An opera fan's log - Learning Italian, polishing German & French, reading anglophone lit

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mvillalba
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Re: An opera fan's log - Learning Italian, polishing German & French, reading anglophone lit

Postby mvillalba » Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:00 pm

Deinonysus wrote:But Italian is just kind of... French but you pronounce all the letters and move your hands more.

MDR, trop marrant !


On a more serious note, I had a similar thing with Italian (though interestingly, not with French): it just felt too easy. It helps I'm a native Spanish speaker, but still, it's just so transparent and straightforward. I like reading in Italian, and listening to them speak; there is just something very pleasant and melodic about the language or I can't imagine I would have bothered learning it.
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Re: An opera fan's log - Learning Italian, polishing German & French, reading anglophone lit

Postby jonm » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:01 pm

Deinonysus wrote:Working on Italian seems almost anticlimactic after having spent month on Hebrew this year and Indonesian last year. Hebrew is a constant puzzle of new grammar and incomplete spelling, and even though Indonesian grammar is simple there was still a ton of new vocabulary to get used to, and the verb affixes and the tenseless aspect system are new and interesting to me. But Italian is just kind of... French but you pronounce all the letters and move your hands more. There are no puzzles and there isn't much thinking to do. I'm not learning it from scratch, I'm learning how it differs from French. And it's not a puzzle, it's just something to get through because I want to understand Italian. But, I'm not losing steam and it's not frustrating at all, it's just that I'm focusing on the destination rather than the journey.
mvillalba wrote:On a more serious note, I had a similar thing with Italian (though interestingly, not with French): it just felt too easy. It helps I'm a native Spanish speaker, but still, it's just so transparent and straightforward. I like reading in Italian, and listening to them speak; there is just something very pleasant and melodic about the language or I can't imagine I would have bothered learning it.

I've just recently started back up with Italian, and I can really relate to what you're both saying. You get such a leg up if you already speak a Romance language, and I wouldn't want to give up that advantage, but I do sometimes miss the feeling of puzzling over unfamiliar patterns and making discoveries. Sometimes I get a little impatient, like with so much that's familiar, I should already know this language.

On the other hand, what got me interested in Italian again was taking a crack at native material and discovering that I could already understand quite a bit, even if some of it escaped me. I'm still planning to use material for learners (Assimil, L'italiano secondo il metodo natura...), but it's exciting that native material can be part of the mix so early.

Also, I fully agree with mvillalba that there's "something very pleasant and melodic" about Italian, and it's motivating to feel like I'm not just learning this language because it's relatively easy to learn another Romance language, but because it has a particular appeal.

Deinonysus wrote:The easy time I'm having with Italian is also encouraging me to learn Spanish and Portuguese sooner rather than later; I'm expecting a similarly easy time. The main problem will be keeping all of these languages separate. I might want to try getting Assimil Spanish in both French and Italian; the audio should be the same if I make sure to get the same edition, so I won't need to get two super-packs; then maybe I could find some Portuguese learning resources in Spanish. But Hebrew is a higher priority. I want to start phasing it back in as I finish up with the Italian resources. That will give me some time to save up for all of those Assimil books.

I can relate to this too. Both wanting to continue learning Romance languages and the concern about keeping them separate. For me, the important thing is leaving a little space between them as you put them on the conveyor belt. Some months back, I was working on beginner Latin, Italian, and Catalan all at the same time, and that was just too much for me to keep straight. So for a while now I've just been focusing on Latin. I actually wasn't planning to add Italian back in so soon (since I'm still very much a beginner in Latin), but so far it feels like they may be sufficiently separate in my head to work on both at once. I think that's as many as I can handle though.

If you end up doing Assimil Spanish from both a French and an Italian base, I'd be interested to here how it goes.

By the way, which edition of L'italien sans peine are you doing? Do you like it so far compared to other Assimil courses you've done?

Also, in case you're looking for something to read, I'm always on the lookout for beginner reading material that's actually interesting, and I just read an A2–B1 supernatural mystery called Non puoi essere tu and found it to be an effective page-turner with a good amount of personality and specificity. Planning to read the other two books in the series.

(The Italian book for native speakers that I mentioned is super niche and probably not of interest, it's about the Ultima series of computer games in the 80s, but that's here. I find niche stuff about hobbies or the like works great for language learning, because I get to read or hear about something I enjoy, but I'm also not bothered if I don't understand something.)
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Re: An opera fan's log - Learning Italian, polishing German & French, reading anglophone lit

Postby Deinonysus » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:18 pm

I bought my opera tickets yesterday. I'll be seeing Pagliacci, Norma, and Giulio Cesare. Lots of classics this season!

The most famous aria from Pagliacci is «Vesti la giubba», but my favorite is «No, pagliaccio non son» which comes right at the end. I can't pick a favorite version so I'll post three, by three of my favorite tenors, Franco Corelli, Jon Vickers, and Enrico Caruso:





Norma is mostly famous for the show-stopper soprano aria «Casta diva». There are a lot of great renditions, but my favorite is by Marian Anderson.

She was mostly known for her Lieder and spirituals (very beautiful of course but generally more subdued than opera) and this virtuosic aria is a departure from her usual material, but she proved that she had some serious pipes. And she only had to lower it by a whole step despite being a contralto! She had a limited operatic career due to the racism of the time; she was the first black person to ever sing on stage at the Met opera house, as a supporting character in Verdi's Un ballo in maschera, and I'm not sure if she ever had any other roles. But if had been able to get her hands on more operatic roles, I think she would have been one of the undisputed greatest opera singers of all time. But even without a big opera career she is still an absolute legend, of course.

Here is a Lied that shows off some more of her insane range, Schubert's „Der Tod und das Mädchen“.


jonm wrote:By the way, which edition of L'italien sans peine are you doing? Do you like it so far compared to other Assimil courses you've done?

I'm using the very latest edition of L'italien sans peine. You can tell by the square flag in the upper right corner, which replaced the ovoid blob flags. I'm not a collector so I don't have multiple editions of any Assimil books. I'm only noticing a couple of differences with the newer edition: slicker graphics, a different third color (red instead of blue), and no references to obsolete technology. My copy of Assimil Hebrew (in English) is from 2015, but there was a lesson about all different sorts of phones including car phones! I think this is because it was translated from an older French book, from 2000 I think. It's from the older generation with the blob flags.
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Re: An opera fan's log - Learning Italian, polishing German & French, reading anglophone lit

Postby garyb » Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:22 pm

Deinonysus wrote:Working on Italian seems almost anticlimactic after having spent month on Hebrew this year and Indonesian last year. Hebrew is a constant puzzle of new grammar and incomplete spelling, and even though Indonesian grammar is simple there was still a ton of new vocabulary to get used to, and the verb affixes and the tenseless aspect system are new and interesting to me. But Italian is just kind of... French but you pronounce all the letters and move your hands more. There are no puzzles and there isn't much thinking to do. I'm not learning it from scratch, I'm learning how it differs from French. And it's not a puzzle, it's just something to get through because I want to understand Italian. But, I'm not losing steam and it's not frustrating at all, it's just that I'm focusing on the destination rather than the journey.


I think this could be a case of "be careful what you wish for" ;) The leg-up from a related language mostly applies at the beginner level, but once you've got the basics there's still a lot of hard work ahead to reach a high level so if you want a challenge you'll get it soon enough. Less hard work than if you don't know the related language, for sure, but things slow down after that excitingly fast initial period and it adds its own problems like interference, which lessens over time but rarely goes away fully. Personally I got to a basic conversational level (B1ish speaking, better comprehension) in a matter of months, but going from there to speaking well is still a work in progress seven or eight years later.

I also believe that each new Romance language has slightly harmed the previous, in that I sometimes mix up words or have to pause and think about things like which preposition to use in situations where it used to come automatically. That's due partly to interference and partly to just having less time to spend on each.

Don't get me wrong, the issue of interference is quite minor in the grand scheme of things and is a trade-off I'll happily accept: I'd rather speak three foreign languages quite well than speak one very well. I just recommend being realistic about it and keeping in mind that the quick and easy progress in Italian won't last forever. Of course if your goal is just understanding, you really do have an easy ride as the difficulties I've described relate purely to production, although opera does often use old-fashioned words that you won't hear in modern language so be prepared for that.

Enjoy Italian!
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Re: An opera fan's log - Learning Italian, polishing German & French, reading anglophone lit

Postby jonm » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:26 pm

Deinonysus wrote:
jonm wrote:By the way, which edition of L'italien sans peine are you doing? Do you like it so far compared to other Assimil courses you've done?

I'm using the very latest edition of L'italien sans peine. You can tell by the square flag in the upper right corner, which replaced the ovoid blob flags. I'm not a collector so I don't have multiple editions of any Assimil books. I'm only noticing a couple of differences with the newer edition: slicker graphics, a different third color (red instead of blue), and no references to obsolete technology. My copy of Assimil Hebrew (in English) is from 2015, but there was a lesson about all different sorts of phones including car phones! I think this is because it was translated from an older French book, from 2000 I think. It's from the older generation with the blob flags.

Ah, so you're during the current course. The way Assimil name their courses, I wasn't sure if you were doing the one from the 50s, the one from the 80s, or the current one.

(I probably should have realized it wouldn't be the one from the 80s, since that's Le nouvel italien sans peine, but the English-base version of that one is just called Italian with ease, and on the current courses it's hard to tell whether "sans peine" is part of the title or just the name of the series, so it's all a little confusing. And I forgot they had released a second, somewhat updated edition of the current course. Though you wouldn't know it from the way my Assimil courses are starting to pile up, I'm not a collector either and not on top of all the details. :))

The reason I ask is that I was torn when choosing between the 80s course and the current one. Some reviewers of the current course weren't crazy about aspects of the modern Assimil approach, such as shorter lessons. But I've liked most of the modern Assimil courses I've tried. I do like the older courses with their relatively rich ongoing storylines, but I also appreciate many aspects of the newer courses, such as review dialogues, recurrence of vocabulary, and gradual learning curves. So just wondering if you were enjoying the course content.

In my case, I ended up going with the 80s course, and I'm enjoying it so far (its storyline is reminiscent of the one in the well-liked El catalán sin esfuerzo, where you follow someone traveling from one city to another to visit friends, though the storyline in the Italian course is perhaps not quite as vivid). And now when I visit Italy, I'll be all ready to book train travel in the smoking car, pay in lire, and operate a phone booth. :lol:
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Re: An opera fan's log - Learning Italian, polishing German & French, reading anglophone lit

Postby Deinonysus » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:20 pm

I missed both Assimil and piano practice yesterday. But I think that was the right call. I have a baby, I can't expect to do everything every day and still get enough sleep.

I'm starting to hit my first frustration in Italian. The prepositions differ from French just enough to throw me off. I'm having a hard time generalizing when to use them, especially with time expressions, but once I'm used to the individual use cases I should be able to intuit the general principles.

garyb wrote:I think this could be a case of "be careful what you wish for" ;) The leg-up from a related language mostly applies at the beginner level, but once you've got the basics there's still a lot of hard work ahead to reach a high level so if you want a challenge you'll get it soon enough. Less hard work than if you don't know the related language, for sure, but things slow down after that excitingly fast initial period and it adds its own problems like interference, which lessens over time but rarely goes away fully. Personally I got to a basic conversational level (B1ish speaking, better comprehension) in a matter of months, but going from there to speaking well is still a work in progress seven or eight years later.

I also believe that each new Romance language has slightly harmed the previous, in that I sometimes mix up words or have to pause and think about things like which preposition to use in situations where it used to come automatically. That's due partly to interference and partly to just having less time to spend on each.

Don't get me wrong, the issue of interference is quite minor in the grand scheme of things and is a trade-off I'll happily accept: I'd rather speak three foreign languages quite well than speak one very well. I just recommend being realistic about it and keeping in mind that the quick and easy progress in Italian won't last forever. Of course if your goal is just understanding, you really do have an easy ride as the difficulties I've described relate purely to production, although opera does often use old-fashioned words that you won't hear in modern language so be prepared for that.

Enjoy Italian!


That's actually fairly encouraging to me, at least in the short term. I'm not planning on getting past the intermediate level at the moment. Once I'm done with Pimsleur, Duolingo, and Assimil Italian, I'm going back to Hebrew. So I'll probably getting off of the Italian train just before it starts to get frustrating.

Good production would be nice, especially if I ever get the chance to visit Italy, but I mostly just want to understand more opera lyrics than just "blah blah blah French cognates blah blah blah English cognates blah blah blah mamma mia spaghetto."

jonm wrote:Ah, so you're during the current course. The way Assimil name their courses, I wasn't sure if you were doing the one from the 50s, the one from the 80s, or the current one.

(I probably should have realized it wouldn't be the one from the 80s, since that's Le nouvel italien sans peine, but the English-base version of that one is just called Italian with ease, and on the current courses it's hard to tell whether "sans peine" is part of the title or just the name of the series, so it's all a little confusing. And I forgot they had released a second, somewhat updated edition of the current course. Though you wouldn't know it from the way my Assimil courses are starting to pile up, I'm not a collector either and not on top of all the details. :))

The reason I ask is that I was torn when choosing between the 80s course and the current one. Some reviewers of the current course weren't crazy about aspects of the modern Assimil approach, such as shorter lessons. But I've liked most of the modern Assimil courses I've tried. I do like the older courses with their relatively rich ongoing storylines, but I also appreciate many aspects of the newer courses, such as review dialogues, recurrence of vocabulary, and gradual learning curves. So just wondering if you were enjoying the course content.

In my case, I ended up going with the 80s course, and I'm enjoying it so far (its storyline is reminiscent of the one in the well-liked El catalán sin esfuerzo, where you follow someone traveling from one city to another to visit friends, though the storyline in the Italian course is perhaps not quite as vivid). And now when I visit Italy, I'll be all ready to book train travel in the smoking car, pay in lire, and operate a phone booth. :lol:

The only course from the 80s I have is Using French. That's the only advanced level Assimil course I have so I can't make comparisons. The printing and layout did seem much slicker in the newer books.

I did notice that the Italian lessons seemed a bit short, but I'm still early in the course and Italian and French are much more similar than any of the other pairs of languages I have Assimil courses for.
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Re: An opera fan's log - Learning Italian, polishing German & French, reading anglophone lit

Postby Deinonysus » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:58 pm

English

My ebook loan ended on The Picture of Dorian Gray, but I figured out how to get ebook files into the Kindle app on my phone, and since it's public domain I was able to get it for free on Project Gutenberg. So now I can read it at my leisure.

I got a loan on the ebook of Flowers for Algernon and I'm really enjoying it, and it's a much faster read than the Victorian novels I've been reading. I started it a couple of days ago and I'm around 2/3 of the way through; the loan expires in a few days but that's plenty of time. It's not that the older books are any less enjoyable, but the pacing is completely different. They don't beg you to turn the page and see what happens next. They take you on a leisurely stroll and slowly build the atmosphere. The plot does move, but it never rushes. Because of this, I read modern novels much more quickly. I read through Orwell's 1984 very quickly last year, so I guess modern pacing was in full swing by 1949 when it was written. It's like a switch was flipped some time in the 20th century. I'm not sure when it started. Maybe Agatha Christie?

In any case, I'll try to prioritize postwar novels because I can get through them much faster. This kind of works out, since if it's out of the public domain it's probably a page turner so I'll have fewer problems sticking with short library loans. I think Catch-22 will be my next ebook loan after I'm done with Flowers for Algernon, and between loans I'll keep pecking away at The War of the Worlds when I have the time and energy to sit down and read at home (which is never), and The Picture of Dorian Gray otherwise.

Italiano

I've figured out my issue is with distinguishing between the open and closed e and o sounds. As it turns out, my ears are fine; the female speaker pronounces a very clear open e and open o, like the textbook IPA sounds, but the problem is that most of the Italian script is read by the male voice, and he pronounces them differently. He pronounces the open e as some sort of a diphthong, like /ai/ or /ei/ but centralized, and I don't think he makes any distinction between the open and closed o. Assimil does say that the o distinction is not as common as it used to be so they wouldn't bother to notate the difference. I'm also noticing this diphthong version of the open e sometimes in Assimil, although it's a bit more subtle than the guy in Pimsleur.

Deutsch

I made some progress getting the prefixes into Anki. I'm doing them bi-directionally. I've settled on this format:

German side:
  • The German word
  • Whether the prefix is seperable or inseperable. I leave this out if it's an idiom; this won't need to be marked because if it's multiple words it's an idiom

English side
  • Whether it's an idiom. Also, if there is a seperable and inseperable version with the exact same definition, I'll say which one it is.
  • The definition
  • The example sentence in English.

Unfortunately I don't have anywhere good to put the example sentence in German without giving everything away, but the English sentence should at least be enough to jog my memory.

A lot of the German children's books I want to read are also public domain, so I should also be able to get those. I bought some cheap print-on-demand hard copies, but I'm starting to get the hang of using an ereader and it's more convenient because I can read anywhere.
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Re: An opera fan's log - Learning Italian, polishing German & French, reading anglophone lit

Postby Deinonysus » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:02 pm

I made a couple of big changes in my phonemic English alphabet, which I call the Wāᵧrd (Wayard) alphabet, after the Wayard/Weird sisters in Macbeth. I have always tried to make it a compromise between General American (GenAm) and Southern British Received Pronunciation (RP), but vowel length is important in RP and I did not clearly mark which vowels were short and which were long. Now, only long vowels and diphthongs get diacritics. To match with a e i o and u, the three other lexical sets that are short vowels in RP now have their own symbols:
  • put - pʊt
  • dog - dɔg (same as "o" in RP and in GenAm with caught/cot merger)
  • very - verʏ (never stressed, always comes at the end of a root)
If you're IPA-savvy, note that the first two are the same as the IPA symbols (the second one only for GenAm), but the last one is not.

I also made a change to the two "x" letters, which have a distinctive behavior. They follow an unstressed initial e at least as often as not and I wanted a shortcut to indicate the stress, so now unstressed e is left out before unvoiced x (x) and voiced x (ξ). So:
  • expert - expurt
  • extreme - xtrēm
  • exit - eξit
  • exact - ξakt
It helps that the greek letter Xi, which I use for the voiced x, looks like an E, and so does the uppercase Ξ if you use your imagination.

The following are not changes, but they should cover most of the pronunciation rules, which I have never explained on this forum:
  • ᵧ is an unstressed schwa. All words except ᵧ (a) and ðᵧ (the) must have at least one non-ᵧ vowel. The uppercase version is Ɣ.
  • If the primary stress does not fall on the first non-ᵧ vowel, it is marked with an underdot, as in "himsẹlf".
  • A letter with a macron (bar above) is pronounced the same as the name of the letter: ā ē ī ō ū.
  • The letters a and o have alternate long sounds: "å" as in "spa" (spå) and "o̊" as in "boo" (bo̊). The letter â is pronounced the same as "å" in RP and the same as "a" in GenAm, as in "âsk".
  • For the other long vowels and diphthongs, the shape of the diacritic mark will give you a hint about the traditional English spelling: ă as in "tăt" (taught), ŏ as in "lŏd" (loud), and oͥ as in "poͥnt" (point).
  • Several vowels may sound different when combined with an "r": "ur" as in "hurt", "ēr" as in "bēr" (beer), "ār" as in "bār" (bear), "år" as in "stårt", ᵧr as in "pāpᵧr" (paper), "or" as in "for", and "ōr" as in "fōr" (four). The last two are pronounced the same in the two reference dialects, but differently in many other prominent dialects.
  • The three symbols ʒ, ʃ, and ŋ have the same values as in the IPA: bāʒ (beige), fiʃ (fish), riŋ (ring). The uppercase versions are Ʒ, Ʃ, and Ŋ, respectively.
  • "Th" becomes ð if voiced or þ if unvoiced. The uppercase versions are Ð and Þ, respectively.
  • "Wh" becomes ƕ. The uppercase version is Ƕ.
  • "Ch" becomes "c", which never makes a "k" or "s" sound.
  • "G" always sounds like "get", never "gem".
  • "S" always sounds like "sip", never "is".
  • "Q" sounds like "qu" as in "queen" but the "u" is not written.
  • Some common words follow RP in a lexical set disagreement and may confuse Americans: "what" is "ƕot", "was" is "woz", and "of" is "ov". Don't confuse "ov" with "ɔf" (off). Also watch out for pʊr instead of pōr for "poor" and wosp instead of wåsp for "wasp".
  • But if there is a difference in stress, expect the GenAm pronunciation, so for example we have "controversy" as kontrᵧvursʏ instead of kᵧntrovᵧrsʏ and "filet" as filạ̄ instead of filᵧt.
A tilde can be used after any letter to indicate that it marks a sound in a foreign word that is not found in RP or GenAm English and can't be approximated by a similar English sound. The exact sound-letter correspondence will depend on the language it's trying to represent.
  • loch - loc~
  • llan - l~ån
  • salon - sålọn~
  • über - u~ber
  • Goethe - Go~tᵧ
  • Xhosa - X~hosa
Hēr år ᵧ fū ξampᵧlz:

Ðᵧ furst hâf ov Hamlᵧt's fāmᵧs sᵧlilᵧqʏ:

To̊ bē, or not to̊ bē, ðat iz ðᵧ qescᵧn:
Ƕeðᵧr 'tiz nōblᵧr in ðᵧ mīnd to̊ sufᵧr
Ðᵧ sliŋz and arōz ov ŏtrạ̄jᵧs forcᵧn,
Or to̊ tāk årmz ᵧgānst ᵧ sē ov trubᵧlz
And bī ᵧpōziŋ end ðem. To̊ dī—to̊ slēp,
Nō mōr; and bī ᵧ slēp to̊ sā wē end
Ðᵧ hårtāk and ðᵧ þŏzᵧnd nac'rᵧl ʃoks
Ðat fleʃ iz ār to̊: 'tiz ᵧ konsᵧmạ̄ʃᵧn
Divọ̆tlʏ to̊ bē wiʃt. To̊ dī, to̊ slēp;
To̊ slēp, pᵧrcâns to̊ drēm—ī, ðār'z ðᵧ rub:
For in ðat slēp ov deþ, ƕot drēmz mā kum,
Ƕen wē hav ʃufᵧld ɔf ðis mortᵧl koͥl,
Must giv us păz—ðār'z ðᵧ rispẹkt
Ðat māks kᵧlamᵧtʏ ov sō lɔŋ līf.

Ðᵧ bigịniŋ ov Mᵧkbeþ:

Ƕen ʃal wē þrē mēt ᵧgān
In þundᵧr, lītniŋ, or in rān?
Ƕen ðᵧ hurlʏburlʏ'z dun,
Ƕen ðᵧ batᵧl'z lɔst and wun.
Ðat wil bē ār ðᵧ set ov sun.
Ƕār ðᵧ plās?
Ɣpon ðᵧ heþ.
Ðār to̊ mēt wiþ Mᵧkbeþ.
Ī kum, Grāmặlkin!
Padᵧk kălz.
Ɣnon.
Fār iz fŏl, and fŏl iz fār:
Huvᵧr þro̊ ðᵧ fog and filþʏ ār.

Ðᵧ bigịniŋ ov ðᵧ ŪS deklᵧrạ̄ʃᵧn ov indipẹndᵧns:

Ƕen in ðᵧ Kōrs ov hūmᵧn ivẹnts it bikụmz nesᵧsārʏ for wun pēpᵧl to̊ dizọlv ðᵧ pᵧlitikᵧl bandz ƕic hav kᵧnektᵧd ðem wiþ ᵧnuðᵧr and to̊ ᵧsūm ᵧmuŋ ðᵧ pŏᵧrz ov ðē urþ, ðᵧ seprᵧt and ēqᵧl stāʃᵧn to̊ ƕic ðᵧ Lăz ov Nācᵧr and ov Nācᵧr'z Gɔd entị̄tᵧl ðem, ᵧ dēsᵧnt rispẹkt to̊ ðē ᵧpinyᵧnz ov mankị̄nd riqị̄rz ðat ðā ʃʊd diklạ̄r ðᵧ kăzᵧz ƕic impẹl ðem to̊ ðᵧ sepᵧrạ̄ʃᵧn.

Wē hōld ðēz tro̊þs to̊ bē self-evidᵧnt, ðat ăl men år krēạ̄tᵧd ēqᵧl, ðat ðā år endọ̆d bī ðār krēạ̄tᵧr wiþ surtᵧn unạ̄lēᵧnᵧbᵧl Rīts, ðat ᵧmuŋ ðēz år Līf, Libᵧrtʏ, and ðᵧ pᵧrsūt ov Hapʏnᵧs.

Jenᵧsis 1:1-5 (Kiŋ Jāmz Vurʒᵧn)
  1. In ðᵧ bigịniŋ God krēạ̄tᵧd ðᵧ hevᵧn and ðē urþ.
  2. And ðē urþ woz wiþọ̆t form, and voͥd; and dårknᵧs woz ᵧpon ðᵧ fās ov ðᵧ dēp. And ðᵧ spērit ov God mo̊vd ᵧpon ðᵧ fās ov ðᵧ wåtᵧrz.
  3. And God sed, Let ðār bē līt: and ðār woz līt.
  4. And God să ðᵧ līt, ðat it woz gʊd: and God divị̄dᵧd ðᵧ līt from ðᵧ dårknᵧs.
  5. And God kăld ðᵧ līt Dā, and ðᵧ dårknᵧs hē kăld Nīt. And ðē ēvniŋ and ðᵧ morniŋ wur ðᵧ furst dā.
3 x

User avatar
Deinonysus
Blue Belt
Posts: 535
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:06 pm
Location: Boston
Languages:  
• Native: English
• Advanced: French,
   German
• Intermediate:
   Esperanto
• Beginner: Icelandic,
   Italian, Hebrew,
   Japanese, Spanish,
   Danish, Indonesian
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7581
x 1449

Re: An opera fan's log - Learning Italian, polishing German & French, reading anglophone lit

Postby Deinonysus » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:01 pm

I haven't made much progress in Italian. I've been too focused on my phonetic alphabet. I haven't done Assimil in ages. I did do one Duolingo lesson.

I made a few major changes. The ᵧ symbol for schwa was a descender and it was really cluttering up the script, so I changed it into a middle dot: ·

So "the" changes from "ðᵧ" to "ð·".

There's no capital version of ·, so you capitalize the next letter instead, as in "·Merik·" (America).

I also changed the underdot for a stressed syllable into a vertical line, to be more eye-catching and also not risk getting covered up by an underline. So now "himself" looks like "himse̩lf".

This same vertical line symbol is used in Yoruba to mark the open e (e̩) and o (o̩).

The problem with "ur"

I made a few more changes after realising I needed a few more vowels. For example, I can't just have a plain "ur" for NURSE because it contrasts in RP and also in GenAm for those like me who don't have the hurry-furry merger. Hurry is unchanged by the r, but furry is changed to the NURSE vowel, and I need to mark that change:

hurry - hurʏ
furry - fûrʏ

And since Scottish English was not affected by the fir-fur-fern merger because it doesn't use that approximant r that causes so many problems, it makes sense to add not one but three new symbols for NURSE. It looks much better anyway:
fir - fîr
sir - sîr
stir - stîr
fern - fêrn
earth - êrþ
were - wêr
her - hêr
nurse - nûrs
worm - wûrm
hurt - hûrt

The problem with "or"

I also can't use a bare "or" for NORTH because it contrasts in a few common words for GenAm:

borrow - borō
sorry - sorʏ
sorrow - sorō
tomorrow - t·morō
morrow - morō

I also learned that a lot of words that I pronounces like NORTH are pronounced like CLOTH in RP, meaning that the symbol should be "ɔ".

So an o before an r can have one of four symbols, including the new symbol ô for NORTH:
borrow - borō
horror - hɔr·r
north - nôrþ
force - fōrs (pronounced like north to me; I need to look these words up to see which symbol to use).

I'm also adding one irregular word, mirror, which will have a plain "ir".

nearer - nēr·r
mirror - mir·r (pronounced differently from "nearer" in RP only, not GenAm)
squirrel - sqîr·l (After GenAm pronunciation instead of RP which pronounces it like "mirror")

I'm claiming "squirrel" for the US, but I'm conceding aluminum as "alūmi̩nʏ·m".

The four new vowels with hats bring me from 20 vowels to 24, for a total of 52 letters. My alphabet is now exactly twice the size of the bare English alphabet.

Revised excerpt from Hamlet:

To̊ bē, ôr not to̊ bē, ðat iz ð· qesc·n:
Ƕeð·r 'tiz nōbl·r in ð· mīnd to̊ suf·r
з sliŋz and arōz ov ŏtrā̩j·s fôrc·n,
Ôr to̊ tāk årmz ·gānst · sē ov trub·lz
And bī ·pōziŋ end ðem. To̊ dī—to̊ slēp,
Nō mōr; and bī · slēp to̊ sā wē end
з hårtāk and ð· þŏz·nd nac'r·l ʃoks
Ðat fleʃ iz ār to̊: 'tiz · kons·mā̩ʃ·n
Divŏ̩tlʏ to̊ bē wiʃt. To̊ dī, to̊ slēp;
To̊ slēp, p·rcâns to̊ drēm—ī, ðār'z ð· rub:
Fôr in ðat slēp ov deþ, ƕot drēmz mā kum,
Ƕen wē hav ʃuf·ld ɔf ðis môrt·l koͥl,
Must giv us păz—ðār'z ð· rispe̩kt
Ðat māks k·lam·tʏ ov sō lɔŋ līf.
3 x
Diné Bizaad
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isiXhosa
: 15 / 364 Memrise - Xhosa: an intro
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User avatar
SGP
Blue Belt
Posts: 918
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:33 pm
Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), ES (B2), FR (B2); some more at various levels
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 30#p120230
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Re: An opera fan's log - Learning Italian, polishing German & French, reading anglophone lit

Postby SGP » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:06 am

Deinonysus wrote:Vielleicht werde ich es tun, wann ich im Herbst zu Hause mit meiner Tochter bin.

Zur Unterscheidung von "wann" und "wenn":
Mit A ist es das Frage-Wort.
2 x
Still the same person, but not SGP anymore.

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