Ani's 2018 Log

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smallwhite
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby smallwhite » Sun May 20, 2018 8:34 am

Ani wrote:I look forward to any recommendations although I'm worried you're going to say "French isn't very different from English so you should have gotten this by now" :)

I don't get the connection (the "so") but I do agree with both clauses individually. The second clause because, for example,:

Ani wrote:
smallwhite wrote:
Ani wrote:I could use more study of the type of grammar that covers "verb tense used in x type of expression".

Like what, for example?

1) après que + futur antérieur vs. avant que + ne + subjonctif

The first one is taught on page 153 of Schaum's Italian grammar and the second one page 162. One can easily do 5 pages of Schaum's a day and reach pages 153 and 162 on days 31 and 33. (Not implying I recommend doing Schaum's but it is an option).

Ani wrote:I look forward to any recommendations...

Again, not recommending, but I've been meaning to ask you: how did you find A Comprehensive French Grammar? You probably didn't use it much, but how did you find it when you did use it?

Ani wrote:I look forward to any recommendations...

This time recommending. Decide on a grammar syllabus, and cover it. But you homeschool, ie. teach, so you must know this better than I do.
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby MamaPata » Sun May 20, 2018 4:20 pm

smallwhite wrote:
Ani wrote:
smallwhite wrote:
Ani wrote:I could use more study of the type of grammar that covers "verb tense used in x type of expression".

Like what, for example?

1) après que + futur antérieur vs. avant que + ne + subjonctif

The first one is taught on page 153 of Schaum's Italian grammar and the second one page 162. One can easily do 5 pages of Schaum's a day and reach pages 153 and 162 on days 31 and 33. (Not implying I recommend doing Schaum's but it is an option).


I actually have a real problem with this as an example that people should be at a particular point or able to do something. (I also have a real problem with anyone telling someone else that they should be further advanced than they are, but we'll put that aside). Just because you've studied something doesn't mean you know it. Particularly on what, two pages of exercises? Equally, there is loads of grammar stuff that, give me an exercise and I can bang it out with no mistakes. Can I always do it in speech or writing? No. In my experience, that's true of most people. Knowing something in principle doesn't mean you always use it correctly.
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby smallwhite » Sun May 20, 2018 4:32 pm

I think it's within Ani's ability. You can think otherwise!
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby Ani » Sun May 20, 2018 7:40 pm

smallwhite wrote:
The first one is taught on page 153 of Schaum's Italian grammar and the second one page 162. One can easily do 5 pages of Schaum's a day and reach pages 153 and 162 on days 31 and 33. (Not implying I recommend doing Schaum's but it is an option).

Again, not recommending, but I've been meaning to ask you: how did you find A Comprehensive French Grammar? You probably didn't use it much, but how did you find it when you did use it?

Ani wrote:I look forward to any recommendations...

This time recommending. Decide on a grammar syllabus, and cover it. But you homeschool, ie. teach, so you must know this better than I do.


Well.. yes. :)
I've definitely seen 95ish % of what is covered in most grammar resources. The problem, as far as I can self diagnose, is that I only apply general curiosity to grammar study and I often don't assess or be certain of getting enough practice to have real consistency or accuracy. I take a big hit from my type B personality here. While I imagine flawless French production, I'm fairly laid back about the exact route & timeline. That is, until there is some big crisis or frustration and I'm motivated to actually fix things again. I've definitely worked with the idea that looking things over & doing some exercises here and there will make things stick. A lot of the time it works, but not for a certain percentage. You know -- it took me 30+ years to work out it's vs its (hey thanks to the long discussion, I haven't forgotten!)

I really like A Comprehensive French Grammar. I was working on it right up to the hour before I went into labor lol. I really should have scheduled it to complete it before William was born because I haven't had hands to study paper things in the last year. I really over complicated my use of it by writing out so many examples & their translations in a notebook side by side so that I could use it like grammar translation, covering one half and producing the other. Would have been lovely and I'm sure very helpful to have the book internalised to that level, but I would have been better off just reading it like a novel on first pass I think.

Decide on a syllabus and cover it. Ha. True. :) There is an obvious conflict here between French as a hobby and French as a goal. In the last few years I have spent exponentially more time doing stuff in French than actually studying to improve. I guess I need to refocus.

MamaPata wrote:
I actually have a real problem with this as an example that people should be at a particular point or able to do something. (I also have a real problem with anyone telling someone else that they should be further advanced than they are, but we'll put that aside). Just because you've studied something doesn't mean you know it. Particularly on what, two pages of exercises? Equally, there is loads of grammar stuff that, give me an exercise and I can bang it out with no mistakes. Can I always do it in speech or writing? No. In my experience, that's true of most people. Knowing something in principle doesn't mean you always use it correctly.


Yeah application is definitely hard for me. I basically rely on memorizing lots of examples and when I'm trying to recall, I iterate through for something that applies. I really don't know how to use grammar as a recipe -- here is such and such construction, so this word takes this case.
It does make me think there is some other secret sauce for getting native like writing. Learning or over learning grammar is just one piece I can identify. Hopefully as I improve, I can glean all the bits and pieces I need.

smallwhite wrote:I think it's within Ani's ability. You can think otherwise!


Haha. :) Appreciate the confidence and the high expectations too.. when life doesn't match the ideals you hold for yourself, the only way to get there is by raising your standards.
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby smallwhite » Mon May 21, 2018 5:17 am

Ani wrote:I only apply general curiosity to grammar study...
There is an obvious conflict here between French as a hobby and French as a goal...

That's what you say, but you do more grammar work that most members here, probably more than me as well.

> A Comprehensive French Grammar... writing out so many examples & their translations in a notebook side by side...
> Kwiqiq... I took approx. 135 quizzes in 2 days...
> I also read explanations why it's so or so on wordreference, quora, and other sites...
> French-off...
> [having at least 2 levels of Grammaire, husband thinking you were doing the kids' homework...]

Ani wrote:Decide on a syllabus and cover it. Ha. True. :) There is an obvious conflict here between French as a hobby and French as a goal.

You've been studying grammar from here, from there, from everywhere, spending lots of time only to have covered 95% of what you think you should know, ie. your goal, your syllabus. Eg. you said you could use more study of après & avant, so they effectively form part of your goal/syllabus.

Your goal/syllabus is not super-ambitious. Après & avant are just ~B2 stuff that are covered in the first romance grammar I looked (Schaum's). It's not something obscure that takes years of using native material only to encounter once.

So I recommend picking a syllabus (say, Schaum's or Comprehensive or CLE, etc.) and covering it. Hop around it as you please - I have 4 bookmarks in my Italian grammar and 3 in my Turkish grammar - but (1) aim to eventually cover the whole book/syllabus, and (2) spend more time hopping within the syllabus than outside of it.

Hopping within your syllabus will take less time than hopping all over the place. Hopping within your syllabus will give you higher chance of covering your syllabus 100%.

I'm not asking a non-grammar person to study more grammar. I'm recommending a way for you to spend less time studying grammar.
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby Ani » Mon May 21, 2018 6:38 am

smallwhite wrote:
Ani wrote:There is an obvious conflict here between French as a hobby and French as a goal.

That's what you say, but you do more grammar work that most members here, probably more than me as well.

> A Comprehensive French Grammar... writing out so many examples & their translations in a notebook side by side...
> Kwiqiq... I took approx. 135 quizzes in 2 days...
> I also read explanations why it's so or so on wordreference, quora, and other sites...
> French-off...
> [having at least 2 levels of Grammaire, husband thinking you were doing the kids' homework...]

Ani wrote:Decide on a syllabus and cover it. Ha. True. :) There is an obvious conflict here between French as a hobby and French as a goal.

You've been studying grammar from here, from there, from everywhere, spending lots of time only to have covered 95% of what you think you should know, aka your goal, aka your syllabus. Eg. you said you could use more study of après & avant, so they effectively form part of your goal/syllabus.

Your goal/syllabus is not super-ambitious. Après & avant are just ~B2 stuff that are covered in the first romance grammar I looked (Schaum's). It's not something obscure that takes years of using native material only to encounter once.

So I suggest picking a syllabus (say, Schaum's or Comprehensive or CLE, etc.) and covering it. Hop around it as you please - I have 4 bookmarks in my Italian grammar and 3 in my Turkish grammar - but (1) aim to eventually cover the whole book/syllabus, and (2) spend more time hopping within the syllabus than outside of it.

Hopping within your syllabus will take less time than hopping all over the place. Hopping within your syllabus will give you higher chance of covering your syllabus 100%.

I'm not asking a non-grammar person to study more grammar. I'm suggesting a way for you to spend less time studying grammar.



I might make it look like I study a bunch of grammar, but.. like the kwiziq bursts -- a week at the beginning of my membership, and 2-3 days at the end is all the grammar I did in the last calendar year I believe. Maybe 15 hours? Not sure 15 hours a year would be more than most but if it is evidently I learn more slowly.
I'm not sure when the other quotes are from -- I had a grammar run when I was pregnant with William near the end which is when I was using Comprehensive French Grammar. I meant "so many notes" relative to the time I had. I just checked the notebook and it's 10 pages in total-- Baby's 12 months old now, and I think my last sustained run with Grammaire Progressive was.. summer of 2016? Although I dipped into it again at some point.
And the French-off didn't happen but would be very interesting :)

Most of my study time is very low quantity/quality if it requires sitting at a desk with paper and pen. 15-20 minutes with a pen would be great success for the day. When I'm reading & watching, most of the time I'm barely aware of the language and only notice the occasional problem.

Evidently I see this grammar repeatedly, and I can usually produce it, but once I start writing is when I wonder if I've been saying it wrong all along and second guess myself. Right now it is fresh because I just did a 15 hour review, but 2-3 months? Or any topics I didn't review? Even m/f or plural adjective changes.. is it cloux or clous? I don't use it therefore I've forgotten it.

Anyway -- I'm not sure I see the help in skipping around within one syllabus vs. just doing one straight through. I have no real urgency for one topic over another, unless I am writing and need it immediately. Mauger seems as good as any (maybe better, bit I can't say for sure), uses IPA, and has the benefit of moving more quickly than most. I think maybe I just need to not abandon it, even if I need to take a break again from actively studying.
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby smallwhite » Mon May 21, 2018 7:36 am

> I'm not sure when the other quotes are from

The first four quotes were from the last 3 or 4 pages of this thread. The last "quote" which I wrote in my own words was from my memory of this post - "My DH looked over at me today and asked if I was doing the children's school work lol... I did 10 out of the 60 lessons today". I noticed just now that you finished that workbook. I've never finished any workbook.


> I might make it look like I study a bunch of grammar, but...

I was recommending a way to cover more of the grammar you desire to learn in less time - by deciding on a syllabus and covering it. Just like writing up a shopping list before going to the supermarket. It should work whether you spend 300 hours or 3 hours a year on French grammar, or whether you have quality study time or not. But it's okay if you don't prefer to cover things better, if you don't think having a list would make things easier, or if you prefer the excitement of learning random things every day, or you simply don't like the sound of the idea.


> I'm not sure I see the help in skipping around within one syllabus vs. just doing one straight through.

By "hop around it as you please" I mean hop as you please and don't hop if you don't please.
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby Ani » Tue May 22, 2018 6:43 am

smallwhite wrote: But it's okay if you don't prefer to cover things better, if you don't think having a list would make things easier, or if you prefer the excitement of learning random things every day, or you simply don't like the sound of the idea.


:lol: I know you write these posts because you have my best interests at heart but man sometimes they are harsh :) I promise from here on out not to waste any time, skip around, double back when I should push forward, or operate without a list of priorities. I guess we all know that I could have done better, but didn't. So I'll just have to be more careful in the future that what I am spending my time on matches my goals and that I stick with it long enough to see the results.


====

Today really sucked. Like.. pack it up and move to Mexico level of suckage. Nothing is actually wrong in my life, just kids are always terrible when they are detoxing from a week of yay-mom-is-sick-we-get-extra-movies-and-video-games. Now that they have to do *all* their school work in one day (yup, a whole day's worth of work in just one day, can you believe it?) AND play outside for the rest of the day, basically everyone feels like having one tantrum after another. Not many people understand what it looks like when *5* kids have simultaneous tantrums. (ok maybe just 4 of them) Tomorrow will be light years better I am sure.

I'm carefully sticking to Mauger in French. Just learning the IPA. I made it to lesson 6 and I think I'm getting a good read on it now. I figured out how to match sounds, I'm no longer surprised by various symbols, but I'm not quite predicting correctly yet so I still have some weakness. I'm sure I'll be ok in a few more lessons.

Icelandic, I worked on Icelandic Online. I'm on Unit 4 Lesson 2 of the Survival course. Should be able to finish this week which will be great. Then there is IO 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5 + a few supplemental courses that seem to be by topic. Also, had a little chat with Morgana & Soffia over in Morgana's log and ended up buying 2 audio books in Icelandic, 1 kindle book, & one hard cover via AmazonUS, with the intention to buy another audio book after the hardcover book arrives. I don't know what I'm thinking.. all these books in a language I can't read.. I guess I'm thinking "Super Challenge material".

Russian, only Drops app today.

Additionally, I was talking to my son about the GlyphStudy group that was posted (over in Study Groups now) and he was super interested. So.. now we're doing that as part of his history curriculum. I'm not sure he can keep up or that he'll have the interest to stick it out for 2.5 years, but we can switch to audit only if it starts to be a problem. I have a bunch of other things to say about him & languages. I should go dig up the homeschool thread....
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby Soffía » Tue May 22, 2018 7:04 am

Ani wrote:Icelandic, I worked on Icelandic Online. I'm on Unit 4 Lesson 2 of the Survival course. Should be able to finish this week which will be great. Then there is IO 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5 + a few supplemental courses that seem to be by topic. Also, had a little chat with Morgana & Soffia over in Morgana's log and ended up buying 2 audio books in Icelandic, 1 kindle book, & one hard cover via AmazonUS, with the intention to buy another audio book after the hardcover book arrives. I don't know what I'm thinking.. all these books in a language I can't read.. I guess I'm thinking "Super Challenge material".


Hurrah! I'm not the only one who ambitiously pre-buys books! I own so many French books it isn't even funny, plus several Icelandic books that are still above my reading ability (*cough* Halldór Laxness *cough*). But there's something satisfying just having them around.

If you decide to read Sagan af bláa hnettinum, I may try to follow along in my Faroese edition (no audiobook there, sadly/luckily).
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby aaleks » Tue May 22, 2018 6:25 pm

Ani wrote:
Yeah application is definitely hard for me. I basically rely on memorizing lots of examples and when I'm trying to recall, I iterate through for something that applies. I really don't know how to use grammar as a recipe -- here is such and such construction, so this word takes this case.
It does make me think there is some other secret sauce for getting native like writing. Learning or over learning grammar is just one piece I can identify. Hopefully as I improve, I can glean all the bits and pieces I need.

Ani wrote:Most of my study time is very low quantity/quality if it requires sitting at a desk with paper and pen. 15-20 minutes with a pen would be great success for the day. When I'm reading & watching, most of the time I'm barely aware of the language and only notice the occasional problem.

Evidently I see this grammar repeatedly, and I can usually produce it, but once I start writing is when I wonder if I've been saying it wrong all along and second guess myself. Right now it is fresh because I just did a 15 hour review, but 2-3 months? Or any topics I didn't review? Even m/f or plural adjective changes.. is it cloux or clous? I don't use it therefore I've forgotten it.


First off all I don't know any secret sauce for getting native like writing :) . This is just my experience and I'm definitely not an expert. The thing is I do not understand grammar the way it's written in grammar/textbooks. And honestly I can recall only a couple weekends (literally) when I was studying grammar in a kind of proper way aka sitting behind a desk and doing grammar exercises. That was about one and a half year ago when I tried to write in English the first time and found out that I need to learn some grammar because I was writing things like "I going" (without am, are, is), etc. I can't remember how much time I've spend on studying grammar that way but I'm afraid that it's hardly been more than a couple week in the past 6 years.

I think I've learned a lot more grammar/about grammar through input and noticing things. Probably if I had paid enough attention to what I read in regard to grammar since the beginning I would have known that I need to put "be" before "-ing" words in that context or that "have/has" goes after "would/could/should" in "would have been" etc. But all so-called phrasal verbs and the like, as well as irregular verbs: go/went/gone, do/did/done, etc. I learned from exposure.

If I were to do it all over again I would've worked only on the grammar topics I had not understood, and tried to fill the gaps like that one with "I going".

I'm not sure that my way of studying is really an effective one. (tbh I think it is not) Probably people who can learn grammar through textbook do the same a lot faster. So no, I do not recommend anything I just share my experience :)
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