I'm a logger

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drmweaver2
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Re: I'm a logger

Postby drmweaver2 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:42 pm

Elenia wrote:I procrastinate on things I really want or need to do because if I don't start it, I won't realise that it's hard and if I don't try at it, then I won't fail (or, if I do the thing, but don't try, then I can blame my failure on that, not myself). Of course, the 'logic' behind this isn't so much lacking as it is non-existent.
Hey! How did you manage to crawl inside my brain (assuming I have one) and manage to pull out that thought?!? I only repeat it every morning (um, afternoon and evening too, sometimes) :oops: :lol: :roll: :o :| :mrgreen: :)
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Re: I'm a logger

Postby eido » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:58 am

Elenia wrote:That's not necessarily true. It can be the opposite. I procrastinate on things I really want or need to do because if I don't start it, I won't realise that it's hard and if I don't try at it, then I won't fail (or, if I do the thing, but don't try, then I can blame my failure on that, not myself). Of course, the 'logic' behind this isn't so much lacking as it is non-existent. But it is what it is, and realising that makes it a little bit easier to push myself forward and just Do The Thing to the best of my ability.

What you will read next is relevant: I'm into self-help, so I'm often Googling things that I should probably just look to myself for, like making basic decisions. "Should I drop out of college?" "How do I not give up on things?" That kind of stuff. I'm not a critical thinker. I'm dumber than a rock. So when I see a view that seems to be right based on a number of logical evaluations of it, like what I wrote in the post you responded to, I try to make it my new view. I don't think about the view much other than other people's thoughts on it, because it's like they thought for me. So if my reasoning was erroneous, it's because they were, and I'm a dolt for believing them. I don't even like doing the thing to the best of my ability because I see things in black and white - either I did my best and even exceeded expectations, or I failed and it's not worth commenting about. There is no "failure helps you learn" here.
DaveAgain wrote:She went to Korea recently (having previously lived there in the past), after saying something on twitter about some K-pop star she was apparently hounded online by countless outraged fans.

BE CAREFUL EIDO

Fans of all nationalities can be bad. I mostly have experience with American ones, who are the most vocal because they speak English and because they're... American? I'm not worried about this girl so much because I think what I said really bothered her - she hasn't responded to me in two weeks or however long it's been. I mentioned this person she really liked, but who also died almost a year ago. It's a weird subject since no one ever (the majority of the public) knows a celebrity intimately. But even now people are commenting on the videos of the group he used to belong to, saying "RIP" and other vapid comments when most people have moved on, including the group, or so it seems (they would have to appear so because it would look bad otherwise). Some people cried their eyes out at his death and were mentioning how much effect he had on their lives, which I found odd since I and most other people only appreciated him for his voice or occasional political comments. So my comments, which tried to analyze his death and the culture that may have led to it, in a pretty objective fashion, must have set her off. She had told me something like, "I'll follow him for the rest of my life." Weird, since he's dead. It's this strange commitment that scares me. The majority of k-pop fans can't speak Korean, so what deep connection can they have to the stars? If someone wishes to explain politely, please do so.

Anyway, I'm learning some useful expressions in the course, but the level of understanding of English of the course instructor makes me concerned that I'm not learning language that's entirely correct, or at least language that matches up to the English well. It's a good concept, that of the course, but this keeps nagging me. I mentioned how the instructor was a bit hostile. For all the fancy graphics and good mics, I'm worried I got kind of ripped off. Hmm. I guess I'll know that when I've talked to native speakers. Otherwise I don't know how to prove it. And I can't think of any other resource to learn this language that would hold my attention, at least for this stage.
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Re: I'm a logger

Postby eido » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:56 am

Sorry if I ranted too much in my last post! I'm trying to develop my opinions on topics by thinking about why I have that opinion. I heard that's a good thing.

I continue to study the course. 86% of the way through. This is only the first course, though.

I have a couple language partners, but with this particular language once you start a relationship in English it's hard to switch over to the target language. Or so I've heard. I'm intimidated, and afraid to try out my fledgling skills. I want a B1 by the end of next year so I can chat like I can in Spanish, but that seems so far off.
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Re: I'm a logger

Postby eido » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:57 pm

I like to browse the logs at the back of the forum to see who abandoned what. There's a lot of people who abandon their East Asian language missions, I notice. I don't want to be one of those people, purely just not to be one of those people. But I found this bit by one of our resident language experts and I thought I'd quote it here.

The Iguana wrote:One of the things I see often among beginning learners is the need for material that is "interesting". I agree that this is important, but I don't let it rule my language-learning in the beginning stages. In the beginning stages of training listening in Portuguese, I sought out comprehensible material- audio with a transcript and an English translation was helpful at first. Being "bored" also depends on how you look at a task, in my experience. I can put up with anything for ten or fifteen minutes, anything- especially if I know that it will take me where I want to be. I think that is something that comes with being an experienced language-learner. I can see the benefit, whereas a beginner just sees- boring. Larger languages have a more wider variety of materials from which to choose. Lesser learned languages, and Portuguese is one of them, have fewer things available from which to choose. My philosophy is by any means necessary to learn the language and I keep my eyes on that prize. A lot of learning a language is repetition, either through an srs system, natural use of the language, or a combination of both. There's no getting around it. I knew Pimsleur would help me. I kept doing it and finished it. It did help me. Was it thrilling and exciting, no, absolutely not, but it was a component to what I needed to learn. That was my satisfaction.

I'm definitely guilty of trying to find "interesting" things. I think this is because I'm excited to understand more advanced content than what's given to learners, like culture bits I may have no use for because they're not practical at the time. I think what I need to do is find what makes me excited then. I think that's classes, because I like showing the teacher (even if it's a pre-recorded, asynchronous class) I can do good. I'm at the stage where I still love my new target language, so I'm ready to try anything to get it - learning this language - to work. With Spanish I'm ready to enjoy, but I'm not at the level where I can do so yet. The other day someone asked me what I'm going to college for, and I said Spanish. I want to be a Spanish teacher. "So you must be good at Spanish then," she said. I said, "No, not yet. But I hope to be." And in an unfortunate situation, where my Hispanic buddies are having to learn English quickly and abandon their native Spanish, I've had to provide translations to Spanish of the words they forgot. But they've told me they don't want me to speak to them in that language, and I've gotten childishly downhearted, so I said the other day, "Why are you asking me what that word means?" Apparently they think me - or maybe everyone, funnily - can speak Spanish around them. I want to say that I can speak Spanish fluently, but more than that, well. But I don't want it as much as @iguanamon probably did. So I feel like a fraud.

Other than that, I've been bouncing around beginner resources, and I have more of an attitude of completion about me than I did before. I want to get the levels done prescribed by the course providers. So far I have an app and two courses, one paid. I'm learning the same things over and over again, a lot of which is easy to understand. When I get to the harder stuff I'm sure my eagerness will go down, but I don't think much. I like seeing check marks and taking quizzes and doing well, even if it's just by myself. The trouble is getting all the passive knowledge from the class into active memory to use in conversation, or at least writing practice. I have a few phrases perfectly memorized, deeply ingrained in my brain, albeit with wonky pronunciation.

Speaking of that. I know it's been discussed that having native-like pronunciation isn't a goal for all people, but with me for now it seems to be an obsession, at least in daydreams. I hope to make it a reality. I know about FSI and DLI, and I think I figured out how to use them for Spanish, but not for my new language. Everything's been romanized and written out later in the native script by hand (although quite neatly). I can't read the romanization at all, so it makes it hard to study the dialogues.

Those of you reading this with incredible pronunciation skills, can you link me to the best threads on the forum where you might have detailed your process? Maybe specific posts?

And for fun I took the quiz for Spanish from the site linked in another forumer's log, and got this:
17minuteresult.PNG
17minuteresult.PNG (16.85 KiB) Viewed 469 times

B2! Ha. I wish. (It actually made me feel pretty good, but then I remembered.)
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Re: I'm a logger

Postby Jaleel10 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:59 am

eido wrote:Those of you reading this with incredible pronunciation skills, can you link me to the best threads on the forum where you might have detailed your process? Maybe specific posts?



Well I don't have incredible pronunciation skills, but it's not that bad. What I do is, while I watch my favourite youtubers, I try to imitate their intonation, facial expressions and body language. It's not a task that I plan, I just do it in the spur of the moment when I see a phrase I like. Like this clip from an Auronplay video. I will imitate the hand movements, the way enunciates and places emphasis on certain words, the way his voice rises and falls. Very fun stuff but it does make you look crazy as I provide lots of entertainment for my family members :lol: I began doing this because someone said my prosody and intonation sounded off and I agreed with them, I don't have the 'swagger' in my voice that Spanish speakers have.

Then there is also this:

MattNeilsen wrote:I was just reading an old thread today about how to improve pronunciation. The method was described by a guy named Olle Kjellin - you can read the PDF here. Essentially, it's using Audacity to chop up a small set of sentences and then chorusing them to the point of obliteration :)

He makes an interesting point, however, that learners should be more focused on "prosody-acquisition" than "pronunciation-acquisition". To be honest, I don't know if it's relevant at your current level, but I figured I'd link it in case it's helpful.


I myself will try my hand at this, but obviously at the end-ish of my active studies because speaking is not that important at the moment

I'm definitely guilty of trying to find "interesting" things. I think this is because I'm excited to understand more advanced content than what's given to learners, like culture bits I may have no use for because they're not practical at the time.


I frequently fell into the same trap. You know me, I am the king of finding interesting things xD. At least I can learn from many of you guys to know when I am doing something that is hurting my progress.

Good luck with whatever you are planning for your new language! Oh and I took the same test thingy and you have bested me yet again!
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Re: I'm a logger

Postby eido » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:51 am

Jaleel10 wrote:Well I don't have incredible pronunciation skills, but it's not that bad. What I do is, while I watch my favourite youtubers, I try to imitate their intonation, facial expressions and body language. It's not a task that I plan, I just do it in the spur of the moment when I see a phrase I like. Like this clip from an Auronplay video. I will imitate the hand movements, the way enunciates and places emphasis on certain words, the way his voice rises and falls. Very fun stuff but it does make you look crazy as I provide lots of entertainment for my family members :lol: I began doing this because someone said my prosody and intonation sounded off and I agreed with them, I don't have the 'swagger' in my voice that Spanish speakers have.

Then there is also this:

I myself will try my hand at this, but obviously at the end-ish of my active studies because speaking is not that important at the moment.

I like doing that if it's an interesting bit. If I can find maybe a cartoon to shadow or something, that would be good. Though it's not pure because it's acted. Learning prosody is one of my favorite parts of language learning, because I, like Kjellin, think that that goes a long way into making you sound native. Thanks for the idea! By the way, I've signed up for the One Month Speaking Challenge for November as well, for Spanish. Let's see if I make good on that.

I don't think I can keep my "secret" any longer. No doubt most of you have seen my post about what I'm learning, either in the Groups section of the forum or on that other thread about associations. I'm learning Korean again! I have renewed vigor. I want to know it well. The average learning time for getting to C2 or TOPIK 6 is 5-6 years. I think I'm ready to dedicate that.

Current challenges are pronunciation and grammar. Listening is okay, since I've listened to the same music over and over without really caring if I get the pronunciation right, so I make approximations and I often get them right if I can hear them. Passive knowledge is better at this stage. I make stupid, stupid mistakes with my language partners.

I'm using CUK's language program to get to B1 grammar level. I'm halfway done with the first of four levels, and almost done with the first of four courses in the Core Korean series on Udemy. I'm progressing through Lingodeer as well and have Clare You's books as well as the Grammar in Use books for beginners and intermediates. I'm hoping pounding everything in through multiple sources will make it stick.

Right now I'm very nervous to talk to Koreans, since our cultures are so different. I'm probably loud and annoying to them, but I can't know since I know so little about them.

CUK's teacher for the beginning level is so awkward, it's painful to watch or hear sometimes. But I still listen because it's interesting.

But I am immensely confused about all the words for 'and' and the shades of nuance that aren't explained. So the language is beautiful, but I'm just like :shock: I read an article about a man who was fluent (C2 I'll assume) in Korean and he said he only knew 15% of the language. I can believe it.

I'm out of my element. *squeaks* Help. :lol:
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Re: I'm a logger

Postby eido » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:47 pm

I'm on lesson 11-1 of 15-2 on CUK level 1. I also started reading through Sejong Hakdang's textbooks and picked out level 2 as the appropriate one for me to use. I read through about thirty pages of it and reviewed some of the same grammar I learned in the CUK course. The SH book is meant for classroom study, but it has good sentence generating exercises and reading passages to look through.

I still wish there were more comprehensive resources out there, but maybe I haven't reviewed all the textbooks thoroughly enough. Some have reviewed the CUK course negatively, and I'd say it's not as good as it could be for its intent. It introduces vocabulary, some unnecessary for everyday life, and some that's never used again in the series.

Hopefully, though, going at it through multiple sources will help expose me to the necessary words. So far it's worked a little.
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Re: I'm a logger

Postby eido » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:44 pm

I'm almost done with level 1 of CUK. One or two more lessons to go. I haven't used Core Korean in a while, but I'll probably review it after I finish up this CUK level.

I bought $100 in italki credits and signed up for a trial lesson with a Korean teacher, but I'm so afraid. What will happen during that class? If it was Spanish I'd still be afraid, but not as much. At least I can form a sentence in Spanish relatively easily. With Korean I only have a few memorized and can't express myself even remotely naturally. My pronunciation is horrible, too. And she asked me what book I want to use - I have no idea how to plan my learning. How am I supposed to tell you what to do?

I also experienced a Korean being impressed with my minimal Korean ability, which makes me laugh just thinking about it. He said, "Wow, you can write a sentence in Korean!" when I said something very basic. It was such that I couldn't tell if he was being sarcastic or not, but maybe that's the point. Korean culture will take some getting used to.

I also attempted to write my first journal entry in Korean in a while, trying to remember what I learned in one of the online lessons. I couldn't remember shit, and it turned out badly. Again the corrector commented I was doing well, but I kind of led him into saying that by saying I wasn't prepared and was doing horribly, trying to get a compliment out of him. Though I didn't want one at the same time. I just wanted reassurance from his experience that it gets better, because he was a C1 Korean learner.

There are a lot of challenges. One that's remained ever since I took that first Coursera course is numbers. Numbers below 100 are fine if I've studied, but anything higher proves a challenge.

This language makes me feel dumb, which I suppose should be a welcome challenge for someone who is always thinking she's great. But plenty of other people in the Korean language-learning community seem to have no problem understanding it, so I feel behind, which drives me nuts.
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Re: I'm a logger

Postby eido » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:33 am

I took the Cervantes test. I've taken this once before, maybe a year ago. The listening test is pretty easy, as is the reading test. The whole test is pretty easy. Below is my result.
cervantesresult_1.PNG
cervantesresult_1.PNG (18.5 KiB) Viewed 249 times

I have one sample test I haven't taken, but do you all know of any others? I've taken pretty much all the ones out there. Obviously my speaking and writing leave much to be desired.

I've also finished level 1 of CUK. I tried listening to Assimil Korean, but the instructions and translations are in French so it's difficult to follow. I downloaded 50Languages "parallel audio" to work through. Maybe it'll give me a base to work with with regard to easier every day language. I'll review it here from an English speaker's perspective probably soon.
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Re: I'm a logger

Postby reineke » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:36 am

eido wrote:I took the Cervantes test. I've taken this once before, maybe a year ago. The listening test is pretty easy, as is the reading test. The whole test is pretty easy. Below is my result.
cervantesresult_1.PNG

I have one sample test I haven't taken, but do you all know of any others? I've taken pretty much all the ones out there. Obviously my speaking and writing leave much to be desired.


eido wrote:I took that Leipzig test again that I took the day I started this log, or around there, and my score went up 2%. Whoopee. :| So I know about 4,000 of the most common words (receptively) according to that test. That's a long way to 10,000.


No 6WC for you!

The Leipzig test was not about the 10,000 most common words. You should try the active test.

Online Diagnostic Assessment (ODA) System http://oda.dliflc.edu

TELC

"Mock Examinations are available as free downloads at http://www.telc.net"
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