Xmmm's Log ...

[Xmmm]

Russian

Floundering with August 1914 ... underwater at the moment, hopefully I learn how to swim by chapter ten or so.

Italian

I finished Hitler's Circle of Evil. Time to start Inside the World's Toughest Prisons! I have another Italki session scheduled for next week.

Turkish

One of the things that has hurt me in Russian has been having too many resources. Modern Russian, the Princeton Course, Assimil, Duolingo, RussianPod101, a few other web apps, podcasts, TV, clozemaster, audiobooks, and so on. It's confusing and there's a lot of disruption switching and constantly looking for new ones.

One of the things that helped me in Italian was keeping things a lot simpler. I didn't just do Duolingo and TV, but they were 90% of what I did.

I'd like to keep Turkish simple. Duolingo (will get my owl this week sometime), followed by clozemaster. I will read The Turkish Language Explained for English Speakers to get a 30,000 foot view of the language. A year from now, if I really need it, I'll take a look at The Delights of Learning Turkish -- but I don't have a good track record finishing things that involve very much work so only if I really need it.

And on a separate track, I'll watch TV. All Turkish TV is too complicated for me now, but the simplest high quality show I've found is Diriliş: Ertuğrul. I've finished 16 episodes, watching pretty casually and not understanding a whole lot. Going forward, I plan to mimic what I did for Italian ... something like: watch a scene with Turkish subtitles. If I don't understand, roll it back and watch with English subtitles, then watch with Turkish subtitles again. This turns a 40 minute show in a two hour production ... but this a pretty simple show. Eventually, scenes will get somewhat repetitive and I'll pick up vocab and be able to say "I understood that scene, press on."

[kujichagulia]

(Even if you lived in an immersion environment, you couldn’t just stream hour after hour of compelling content. Like after Fresh Prince of Bel-Air came Alf. You were at the mercy of the broadcaster...)

Wasn’t Alf before Fresh Prince of Bel Air? Or are my childhood memories scrambled up again?

[smallwhite]

https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 776#p18131

You wrote this in 2015. People often answer questions with prediction rather than experience, and I often wonder what the prediction turns out to be. How accurate was yours?

"How long to get basic conversational in Russian?"

... "400 hours".

... "I've put in 250 hours and am not A2 conversational yet. I think I will be there in another 150 hours".

[Xmmm]

https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1776#p18131

You wrote this in 2015. People often make predictions like this, and I often wonder what the situation turns out to be. How accurate was your prediction?

"How long to get basic conversational in Russian?"

... "400 hours".

... "I've put in 250 hours and am not A2 conversational yet. I think I will be there in another 150 hours".

That estimate was pretty accurate as far as it went. I started Italki a week after that post and I was probably A2 by March or April of 2016 after doing something like 450 hours +/- 50.

However, looking back on it I would never give such an estimate now.

If the goal is to be an A2 speaker for tourist reasons, people should just do 45 hours of Pimsleur and 50 hours of tutoring ... and be done with it.

People who have higher aspirations should not even have A2 as an intermediate goal because it has no meaning in that context, etc.

[smallwhite]

People who have higher aspirations should not even have A2 as an intermediate goal because it has no meaning in that context, etc.

You once wrote, "if I abandon Russian at A2, I would at least like to be A2 across the board". It's desirable to be conversational both shall you give up and while you keep advancing, no?

What is your goal (level) for Russian?

[Xmmm]

You once wrote, "if I abandon Russian at A2, I would at least like to be A2 across the board".

You seem to be coming from an angle where you're pointing out out that I'm not self-consistent. But I agree with the great American thinker Emerson that "a foolish consistency is the hob-goblin of little minds."

I'm not going to defend things I said two years ago if it turns out they were wrong ...

It's desirable to be conversational both shall you give up and while you keep advancing, no?

No. It's not desirable. If you are a B2 listener, you can be a good conversationalist even if you give one word answers or nod and shake your head. If you are an A2 listener, you literally cannot have a real conversation. Native speakers have to go down to your level and sit on your "islands" with you. And they will get so bored ...

What is your goal for Russian?

I don't know. There are goals and SMART goals and aspirations and resolutions. It's all very confusing. The confusion is compounded by limitations. I have time constraints. I'm apparently not the world's best language learner. And so on.

I would like to be able to read Russian novels without a dictionary. I would like to understand more than 90% of what I hear on Russian TV or radio. I would like to speak Russian decently well, given the fact that I don't live in Russia and don't have close relationships with any native Russian speakers. If I ran into a random educated Russian on the street, I wouldn't need any warm up time, and he would think my Russian was "pretty decent -- good for an American."

Those are more like dreams than goals, but I don't even know what the word "goal" means in the language learning context anymore. I'm not trying to pass a test so I can emigrate to Russia, or marry a Russian, or get a job with a Russian company, etc.

edit: fix typos

[smallwhite]

You seem to be coming from an angle where you're pointing out out that I'm not self-consistent. But I agree with the great American thinker Emerson that "a foolish consistency is the hob-goblin of little minds."

I'm not going to defend things I said two years ago if it turns out they were wrong ...

That was me coming from thinking you have the ability to reflect on your learning, if you remember I said that recently. But you seem to think that growing up and thinking differently from when you were a child is bad and needs defending.

It's desirable to be conversational both shall you give up and while you keep advancing, no?

No. It's not desirable. If you are a B2 listener, you can be a good conversationalist even if you give one word answers or nod and shake your head. If you are an A2 listener, you literally cannot have a real conversation. Native speakers have to go down to your level and sit on your "islands" with you. And they will get so bored ...

I agree that B2 is better than A2.

I would like to be able to read Russian novels without a dictionary. I would like to understand more than 90% of what I hear on Russian TV or radio. I would like to speak Russian decently well, ... If I ran into a random educated Russian on the street, I wouldn't need any warm up time, and he would think my Russian was "pretty decent -- good for an American."

... I'm not trying to pass a test so I can emigrate to Russia, or marry a Russian, or get a job with a Russian company, etc.

Those are very clear and specific goals very easy to devise learning plans for. Lucky you.

[Xmmm]

You seem to be coming from an angle where you're pointing out out that I'm not self-consistent. But I agree with the great American thinker Emerson that "a foolish consistency is the hob-goblin of little minds."

I'm not going to defend things I said two years ago if it turns out they were wrong ...

That was me coming from thinking you have the ability to reflect on your learning, if you remember I said that recently. But you seem to think that growing up and thinking differently from when you were a child is bad and needs defending.

It's desirable to be conversational both shall you give up and while you keep advancing, no?

No. It's not desirable. If you are a B2 listener, you can be a good conversationalist even if you give one word answers or nod and shake your head. If you are an A2 listener, you literally cannot have a real conversation. Native speakers have to go down to your level and sit on your "islands" with you. And they will get so bored ...

I agree that B2 is better than A2.

I would like to be able to read Russian novels without a dictionary. I would like to understand more than 90% of what I hear on Russian TV or radio. I would like to speak Russian decently well, ... If I ran into a random educated Russian on the street, I wouldn't need any warm up time, and he would think my Russian was "pretty decent -- good for an American."

... I'm not trying to pass a test so I can emigrate to Russia, or marry a Russian, or get a job with a Russian company, etc.

Those are very clear and specific goals very easy to devise learning plans for. Lucky you.

Why don't you give me a learning plan for Russian?

I know you can't provide one, due to ... inability to articulate it ... or something.

But I found a website called universeofmemory.com that proposes something which sounds sort of similar here: http://www.universeofmemory.com/german- ... -5-months/

Of course the numbers would have to be bumped up for Russian. So if I did 600 hours of flashcards, 200 hours of grammar, and 200 hours of conversation I could be a B2 in Russian now.

If I stuck with that plan, I could have shaved off a few hundred hours. Or else I would have abandoned Russian, which I have not done with the current "having no plan as plan."*



* Jeet Kune Do reference.

[smallwhite]

I've told everyone my learning strategy and I quote it all the time - https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 572#p67642

If you think something you can't and won't do is a plan... maybe I was wrong about you previously.

[Lawyer&Mom]

Mathew had three hours a day to learn German!?! How decadent and delicious.

Seriously, time constraints are real. Embrace any method that helps you keep plugging away with the time you actually have.