have two main languages: French (Quebec French, French from France thanks to the huge/growing French population here, and French from other francophone countries which is also growing) and English, very visibly-established older immigrant groups with community centers, bookstores, cafés, etc such as the Italian, Portuguese, Chinese, and Yiddish-speaking Hasidic Jewish communities as well as Spanish, Arab, Indian, and tons of other communities from all over. Then you have several major universities in English and French that attract international students and foster studies of even more languages. Montreal also has a great library with a huge collection in French, a decent collection in English, and materials available in other languages as well. It's also relatively affordable compared to other major cities which could allow for someone to come here for a short-term immersion stay and the country is relatively open to immigration which makes moving here a possibility.

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After meeting a bunch of French-speaking immigrants (many from France, Sénégal, and Haiti) at a networking event for immigrants and seeing just how many people from just how many places I can interact with thanks to French and then this weekend seeing just how in depth I can immerse myself in Irish culture it feels so wonderful how this place can allow me to meet such amazing people and understand the world at so many different levels. And I haven't even explored Spanish-speaking Montreal yet.
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Re: sctroyenne: French, Irish, Spanish (new beginnings?)

Postby galaxyrocker » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:29 am

Ah, your post really makes me want the city life, mainly for the access to varieties of cultures and languages and such. Sadly, it's not to be right now.

But glad you're getting back started with Irish. It truly is a fun language, and there's a great group of people involved with it throughout the globe. As I'm sure you're aware, Stenson also has two other books out: Beginning Irish and Intermediate Irish, both part of Routledge's Grammar Workbooks series. I absolutely love the series, and certainly recommend those two books to anyone. I have them both, and can send you chapter lists, or a chapter. Just PM me.
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Some observations on French in Québec

Postby sctroyenne » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:40 am

It's summer festival season in Montreal and the FrancoFolies festival which brought me out to visit Montreal for the first time two years ago is almost wrapping up. Seeing the festival again makes me feel a bit like I've come full circle. I've been enjoying myself a lot since it's just fun to walk out my front door for 15 minutes and have a bunch of free concerts and activities and knowing that this time I get to stick around and enjoy the rest of the summer afterwards makes it especially nice. I'll have a post coming up with a bunch of new French music recommandations from this year's festival (in the meantime you can check out my French Spotify playlist in my signature).

The topic of the French language in Quebec is a huge one and I am by no means an expert. I haven't yet made any strides to master the Quebec dialect or study it in depth yet I do pretty fine with communication. While there are many differences, it is for the most part and in most situations (especially in a big city like Montreal) not like a different language and "standard" French will get you by pretty fine.

Nevertheless there are some things that stick out to me. The first thing that really surprised me was tutoiement in places I didn't expect it. One of the first times I went to the pharmacy (note: pharmacies here are like Walgreens/CVS in the US: they sell everything and are open late) I was really confused when I thought I heard the middle-aged cashier at this large chain use tu with me. It didn't seem out of place from a bartender at a bar but here was much different. I tried avoiding using any statement that included a verb in response until I heard her speak again and could confirm that I heard her right. I've since encountered it a bit more though I'd definitely say most of the time vous is used. I *want* to say that cashiers using tu tend to be older but that may not be a rule. This can be very confusing for learners to figure out since in France the one 100% situation to always use vous in is in conversations between customers and service employees (either person in that situation using tu would be considered very disrespectful to the other).

You'll sometimes see ads that use tutoiement though it's by no means as common as in Spanish:

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Another thing that has surprised me when interacting with cashiers has been the pronunciation of dix, six, and huit. I would normally not pronounce the final letter when saying dix dollars (di dɔlaʀ) for example but cashiers will often repeat what I say, almost in a way to "correct" me it seems, pronouncing the final x (as an s of course): dis dɔlaʀ.

In the great pain au chocolat vs chocolatine wars you may see on the French internet, Quebec is firmly in the chocolatine camp:

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And to finish the discussion of conversations with service employees, when you say merci you'll hear the anglicized response bienvenue in response. I was teaching some visiting family some basic French when I was using je vous en prie when I remembered that they will indeed say bienvenue here. And when parting I've heard bonne fin de journée while I think I've only ever heard bonne journée or bonne soirée in France.

Speaking of anglicisms, when I was at the volunteer meetings for one of the festivals I worked for, I thought the French volunteer coordinator was trendily dropping some English terms into her speech when saying we would have right to a bagged lunch if we worked a long shift and that there would be a staff/volunteer party after the festival (pronounced in a very French manner). Turns out that both words are commonly used here in French.

And speaking of lunch, you may be surprised that the restaurant Tutti Frutti which seems to be advertising lunch and dinner in the picture below is only open from 6:00 AM to 3:00 PM:

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That's because déjeuner is breakfast, dîner is lunch (when it's not lunch), and souper would be dinner (or supper depending on your English dialect). I still have trouble not saying petit-déjeuner. I actually haven't yet encountered the word souper written or spoken here yet. In restaurants where they want to have separate lunch and dinner menus they'll use menu du midi and menu du soir.

One of the other signs in the above photo actually brings up another interesting and much-publicized aspect of the use of French in Quebec. I'm talking about the laws governing the use of the language which notoriously extend to signage. They are drawn up and enforced by the "language police" the Office québécois de la langue française (OQLF).

*Note: I'll have another post coming up about what I learned about the cultural place French has in Quebec and Canada which led to all these regulations which sometimes come off as silly, such as the bus ads advertising free French classes for recent immigrants in...French:

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Signs for businesses have to be translated into French unless they're some kind of proper name. If they can't really be translated and yet they're "too English" they supposed to add some sort of descriptor in French to their business name. In the case of H&R Block above, they came up with a catchy slogan in French to always display with their business name: Les pros de l'impôt.

Starbucks Coffee becomes Café Starbucks or Café Starbucks Coffee:

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The name Tim Horton by itself would have been fine since it's a proper noun but when they were Tim Horton's the apostrophe s made it clear it was a sign in English. So all across Canada they just changed the name to Tim Hortons transforming it back into a proper noun so they could create uniform signage, marketing and branding material. Apparently in some places in Canada you can still see old signs with the apostrophe.

Turbo Tax software gets sold as Impôtrapide with a fleur de lys over the i for extra Quebec-ness:

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Once, inside a Bureau en Gros (or Staples Business Depot), I spotted this certificate attesting the business is compliant with the language rules displayed on the same wall as all their business license, fire code compliance, etc:

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For products sold in Quebec, manufacturers sometimes take advantage of the different word order for adjectives and nouns in English and French in order to create a simplified label such as with mild cheddar doux or corn squares au maïs:

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Sometimes they print each side of the package differently and the stores alternate the displays:

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And sometimes they just simply put two labels on the box:

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Now, I think it's because these products may be imports or sold across provincial borders that they get away with displaying English first and equally as prominently as French. Otherwise the rule is if both languages are displayed, French needs to be "markedly prominent". This often means that French comes first and is notably larger than the other language(s) displayed. I once saw a bar/restaurant with a banner promoting their summer offerings who were trying the English adjective, noun, French adjective in all the same size font with some other English text coming first trick which I'm pretty sure is NOT compliant and could get them a fine or some kind of take down notice.

There are other situations where signs can only be in French, such as road signs (hence the Arrêt signs here while France has signs that say Stop).

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Sometimes businesses can get creative while seeming to remain in the rules:

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The regulations create situations where the English word for items that have been adopted into French in France will get translated literally into French in Quebec. Or in other cases where the French came up with a completely different word, Quebec's proximity to the rest of North America made them adopt a literal translation of the English term. This was something that was very weird for me because seeing them translated I would think of the literal terms and think of how bizarre the names were for things until I realized I just accepted them as is in English without thinking twice: sous-marin for submarine sandwich, vente de garage for garage sale (not garages for sale), téléphone intelligent for smartphone, maïs éclaté for popcorn, doigt de poulet for chicken fingers. In other cases it makes things easier on us English speakers such as with limonade for lemonade, melon d'eau for watermelon, and crème glacée for ice cream. But despite what my high school French textbook tried to teach me, it seems that chien chaud never really took off here for hot dog (though sometimes you'll see them referred to as steamies).

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That being said I have no idea how no idea where they got lait de poule (chicken milk) from:

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To wrap up this post, I'll talk about a bit of my confirmed observations of everyday Québécois French.

You hear tantôt used a lot which can have slightly different meanings depending on the context. It could be used to mean something that just happened (like with venir de + verb), in place of bientôt, or you may hear à tantôt used like à toute à l'heure. More on tantôt here.

A sort of filler word that gets used a lot, especially at the beginning of sentences to transition or to mean "so" is faque. It's used very similarly as alors, donc, and du coup are in France (there was an event in a bar here for the French PVT/student/expat community that was called La Soirée Du Coup).

Puis becomes pis here when spoken or when written in an informal context. When I was out at the bar with my favorite French band and one of the members was talking to his friend who moved here a few years ago he kept cracking up saying she sounded Québécois when she would say pis (and use fucking to mean very instead of other French words like vachement).

More on faque and pis here.

Ici often becomes icitte here. And it doesn't just fait froid here, il fait frette. My bass teacher often tells me something is pas pire instead of pas mal (he also says things like "Ça va être osti le fun à jouer!").

Gueule becomes yeule as in ta yeule! *Note: Be careful, if you look up (ferme) ta gueule! or ta yueule! or ferme-la! you'll often see it translated as just shut up. While shut up isn't exactly polite in English, the former expressions in French seem to be considered much stronger and would be closer to shut the fuck up in terms of strength/offensiveness (I'm pretty sure a kid would get slapped across the face or would get a similar strong non-physical equivalent response in punishment if they said it to an adult. One super bratty kid I had in one of my classes when I was an English language assistant tried to get me to say it out of ignorance but I already knew what it meant).

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(boé is bois spelled in a way that better represents a strong Québécois accent)

While some anglicisms are deliberately chased out in Quebec, many more seem to invade. One is the verb checker as in check-moi ça or je vais checker ça meaning to check, check out, verify, etc.

I first learned the word pogner/pogné(e) when I was in my friend's car which had gotten stuck in some ice (ou bien, son char était pogné dans la glace). It apparently has a lot of colloquial meaning described here: pogner.

Some words change gender in Quebec French and apparently the changing genders comes from popular usage. I've heard that vidéo is often masculine here. A quick article I found that talks about the phenomenon is here: Caprices des genres.

Finally, there are a couple typographical differences in Quebec French that I had to be careful to observe when editing my resume. While accents are often left off of capital letters in France, they are not optional here. And the extra space the French use with question marks and exclamation points are eliminated here. They do use them with colons, though. A table with typographical rules and punctuation in Quebec can be found here.

The accents range a lot in degrees of strength. When you hear the very tight/monotone vowels of the French community on the Plateau it sticks out a lot here. I usually don't have a lot of trouble understanding and communicating except with maybe some very animated conversations in bars between Québécois regulars.

There's lots more which I'm sure I'll discover with time.
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Re: sctroyenne: French, Irish, Spanish (new beginnings?)

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:23 pm

You have the substantial makings here and in your other fascinating lettres de mon Montreal for a good book on how to survive in quebeçois. Thank you.
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Re: sctroyenne: French, Irish, Spanish (new beginnings?)

Postby Robierre » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:51 pm

Bienvenue sounds so funny. Are you going to use it? :mrgreen:
But then again, in Switzerland they have service [sɛʁ.vis] for je vous en prie.
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Re: sctroyenne: French, Irish, Spanish (new beginnings?)

Postby Elenia » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:41 pm

I actually heard 'bonne fin de journée' quite often in France. For context, that was when I lived in Tours in the Loire valley. I haven't really visited elsewhere in France, so I can't say if that's a regional quirk.
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