Ani's 2018 Log

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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby Ani » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:28 am

I think I'm usually very good about the rules here and I'm not one to stir the pot.. but now I can't keep my mouth shut. :o
I don't want to derail the free and legal challenge thread so I'm going to post my mini commentary over here.

Here is my very problem with "free and legal" --

iguanamon wrote:Of course, if a learner had access to a public library with a large selection of TL books, films and series, then it would be a lot easier.


Of course it would.. and rich people often have this. They often live in nice areas with libraries that will order them all all sorts of things for free. Then there is the other 99% of the world who doesn't, but is no less deserving of access to information. Libraries are nothing more than government sponsored piracy, by our new definition. Piracy used to be things like copying off and selling bootleg movies out of the back of a van or from a creepy trench coat, but now it extends to educating yourself without paying for everything you set your eyes on. Many people will admire a beautiful library but few admit what a symbol it is of the haves and the have-nots. Do you live on the side of town where the government has carefully pirated all those movies and books for you? Or the side where you can't find more than a 20 year old encyclopedia in the non-fiction section so good luck with your hopes of an education.
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby rdearman » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:57 am

Ani wrote:Do you live on the side of town where the government has carefully pirated all those movies and books for you?

I want to set the record straight here as far as government piracy goes. In the UK at least there is something called Public Lending Right scheme that remunerates writers when books are borrowed from libraries. Authors get about £0.07 per loan as well as the price of the original books bought. It also remunerates musicians and film makers. As an author I am happy that my books have appeared in public libraries since it gives people an opportunity to read without having to pay. As a library user I'm very happy to pay taxes which support libraries.

I realise there are a lot of places where they don't have organised libraries, which is why I support the charity Book Aid International. Book Aid International is the UK’s leading international book donation and library development charity. Their vision is a world where everyone has access to the books that will enrich, improve and change their lives. Also there is the African Library Project who have opened over 2000 libraries in Africa.

In Asia there is the One Million Words Asia Literacy Organization which was established with the mission to finance, source, and supply new printed books, in local languages or in a second language as per demand at the time, with a word count in excess of 1,000,000 words.

Those are only a few of the charities who are trying to establish the tradition of libraries worldwide. There are many more: http://www.playingbythebook.net/125-lit ... charities/

So actually libraries (in the UK at least) support creators and publishers and promote literacy and education. Libraries aren't pirates but amazing public institutions which should be supported and encouraged.
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby iguanamon » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:25 pm

Ani wrote:Libraries are nothing more than government sponsored piracy, by our new definition.

In addition to rdearman's excellent explanation, I found this article that explains the situation from an American perspective. How Libraries Acquire Books (Because Most People, Including Digital Piracy Advocates, Don't Seem To Understand This)

Libraries are even more necessary now because it is getting increasingly harder and harder to pirate books and media. The golden age of digital piracy is over. Still, companies, with geo-blocking make it much harder than it should be (because of rights issues). I live in the USVI, a US Territory. I have HBO available on my cable system, but I can't get the HBO GO app, because, they won't let me because I don't live in the US.. zipcode and flag don't count. You get used to it. So... alternative means.

The thing about the FLC is it's a challenge. It's a challenge to do it free and legally in the first place. It's a challenge to limit one's self to less than optimal resources and yet another challenge to resist cheating with pirated or paid resources- because popular media can be easier, and more enjoyable. For most big languages there is certainly enough available online free and legally to do an FLC, but it's not necessarily what we would choose if we had our choice.

If you ever do decide to do an FLC, Haitian Creole is probably the easiest language for which to do an FLC. My resources in the HC Study Group are almost all free. You won't have to worry about being tempted to stray from free and legal in HC. There ain't no series, pirated, netflixed or in libraries anyway. You won't be able to pirate ebooks, because, well, there ain't none anyway. No audio-books to pirate either.

I can sympathize with your situation in Alaska since I, too, live far from the mainland US in the even lower population US Territory of the USVI. As we say here, "we have everything you need just not everything you want". One of my other favorite VI sayings is, "if you see something and you like it, buy it... if you really like it buy two of them". You never know here when an item may disappear from the shelves for months or permanently.
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby Ani » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:04 am

Rdearman & Iguanamon, tone is hard to read over the internet. My intention writing the below is "with smiles over beer". I know that my opinions on radical free access to information are the unpopular ones and that is not likely I'll change your opinions. Still, I've written some more. I have the highest respect for the both of you and I hope you can forgive me my imperfections :)

rdearman wrote:
Ani wrote:Do you live on the side of town where the government has carefully pirated all those movies and books for you?

I want to set the record straight here as far as government piracy goes. In the UK at least there is something called Public Lending Right scheme that remunerates writers when books are borrowed from libraries. Authors get about £0.07 per loan as well as the price of the original books bought. It also remunerates musicians and film makers. As an author I am happy that my books have appeared in public libraries since it gives people an opportunity to read without having to pay. As a library user I'm very happy to pay taxes which support libraries.
...
So actually libraries (in the UK at least) support creators and publishers and promote literacy and education. Libraries aren't pirates but amazing public institutions which should be supported and encouraged.


So I guess if 1000 people borrow a book, the author can go out to dinner at a mid priced restaurent to celebrate? :)

I'm not against libraries. If you see how I phrased this, I'm not bashing libraries but asserting that people who are looking for educational materials are not "pirates" either. The reality is just that many many people can't or don't have access -- or what they have access to is really low quality. Even people that pay taxes to support a library often work the wrong hours or live too rurally to be able use it. They are people who are trying to better themselves, not plunderers sailing the high seas. Personally I believe the social benefit of having more educated citizens far outweighs the potential loses to authors -- and whether there are really significant losses is sometimes debated because if you can't afford it or don't value it enough to buy it, you weren't going to buy it anyway.

iguanamon wrote:In addition to rdearman's excellent explanation, I found this article that explains the situation from an American perspective. How Libraries Acquire Books (Because Most People, Including Digital Piracy Advocates, Don't Seem To Understand This)

Holy biases, Batman...
I can't even site that article without violating our profanity policy..
That is *exactly* my point -- in reverse. Piracy shaming. "You don't need these materials, you're a greedy thief, and if you pirate books you have a sorry crappy life. Library patrons are good people. But also you already have access to everything you need because taxes, so stop being lazy and just use the library"

My mom was on the library board when I was little. I basically grew up in a library and I was one of the privileged few who didn't even have to worry about library fines. (My mom was insane about making sure we never took advantage of that privilege.. I think we returned a book late just once or twice ever). I know they can be great places for people. That doesn't make them accessible to everyone. No matter how hard the author asserts his position, it doesn't make library patrons good people who but tons of books, or "pirates" bad people who never pay for what they use (I spend more on books per year than most families spend on food but I still puffy heart love Library Genesis).

Globally, many of us believe that education is a basic human right. How that plays out gets everyone twisted up in a bunch. Divert thousands and millions of dollars from all of us in taxes for public schools and maybe universities ? Sure thing. Track down a 15 year old text book that you could neither afford nor find in print? Viscous pirate.

I know I'm exaggerating.. only slightly though. We already have massive global inequalities in access to education that adding another layer social baracades just really frustrates me.

Libraries are even more necessary now because it is getting increasingly harder and harder to pirate books and media. The golden age of digital piracy is over. Still, companies, with geo-blocking make it much harder than it should be (because of rights issues). I live in the USVI, a US Territory. I have HBO available on my cable system, but I can't get the HBO GO app, because, they won't let me because I don't live in the US.. zipcode and flag don't count. You get used to it. So... alternative means.
I get that... Again it's not the libraries, it's the information gap and our attitudes..

The thing about the FLC is it's a challenge. It's a challenge to do it free and legally in the first place. It's a challenge to limit one's self to less than optimal resources and yet another challenge to resist cheating with pirated or paid resources- because popular media can be easier, and more enjoyable. For most big languages there is certainly enough available online free and legally to do an FLC, but it's not necessarily what we would choose if we had our choice.

If you ever do decide to do an FLC, Haitian Creole is probably the easiest language for which to do an FLC. My resources in the HC Study Group are almost all free. You won't have to worry about being tempted to stray from free and legal in HC. There ain't no series, pirated, netflixed or in libraries anyway. You won't be able to pirate ebooks, because, well, there ain't none anyway. No audio-books to pirate either.

Different challenges for different people.. I'm really interested in HC, but I'd probably blow it in the first five minutes as an FLC by paying somebody for lessons :)
I can sympathize with your situation in Alaska since I, too, live far from the mainland US in the even lower population US Territory of the USVI. As we say here, "we have everything you need just not everything you want". One of my other favorite VI sayings is, "if you see something and you like it, buy it... if you really like it buy two of them". You never know here when an item may disappear from the shelves for months or permanently.


I think my life is downright urban compared to island life :)
But a lot of my pondering about "village problems" have had a really heavy weight in my changing opinion..
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby Cavesa » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:23 am

There are very few czech things I am proud of. Very few and the list is shortening every year unfortunately. But two definitely stand out.

Our system of basic arts schools: those schools offer music, drawing, theatre, and dance lessons for reasonable prices, thanks to being partially financed by the state or the towns. Yes, they are endangered now, because the teachers really get low wages, but they are awesome and we should do everything to keep them. I can't start to name all the advantages a child gets from learning to play an instrument or participate in a theatre play there, I would keep going for a very long post.

The second thing are our public libraries. We have the largest number of libraries per capita, as I've read somewhere. And they tend to be of good quality. Unfortunately, they are being closed sometimes, in smaller towns. That is a problem because smaller towns usually have older population, which is less likely to use the internet and ebooks (and piracy) to such an extent. The libraries are doing their best to provide people with high and low literature, non fiction, internet connection, cultural program, even music, arts (you can borrow a painting for a few months in Prague!). Sure, there are some limits to their functioning and some are not tied to funding. But I'd wish people all over the world to have such a network of libraries.

Without the libraries, or with insufficient offer in them, people have an easy choice. Either become pirates or ignorants. The luxury of the third choice "a happy customer of online services" is reserved to people in only a few countries.

Here in Prague, I am so spoiled I can complain about rather minor issues, such as the lack of science books in the Spanish Cervantes library, too few foreign books and outdate language courses in the Municipal Library, an extremely ugly studyroom at my faculty's library, and the bad selection of reference works in the readily displayed bookcases in the beautiful studyroom in the National Library https://www.nkp.cz/sluzby/dulezite-odka ... b-stud-dej
Ok, I have a legitimate complaint: the National Library closes at 10pm and there are only two night study rooms in Prague.

And of course the libraries pay to the authors. The problem are things like a recent demand for the libraries to pay much more for the copying machines. It doesn't matter what you copy, there is a presumption of guilt in the minds of a few huge private companies that basically demand taxes "in the name of the authors" and the state lets them. Really, either make the system more logical, human, and free market, or simply take it away from the private companies (90% is their profit) and let's give the culture taxes to the state. It is all bad enough in principle, but this one change was about to seriously damage our libraries before some last minute changes to the laws.

But I still agree the online access and digitalisation are necessary. It is important to get rid of the stupid geoblocking, and to improve the market with both educational media and entertainment. They need to be accessible both in the technical sense and financial. Not to cut the authors (they would actually profit, if people weren't forced to either pirate or give up on their works), but to streamline and not pay that much to the resellers.

I love paper books. But covering at least some of our needs with ebooks is a must, if we want every person on the planet to have access to education. I can see extremely clearly how much more difficult would getting the books I want be if i moved 150 km away, into the czech mountains. What about people living 500 km away from any bigger city? And we don't even have enough trees to cover all those needs (although we could print a lot more textbooks, if we cut the marketing leaflets out).

We need digital libraries/bookstores/streaming services. Accessible worldwide, comfortable enough to push the piracy aside (I am one of the pirate generation. We are no longer poor teenagers. But the services haven't realised it and simply don't offer enough.). With as little money as possible given to resellers (why should I pay twice as much for the exactly same dvd just because someone put it on a camion?), so that the authors have enough and the customers can pay.

My mom was on the library board when I was little. I basically grew up in a library and I was one of the privileged few who didn't even have to worry about library fines. (My mom was insane about making sure we never took advantage of that privilege.. I think we returned a book late just once or twice ever). I know they can be great places for people. That doesn't make them accessible to everyone. No matter how hard the author asserts his position, it doesn't make library patrons good people who but tons of books, or "pirates" bad people who never pay for what they use (I spend more on books per year than most families spend on food but I still puffy heart love Library Genesis).

Globally, many of us believe that education is a basic human right. How that plays out gets everyone twisted up in a bunch. Divert thousands and millions of dollars from all of us in taxes for public schools and maybe universities ? Sure thing. Track down a 15 year old text book that you could neither afford nor find in print? Viscous pirate.

I know I'm exaggerating.. only slightly though. We already have massive global inequalities in access to education that adding another layer social baracades just really frustrates me.

I wish I didn't have to worry about the library fines. Even if it meant someone was really torturing me to return the thing on time! :-D

Yes, I spend on books more than most people my age (including those with significantly larger income). But I am simply not allowed to buy lots of stuff I want. The choice is either being a pirate, or paying a lot of money and trouble and time for paper copies, or staying within the stupid narrow borders someone else had invented for me ("oh, the swedish books are too expensive for czechs" when I was almost waving my wallet around at the book fair. (and that was a huge reason to give up on Swedish) "people didn't buy French books much, so we got rid of them" "but you only had some kafka translations, Prague guides, and cookbooks, no wonder noone was buying that" "no, people wouldn't want other books either". or "but why do you want a foreign textbook, why don't you get a czech one?" "it sucks, it is outdated, and a torture to read" "but it's czech!")

And you are not exaggerating about tracking down a 15 year old text book!
I could name at least four examples right now! Including such a piece of irony like an obligatory textbook (the only one on the planet covering a weirdly composed subject) published by my university but without any reprint despite being impossible to buy a new or a second hand copy, just two or three copies being in the library (and one of those only for consultation in there), and still being obligatory for 150 people a year (all at the same time). The only available option was a horrible set of photos of the pages, which was very dark when printed out. Such a pleasure to hear "yes, it is horrible that the students download pirated pdfs, where are the publishers and authors supposed to get money for new books?" and "no, we are sorry, we get asked about this book a lot but we do not plan to print it again." :-D

I can sympathize with your situation in Alaska since I, too, live far from the mainland US in the even lower population US Territory of the USVI. As we say here, "we have everything you need just not everything you want". One of my other favorite VI sayings is, "if you see something and you like it, buy it... if you really like it buy two of them". You never know here when an item may disappear from the shelves for months or permanently.

Aaaand people in many countries wonder why there is so much urbanisation, why fewer and fewer people want to live in small towns and villages. :-D :-D And why it is usually the more educated part of the population leaving, leaving the rest to struggle. The internet is the cure to many of the common problems, if only the society finally accepts that people simply don't want to settle for the level of culture "my neighbour plays the violin a bit and my local library has all the 70's bestsellers" anymore. If only we allow the market to make life more pleasant far away from the city. Because why should people settle for "you have everything you need", when they can have "everything they want" much more easily a hundred km (or a few hundred km) away.

Truth be told, even I would be more inclined to stay in the country I have very little in common with, if I could have the real culture easily and comfortably available online without being called a thief. And I am not the only one. It is definitely not just about the money. I would buy what I want, if I was allowed to.

As you were sharing about your mom and books, Ani, I'll add an anecdote of mine. I was 16 when my mom asked "but why do you spend so much in second hand bookstores, why don't you buy some new clothes instead!" :-D so I am definitely not pirating because I wouldn't be willing to buy my culture and education.
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby Peluche » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:28 pm

Ani wrote:Track down a 15 year old text book that you could neither afford nor find in print? Viscous pirate.


That hit close. I wanted to get the audio for Hugo Portuguese. Out of print. I emailed the publishers twice, no response. Could not find it pirated. Finally after a couple of *years* of watching, found a used copy on amazon.co.uk which I snagged.
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby eido » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:58 pm

I don't mean to make this fiery, but for some reason I don't understand how libraries are pirating books. Is it because they distribute books for free? What did I miss?
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby Systematiker » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:27 am

I’d just like to come in on the side of “let’s make education more, not less accessible to everyone.” I mean, I’m an author, but it’s the type of stuff I give away, I don’t care if you pay for it or not. And I can’t defend the rest of my position without doing politics and religion, so I’ll stop there, with just the remark that yeah, art should be valued and you shouldn’t have to have a side hustle just to create.

And also on the “I wish I’d gone to school with people like you instead of the people I did” bandwagon :lol: :lol:
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby Ani » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:10 am

Cavesa wrote:
As you were sharing about your mom and books, Ani, I'll add an anecdote of mine. I was 16 when my mom asked "but why do you spend so much in second hand bookstores, why don't you buy some new clothes instead!" :-D so I am definitely not pirating because I wouldn't be willing to buy my culture and education.


I love when you share about your part of the world. I don't even know which section/s to quote here.. I'm totally enamored with the idea of borrowing a painting from a library! That's wild.

I'd pick education over clothing any day. :)

eido wrote:I don't mean to make this fiery, but for some reason I don't understand how libraries are pirating books. Is it because they distribute books for free? What did I miss?


Ehh.. if you missed it you missed it :) I'm quite through ranting.

Systematiker wrote:I’d just like to come in on the side of “let’s make education more, not less accessible to everyone.” I mean, I’m an author, but it’s the type of stuff I give away, I don’t care if you pay for it or not. And I can’t defend the rest of my position without doing politics and religion, so I’ll stop there, with just the remark that yeah, art should be valued and you shouldn’t have to have a side hustle just to create.

And also on the “I wish I’d gone to school with people like you instead of the people I did” bandwagon :lol: :lol:


It's kind of a shame we didn't have a special school or something :).. Actually, when yours are old enough, there are great online classes/schools that fill that gap for homeschooling kids.

Art is wonderful, in (almost) all forms. I hope I didn't imply somewhere that I don't believe in supporting artists or creators. Local artists add amazing richness to an area and places like the Met, with "pay what you want" admission and their galleries online for study are a huge benefit to the world.
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Re: Ani's 2018 Log

Postby Systematiker » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:53 pm

Yeah, that wasn’t aimed at you or anything, that’s one of those anticipating-critique-of-position things. I just wanted to hint at what I’d say without saying it, like, how we should have radically free access to what’s created and radically free ability/opportunity to create. Probably skating the line here, again, I’ll stop.
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