An opera fan's log - French, German, Italian, etc

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
User avatar
Deinonysus
Brown Belt
Posts: 1222
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:06 pm
Location: MA, USA
Languages:  
• Native: English
• Advanced: French
• Intermediate: German,
   Spanish, Hebrew
• Beginner: Italian,
   Arabic
x 4635

Re: An opera fan's language log - working on French

Postby Deinonysus » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:47 am

Cavesa wrote:
Deinonysus wrote:...

Yes, getting used to singing the "wrong" r in French was not easy. Sometimes, I still mess up.


...

Even the operatic version of one's native language can be difficult to understand :-D

I'd like to share a link to one of my favourites right now: Julie Fuchs singing Despina from Mozart's Cosi fan tutte. I am learning this. I will never be this awesome, but I love it. I think this singer is the best at it (from all the youtube versions I have listened to), as she is clearly enjoying it. The others surely have great technique too, they are professionals after all, but this one makes it so alive and full of joy and humour that she really stands out.



I couldn't but notice there are significantly fewer mezzo pieces. Fortunately, some soprano ones are accessible to me, like this Mozart. I am much more drawn towards opera than the songs. I find the aria being part of a story fascinating. That is one of the main differences from playing an instrument. As for songs, I'd like to look into other genres too with my teacher, to not learn mistakes by doing something wrong all the time on my own with youtube :-) But learning to sing the classics is the base and I it is a dream come true to explore it. A dream I hadn't known about for a long time. I started rather late, but that is no problem. It is the same as with the languages. Of course spending hours a day on it from the early childhood will lead to the best results. But you can still learn a lot much later.

That's a great clip! I agree with your assessment, I love that she's actually acting. A lot of opera singers will just stand there with no emotion, even in a fully staged opera.

Mezzos/contraltos and sopranos will often steal material from each other, transposing as needed. My favorite version of the soprano aria "Casta Diva" is by contralto Marian Anderson:
2 x
/daɪ.nə.ˈnaɪ.səs/

User avatar
Neurotip
Green Belt
Posts: 332
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:02 pm
Location: London, UK
Languages: eng N; ita & fra B2+, ell & deu B2-, ísl B1 (spa & swe A2?)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9850
x 660

Re: An opera fan's language log - working on French

Postby Neurotip » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:36 am

Thanks for introducing me to John Duke - there's a lot of American song that I'm not familiar with at all. That particular song is practically a piano rhapsody with obbligato voice ;) and sounds as if it would be great fun to perform.

More seriously, Heyr Himna Smiður has genuinely made my day. Thank you. I will definitely be searching YouTube for Árstíðir later.

By the way, I forgot to say, since you mentioned Pelléas - that opera has been a touchstone for me since my teens. I grew up with the Maria Ewing / Le Roux / van Dam / Abbado recording. My memory told me the singers in this recording use guttural /r/s, either fricative or trill, but actually checking now it's a bit of a mixture and sometimes hard to tell. I think consonants that involve movement of the back or root of the tongue are pretty hard to sing elegantly as they tend to strongly colour the (end of the) preceding vowel which is not a desirable thing.
1 x
Corrections welcome here

User avatar
Josquin
Blue Belt
Posts: 646
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:38 pm
Location: Germany
Languages: German (native); English (advanced fluency); French (basic fluency); Italian, Swedish, Russian, Irish (intermediate); Dutch, Icelandic, Japanese, Portuguese, Scottish Gaelic (beginner); Latin, Ancient Greek, Biblical Hebrew, Sanskrit (reading only)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=737
x 1764

Re: An opera fan's language log - working on French

Postby Josquin » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:17 pm

Deinonysus wrote:Awesome, what's your favorite song in Winterreise? Mine is Das Wirthaus. I also started out as a baritone that got Shanghaied into singing tenor, although eventually it turned out that I was a low tenor after all.

I was going to ask you if you named yourself after Josquin des Prez, then I checked his Wikipedia article and your icon was right there, so that anwers that question! I do love early music, especially madrigals! I also love recorder music. I bought myself a baroque-style plastic alto recorder but never got around to learning to play it.

I'm reasonably familiar with Handel but had never heard of Dixit Dominus, and I'd never even heard of Buxtehude at all! I'll need to check them out.

I'm listening to your Stile Antico clip now; it's awesome! I'll definitely need to check out more of their stuff! I've honestly never seen a bad Tiny Desk Concert. Even T-Pain's was great.

Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau got away with singing tons of opera with more of a Lieder voice than an opera voice, so it's definitely doable.

Hey, my favourite song of the Winterreise is the first one, Gute Nacht. But I also like Der Leiermann, Auf dem Flusse, and Frühlingstraum. There are so many great songs in this cycle!

Yeah, I named myself after Josquin Desprez, but rather for the sound of his name than for some special affection for hime. I do think he was a good composer (I especially like his chansons Mille regretz and El grillo), but he's not my favourite. I prefer Brahms for romantic music and Tallis and Byrd for renaissance music.

I never got around learning the recorder, I started with the bassoon right away. I was pretty good, even played in some amateur orchestras and thought about studying at the conservatory, but when these dreams didn't come true I somehow lost interest. That's when I discovered I was much better at singing than I ever was at playing the bassoon. Also, I liked singing and practising to sing much better. I hated finger and tongue practice for technical passages on the bassoon! I was always better when lyrical melodies were required, so singing was much easier for me than playing an instrument. I also had a year or so of piano lessons, but I didn't get very far. I can still play Bach's Minuet in G, but thats about it.

Yeah, baritones being shanghaied for singing tenor seems to be quite a common phenomenon! ;) My voice teacher had been unsure about my voice type for a long time, but now it seems I'm more of a high baritone than a low tenor. I don't really have any problems singing tenor, other than using my head voice a lot, especially for high g's and a's, but I'm much more comfortable in the baritone register.

Buxtehude is probably best known as a mentor of young Johann Sebastian Bach. Bach even did some kind of pilgrimage in order to visit Buxtehude in his hometown of Lübeck. He learned a lot about organ playing from him, I think. Buxtehude is probably the best-known representative of the North German Organ School and has left some impressive toccatas and preludes, but he also composed for other instruments and for voices. His cantatas are still quite well-known in German church music.

I'm glad you like Stile Antico! They're really great. I love everything by them.

Also, thanks for comparing me to Fischer-Dieskau! ;) Well, we'll see where the journey will take me, but if I'll get good enough for solistic appearances, I'd probably rather sing oratories or, as I said, early music. I'm probably not extroverted enough for a life on the opera stage and I'm much more into church music than into opera anyway. My role model in this regard is Christian Gerhaher, who started as a lied singer and only later became an oratory and opera singer. He has a very special way of singing, but I love his voice and his musicianship. I also like Benjamin Appl, who mainly focuses on songs as well. He hasn't got the very best technique, but his voice is marvellous and he's still young.
1 x
Oró, sé do bheatha abhaile! Anois ar theacht an tsamhraidh.

User avatar
Deinonysus
Brown Belt
Posts: 1222
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:06 pm
Location: MA, USA
Languages:  
• Native: English
• Advanced: French
• Intermediate: German,
   Spanish, Hebrew
• Beginner: Italian,
   Arabic
x 4635

Re: An opera fan's language log - working on French

Postby Deinonysus » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:59 pm

Neurotip wrote:Thanks for introducing me to John Duke - there's a lot of American song that I'm not familiar with at all. That particular song is practically a piano rhapsody with obbligato voice ;) and sounds as if it would be great fun to perform.

More seriously, Heyr Himna Smiður has genuinely made my day. Thank you. I will definitely be searching YouTube for Árstíðir later.

By the way, I forgot to say, since you mentioned Pelléas - that opera has been a touchstone for me since my teens. I grew up with the Maria Ewing / Le Roux / van Dam / Abbado recording. My memory told me the singers in this recording use guttural /r/s, either fricative or trill, but actually checking now it's a bit of a mixture and sometimes hard to tell. I think consonants that involve movement of the back or root of the tongue are pretty hard to sing elegantly as they tend to strongly colour the (end of the) preceding vowel which is not a desirable thing.

Neat, I remember hearing about obbligatos (obbligati?) back in college but I'd forgotten exactly what they were.

The fricative /r/ is definitely very hard to sing in an operatic style. The uvular or tongue trills are much easier.

I'll have to check out that recording of Pelléas! My favorite is the 1942 Roger Désormière recording with Jacques Jansen and Irène Joachim. I don't think the whole album is on YouTube but here's a clip:


As a bonus, they tacked on some recordings of Débussy himself with Mary Garden, the original Mélisande. It's a couple of Mélodies plus one aria from Pélleas (it's the same as the one above).


Here's another of my favorite recordings of Jacques Jansen. The pieces were composed for a movie.
1 x
/daɪ.nə.ˈnaɪ.səs/

User avatar
Deinonysus
Brown Belt
Posts: 1222
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:06 pm
Location: MA, USA
Languages:  
• Native: English
• Advanced: French
• Intermediate: German,
   Spanish, Hebrew
• Beginner: Italian,
   Arabic
x 4635

Re: An opera fan's language log - working on French

Postby Deinonysus » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:06 pm

Josquin wrote:
Deinonysus wrote:...

Hey, my favourite song of the Winterreise is the first one, Gute Nacht. But I also like Der Leiermann, Auf dem Flusse, and Frühlingstraum. There are so many great songs in this cycle!

Yeah, I named myself after Josquin Desprez, but rather for the sound of his name than for some special affection for hime. I do think he was a good composer (I especially like his chansons Mille regretz and El grillo), but he's not my favourite. I prefer Brahms for romantic music and Tallis and Byrd for renaissance music.

I never got around learning the recorder, I started with the bassoon right away. I was pretty good, even played in some amateur orchestras and thought about studying at the conservatory, but when these dreams didn't come true I somehow lost interest. That's when I discovered I was much better at singing than I ever was at playing the bassoon. Also, I liked singing and practising to sing much better. I hated finger and tongue practice for technical passages on the bassoon! I was always better when lyrical melodies were required, so singing was much easier for me than playing an instrument. I also had a year or so of piano lessons, but I didn't get very far. I can still play Bach's Minuet in G, but thats about it.

Yeah, baritones being shanghaied for singing tenor seems to be quite a common phenomenon! ;) My voice teacher had been unsure about my voice type for a long time, but now it seems I'm more of a high baritone than a low tenor. I don't really have any problems singing tenor, other than using my head voice a lot, especially for high g's and a's, but I'm much more comfortable in the baritone register.

Buxtehude is probably best known as a mentor of young Johann Sebastian Bach. Bach even did some kind of pilgrimage in order to visit Buxtehude in his hometown of Lübeck. He learned a lot about organ playing from him, I think. Buxtehude is probably the best-known representative of the North German Organ School and has left some impressive toccatas and preludes, but he also composed for other instruments and for voices. His cantatas are still quite well-known in German church music.

I'm glad you like Stile Antico! They're really great. I love everything by them.

Also, thanks for comparing me to Fischer-Dieskau! ;) Well, we'll see where the journey will take me, but if I'll get good enough for solistic appearances, I'd probably rather sing oratories or, as I said, early music. I'm probably not extroverted enough for a life on the opera stage and I'm much more into church music than into opera anyway. My role model in this regard is Christian Gerhaher, who started as a lied singer and only later became an oratory and opera singer. He has a very special way of singing, but I love his voice and his musicianship. I also like Benjamin Appl, who mainly focuses on songs as well. He hasn't got the very best technique, but his voice is marvellous and he's still young.

"Gute Nacht" is the first Lied I ever learned, definitely a great one!

"El Grillo" is a fun one! It's stuck in my head now and I'm not complaining.

Bassoonists get Shanghaied too sometimes! Siegfried Jerusalem was a professional bassoonist until he needed to fill in for a sick tenor. Having an awesome name probably didn't hurt.

Minuet in G is about the limit of my piano skills too. Maybe someday I'll put in the time to get some real skills!

I'll have to check out Gerhaher and Appl.
0 x
/daɪ.nə.ˈnaɪ.səs/

User avatar
Deinonysus
Brown Belt
Posts: 1222
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:06 pm
Location: MA, USA
Languages:  
• Native: English
• Advanced: French
• Intermediate: German,
   Spanish, Hebrew
• Beginner: Italian,
   Arabic
x 4635

Re: An opera fan's language log - working on French

Postby Deinonysus » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:25 pm

General Language update
I haven't made much progress on my list of French movies and books, but I'm not too concerned. I'm keeping up with my other learning resources and I've been watching France24 every day. I've also been going onto YouTube and watching videos in French, especially cooking videos. I don't really cook much but it's relaxing to watch.

I also got a great concise grammar book, Essential French Grammar by Seymour Resnick. It was less than $3 on Amazon with Prime shipping. It's giving me some good ideas of stuff to memorize.

I really ought to be doing more to maintain my level of German; I really don't want it to get rusty. Plus, you never know when you're going to run into Germans, and we'll probably see some German tourists in France. I was listening to a lot of German music yesterday, and I watched a bit of Deutsche Welle news today. I went back to the Duolingo tree to dust off some of the cobwebs. I'm going to a German Restaurant tonight for some Currywurst and deutsches Bier; that's got to count, right?

This thread has really been getting me back into opera, so that's pushing back Spanish a bit on my "Window Shopping" timeline. Right now I'm thinking of this as a two-year timeline, with lots of Assimil in French to maintain my progress:

1st half of 2018: French Intermediate -> Advanced
2nd half of 2018: Italian Beginner -> Advanced (with Assimil, Sans peine and Perfectionnement)
1st half of 2019: German Intermediate -> Advanced (with Assimil Perfectionnement Allemand)
2nd half of 2019: Spanish Beginner -> Advanced (with Assimil, Sans peine and Perfectionnement)

I pretty short timelines for Italian and Spanish under the assumption that my French will help me a lot with them.

This is what I'm thinking now, but who knows what it will be in a week? As long as I keep putting in the work I'll make progress, timeline or no.
0 x
/daɪ.nə.ˈnaɪ.səs/

User avatar
Neurotip
Green Belt
Posts: 332
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:02 pm
Location: London, UK
Languages: eng N; ita & fra B2+, ell & deu B2-, ísl B1 (spa & swe A2?)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9850
x 660

Re: An opera fan's language log - working on French

Postby Neurotip » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:33 pm

The fricative /r/ is definitely very hard to sing in an operatic style. The uvular or tongue trills are much easier.

Interesting, it hadn't occurred to me that that would be an important difference. I do find it difficult to produce the tension needed to make a back fricative properly voiced, while keeping the fricative sound, in rapid connected speech. I have trouble with that in Spanish as well (la gente), although I think one can get away with a voiced velar approximant with minimal frication there (ditto Icelandic laga).

I'll have to check out that recording of Pelléas! My favorite is the 1942 Roger Désormière recording with Jacques Jansen and Irène Joachim. I don't think the whole album is on YouTube but here's a clip:

Wow! I found the Mélisande a bit fruity to start with (and I think her French is a bit dubious?), but she has a note of sadness, almost despair, that I find entirely appropriate. Jansen's voice is lovely, I see what they mean by baryton-martin now - like a tenor with an unusually rich lower register.
I was listening carefully for Jansen's /r/s of course, and most are straightforwardly tongue-tip trills, but just a couple of times (branches du saule, prisonnière) he does something very similar to the singers on my recording but I can't quite work out what it is - I don't think it's either purely alveolar or purely uvular.
0 x
Corrections welcome here

User avatar
Neurotip
Green Belt
Posts: 332
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:02 pm
Location: London, UK
Languages: eng N; ita & fra B2+, ell & deu B2-, ísl B1 (spa & swe A2?)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9850
x 660

Re: An opera fan's language log - working on French

Postby Neurotip » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:36 pm

By the way, the unsung hero of that Pelléas recording was clearly the conductor - wonderfully conducted IMHO - but who was it?? Not credited on YouTube and I can't find it by googling.
0 x
Corrections welcome here

User avatar
Deinonysus
Brown Belt
Posts: 1222
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:06 pm
Location: MA, USA
Languages:  
• Native: English
• Advanced: French
• Intermediate: German,
   Spanish, Hebrew
• Beginner: Italian,
   Arabic
x 4635

Re: An opera fan's language log - working on French

Postby Deinonysus » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:24 pm

Neurotip wrote:
The fricative /r/ is definitely very hard to sing in an operatic style. The uvular or tongue trills are much easier.

Interesting, it hadn't occurred to me that that would be an important difference. I do find it difficult to produce the tension needed to make a back fricative properly voiced, while keeping the fricative sound, in rapid connected speech. I have trouble with that in Spanish as well (la gente), although I think one can get away with a voiced velar approximant with minimal frication there (ditto Icelandic laga).

I'll have to check out that recording of Pelléas! My favorite is the 1942 Roger Désormière recording with Jacques Jansen and Irène Joachim. I don't think the whole album is on YouTube but here's a clip:

Wow! I found the Mélisande a bit fruity to start with (and I think her French is a bit dubious?), but she has a note of sadness, almost despair, that I find entirely appropriate. Jansen's voice is lovely, I see what they mean by baryton-martin now - like a tenor with an unusually rich lower register.
I was listening carefully for Jansen's /r/s of course, and most are straightforwardly tongue-tip trills, but just a couple of times (branches du saule, prisonnière) he does something very similar to the singers on my recording but I can't quite work out what it is - I don't think it's either purely alveolar or purely uvular.

The problem I have with the fricative /r/ is that you need to devoice it a bit to "get the phlegm out", which breaks the legato line. I think the reason I have an easier time with the uvular and tongue trills is that they're fully voiced and you don't need to back off of the vowel sound at all. This is only an issue in singing; you should definitely be able to get away with a quick "gente" with practice.

The /r/ in those passages sounds to me like a quick German /r/, like a French /r/ but a bit lower in the throat and with little to no phlegm.

I believe that clip is from the album I have, which was conducted by Roger Désormièr.

I would say that a Baryton-martin is a voice that's between baritone and tenor that's comfortable in both ranges but doesn't have the weight of a true baritone or the ease of a true tenor, so basically the French version of a Heldentenor.
0 x
/daɪ.nə.ˈnaɪ.səs/

User avatar
Deinonysus
Brown Belt
Posts: 1222
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:06 pm
Location: MA, USA
Languages:  
• Native: English
• Advanced: French
• Intermediate: German,
   Spanish, Hebrew
• Beginner: Italian,
   Arabic
x 4635

Re: An opera fan's language log - working on French

Postby Deinonysus » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:16 pm

The other day I was doing a Duolingo exercise and I was able to remember the gender of a word because I remembered how it was used in an aria from Carmen:

"La fleur que tu m'avais jetée..."

So I remembered that flower is feminine in French, even though there's no clue from the spelling. I've had similar experiences where I was able to remember figure something out in German because of Lieder lyrics I had memorized. So I think that I should start memorizing more French aria and song lyrics, including some popular songs. I'll aim to memorize one song or aria a day (including looking up any words I don't know) on top of my other goals. This will be a fun way to internalize grammar and learn new vocabulary, and it can probably replace Memrise.

Today's song will be "Après un rêve" by Fauré. I do have it mostly memorized already, but I always forget which line comes next so I could definitely learn it better. I think tomorrow's song will have to be the flower song from Carmen, since it has already helped me.

I have a bad habit of relying too much on sheet music. The only French aria that I have memorized cold is "Avant de quitter ces lieux", a baritone aria from Gounod's Faust, but I learned that phonetically before I spoke any French, so I will probably need to take another look at that too and clear up any mistakes.
1 x
/daɪ.nə.ˈnaɪ.səs/


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests