Nótaí galaxyrocker - Ancient Celtic Languages, (Old) French, Latin, Old English

[galaxyrocker]

Finally time for another update. I had intentionally taken off studying Pali for the past few weeks because I just couldn't handle the book anymore. I had bought a cheap hardback copy of Warder of Abebooks, but there was just so much wrong with it that I couldn't use it. Tables were formatted wrong, words were misspelled, etc. It had gotten to the point where I kept a PDF of the original up while going through my copy in order to annotate and fix things. I just gave up when it got to the point where I had lines all over 3 tables in a row to try to fix them.

That said, I did buy a new hardback copy of Warder, straight from the PTS this time. The difference in quality is easily noticeable, and everything is formatted correctly, so I'm excited to get back into that. I'll probably go back a chapter or three to refresh my memory of where I was, and it is kind of discouraging to have to stop right when I felt I was getting used to it and getting adjusted to reading, but it's nice to be back. And the review can't harm anything.


I've also been doing more with Irish. I've also decided to make use of my commute to listen to podcasts, so now I'm listening to Irish every day. Once I'm caught up with the current podcast I'm working on, I'll start drawing from RnaG's podcasts, and listening to the ones that I know have Connemara Irish in them. Which is great, as I can hear natural Irish from radio presenters. I'm also writing in Irish pretty regularly, but still need to get back into reading. Might try reading some academic essays and such and see what happens.

[galaxyrocker]

The past few weeks have pretty much been all Irish. I've been regularly listening to a podcast, about one daily, on my commute and can easily listen to Irish-language radio after I catch up on the podcasts. Two of the presenters are native speakers, and the other, while not a native, has good Irish, so it's a joy to listen to. The only downside is that neither of the native speakers are from Connemara, so I don't get the exposure to my preferred dialect, though that'll easily be made up for once I switch to the radio shows. It can also be very interesting, since all three presenters are women, which means they see things from a perspective I don't have, though they make the show accessible to everyone and gender-specific issues rarely come up.

I've also got some more sort stories now, which I like reading more than Irish novels. They're shorter, so even if I don't like it, I can read through them quicker without suffering through a novel I don't like. Though I do still intend to power through some of them, if only to read the 'must-read' list!


As to Pali, I have been slacking a bit. A lot of it is discouragement from my ability to read. I know I'm probably expecting too much of myself, but I was hoping that I'd be able to read along fairly quickly after Warder got to the reading sections. Alas, it wasn't to be. Instead I'm still translating my way through the reading sections, which takes progressively longer as they get longer due to vocabulary constraints and puzzling through all the morphology. It's very demotivating, though I'm going to perservere, best I can, because I do want to be able to read Pali one day (and possibly translate it, so the work is good). For that goal, however, I think I'm going to pick up Gair and Karunatillake's A New Course in Reading Pali and use it to supplement Warder, since it's designed to work as a graded reader, while Warder follows a much more translation-based pedagogy.


Overall, my language learning has been severely hampered by the fact that I have so many varied interests as well. I'm reading Hock's historical linguistics book currently in hand, with something different on my Kindle. After that, I've got Said's Orientalism as well as James's Varieties of Religious Experience: A Study in Human Nature too. Couple that with playing games with friends online and just by myself, working full time, general internet distraction and programming/fiddling with other ideas, and, well, it means I need some discipline!

[MamaPata]

But it makes for a full and interesting life!

[galaxyrocker]

Welp, it's been a while, and a lot has happened.

For starters, I went to Spain and Ireland and did courses. I spent two weeks in Spain at Malaco Instituto in Málaga, Spain. It was a great course, and I would wholly recommend it to everyone. Classes are divided up by CEFRL levels, with three modules in each level for the A levels, and 4 in the Bs. So it goes something like A1.1 > A1.2 > A1.3 > A2.1 > A2.2 > A2.3 > B1.1 > B1.2 > B1.3 > B1.3 > B2.1, etc. They do have classes at the C levels, but I'm not sure how those are divided up.

You're given a placement test on the first Monday you arrive, which determines where you should be. I assumed I would be in the very beginners one, A1.1, even though I had had a course before at uni (it was pass/fail and I was definitely not paying as much attention as I should have). I was surprised, however, when I tested into the A2.2 level! That's basically where they start with doing the past tenses and focusing on more stuff rather than greetings and present tense; so, really, it was perfect for me.

The school itself was great. Classes were conducted solely in Spanish, and often the teachers wouldn't answer you if you mentioned something in another language, unless you were just asking a word (though they often wanted you to use circumlocution instead). I had one teacher that, no matter the language we did, would always call it Catalán if it wasn't Spanish, and comment on how she didn't understand it. Everything we did was solely through Spanish too, including all the tours, trips and events. It was definitely very useful for my listening comprehension, and the teachers and workers were great about adjusting their speed and vocabulary to suit us.

Each course lasts a week, and then there's a mini-test at the end of the mini-levels and a bigger one at the jumps. I did the A2.2 my first week, and passed the mini-test fine at the end of the week. The grammar I knew, but my vocabulary was quite weak. The A2.3 one was a bit more difficult, though I still passed and would have been able to take the B1.1 course if I was staying longer (and I came really close to going back after Ireland!). One nice thing is that they allow you to buy their textbooks as well, so I was still able to buy the B1.1 textbook, which I'll use in conjunction with the Spanish teacher at the school I work with and see if I still can't keep improving.

Málaga itself was great too. But, I mean, what's not to like about a beach city when you have classes 4 hours a day and the rest of the time to yourself? It's quite nice! Even though I probably should've focused on Guatemalan/Puerto Rican Spanish since that's where my students are from, I'm glad I went to Andalusia, and definitely am wanting to go back to the Instituto and Málaga again. It was a great city -- so great, I think I'm going to apply for jobs there!

Then, after leaving Spain, I went to Ireland for a week-long course (and some extra days after). This course was at the Acadamh in Carraroe, offered through NUIG. It was titled Cúrsa sa Saibhreas Teanga (lit "A Course in the Richness of Language") and it was absolutely amazing. It was conducted solely through Irish, and focused on the more esoteric Irish terms, with some of the courses focusing on the Irish as used in sean-nós songs and in the Béaloideas (lit. mouth-knowledge -- folktales, etc) collections. We also had classes on poitín (i.e. Irish moonshine) making and Cré na Cille in the evenings, as well as one day where we went to Ros Muc to visit the Patrick Pearse cottage and Connemara Cultural Museum. We went to the Acadamh in Carna that same day and learned about their work making an archive of Raidió na Gaeilge's works, as well as took a tour of the area through Irish and learned about some of the traditional tales of Iorras Aithneach.

My favourite part, however, was probably the classes we had on Connemara Irish. We talked about how the verbs and nouns worked in the dialect, and how that was different than the standard, etc. We also had two great courses on terms dealing with blessings and curses, as well as birth and death. I've got those in PDF form, and might share some stuff with them later; it's definitely quite interesting and very much about the richness of the language.

In other news, I bought An Béal Beo as well as several other books our teacher told us about for learning about the richness of the language in Connemara. I'll share some out of these when I get them! I also like what Iversen is doing, discussing aspects of Irish grammar in his log, so I might do that as well. I have several semi-essays written up on the use of the word cuid, the copula, and the verbal noun and such. I might post those in my logs too, because they're quite interesting to me.

Anyway, plans for the future are to keep reading with Irish, as well as starting to shadow Mairtín Tom Sheáinín; I need to work on my pronunciation, and he's one of the most prolific speakers of the dialect I want to focus on, so it's a perfect combination to try to work on. I'm also going to do an online diploma course in the native culture through the Acadamh this year. It's entirely in Irish, so it will also help me get some more of the richness of the language, and really push towards a C1 level. I would love to take the C1 test in 2019, though it all depends on if I get a job in Europe or go back to school there, as I'll have started teaching back here unless they change our schedule to start us later (which I hope they do!).

I intend to keep focusing on my Spanish as well, working with their B1.1 course, and maybe seeing if I can get the rest of the B1 courses mailed to me in America if I buy them. Thankfully, I have one class this year that consists solely of Hispanic students, some without much English, and can use that to really improve too. And, as Serpent has shown, fútbol is always nice to watch in Spanish, so that's an added bonus. Until then, I'm going to find some young adult books and read slowly with them to improve my vocabulary, since that's the main thing I'm lacking for my level. Might throw in News in Slow Spanish too, though I've found I can generally make out all the words of even their 'advanced' level; the issue is really vocabulary and then practice using Spanish. But, I know where and how to improve, so I'm going to be doing that.

I also still have interests in Pāli, so might pick that back up much slowly working through several courses on it. And I really want to learn to read German, as I'm kinda an academic at heart and a lot of the earliest work done on Celtic languages was done in German; not to mention the original Gramadach na Gaeilge, which is the better version, is in German (though I'd love to create a print copy that combines both versions). Plus, there's a lot of early work on religious studies and other things in German too. So at least learning to read it would be useful. Which brings back the whole issue of too many choices, not enough time!

[Querneus]

And I really want to learn to read German, as I'm kinda an academic at heart and a lot of the earliest work done on Celtic languages was done in German; not to mention the original Gramadach na Gaeilge, which is the better version, is in German (though I'd love to create a print copy that combines both versions). Plus, there's a lot of early work on religious studies and other things in German too. So at least learning to read it would be useful. Which brings back the whole issue of too many choices, not enough time!

Those damn Germans and their great scholarship! Yeah, I sometimes dream of learning to read German for the same reason. There's a ton of great stuff for Latin/Greek that is only available in German, such as Döderlein's authoritative dictionary of Latin synonyms. The thing is six freaking volumes long!

The most comprehensive work on Latin synonyms by far is Ludwig Döderlein’s monumental Lateinische Synonyme und Etymologieen (1826–1838). In six volumes he unveils the differences between words, giving deeply detailed descriptions while providing his reasoning and arguments for establishing them. Sometimes there is a hint of absurda diligentia which is always amusing. Unfortunately, it is only available in German. (Be the first to learn German through a dictionary of Latin synonyms?)

Source: https://www.latinitium.com/blog/latinsynonyms

And it's hardly the only impressive accomplishment by German scholars in that field. I've been told Schwyzer's book on Greek morphology and Leumann et al.'s work on Latin grammar are more detailed than anything available in English or French.

I'm also very interested in works on religions. What classic works in German are you referring to?

[galaxyrocker]

I'm also very interested in works on religions. What classic works in German are you referring to?

For one, the original version of Gramadach na Gaeilge, which contains much more information that the English one, is only available in German. The other stuff is like Rudolf Thurneysen's A Grammar of Old Irish, which, while translated, is apparently still a bit more in-depth in the original German. Plus, some of the original works on Pāli grammar were originally in German, and not all of them have been translated. Not to mention all the early articles on Celtic Studies, especially as it relates to linguists, that were predominantly done by Germans/Austrians and have seldom been translated. And some early works on religious studies, anthropology and sociology were originally done in German (or French). There's a broad field of stuff that just hasn't been translated, or fully translated yet, and likely never will be as most graduate programs require reading familiarity with the languages!

[Querneus]

And some early works on religious studies, anthropology and sociology were originally done in German (or French). There's a broad field of stuff that just hasn't been translated, or fully translated yet, and likely never will be as most graduate programs require reading familiarity with the languages!

Do you have specific German titles from religious studies or anthropology in mind?

[Teango]

We also had classes on poitín (i.e. Irish moonshine) making and Cré na Cille in the evenings...

Wow, it sounds like you had a blast over there! Good luck with the shadowing - I'm a big fan of the Connemara accent, and Mairtín Tom Sheáinín has a haunting and handsome singing voice.

[galaxyrocker]

Do you have specific German titles from religious studies or anthropology in mind?

None off the top of my head for those subjects; it's mostly for linguistics currently, though I would like to read some of Weber's work in the original language and such.

--------------------------------

So I got my copy of An Béal Beo back when I was in Ireland, and now I'm going to dig some information out of it. It's an interesting book, and definitely a great source for the richness of Irish, even if a lot of the stuff has fallen out of use. For instance, I've learned that, in the 1930s, Dia duit and the response were still more often used as Go mbeannaí Dia dhuit instead, with the author not liking the shortened form. I also learned that you didn't thank someone when they asked you how you were. Instead, your responded and said slán a bheas tú, or 'may you be healthy.' So the conversation would've been: 'Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú?' 'Go maith, slan a bhéas tú.' It's quite interesting to see how that has fallen out of use, likely do to the influence of English.

But, the big thing I want to talk about is star names. One of my interests is (archaeo/ethno) astronomy, and I would love to figure out how the traditional Irish referred to the stars and planets. Unfortunately, there was a familiarity with the Classical tradition in Ireland and, among the literary class, names got borrowed really early. So even some of the earliest Irish manuscripts use those borrowed names. But An Béal Beo gave me some information on some, which I'm going to share below, along with my translation and the relevant notes from the book, i.e. ones that tell more than a source (all formatting the same as the book).

Bealach (nó bóthar) na Bó Finne a thugtar ar an bhfáinne mór réaltaí atá ar an spéir, a bhfuil na mílte milliún réaltóg ann agus a bhfuil an ghrian mar cheann acu. Buaile an Bhodaigh (38) atá ar réalta eile acu. Tá ansin an tSlat is an Bhanlámh: (39) is éard atá inti trí réalta ar gach aon bhealach agus is faide an tSlat ná an Bhanlámh. Tá ceann eile, an Streoillín, a bhfuil go leor réaltóg beag inti i gcosúlacht. Na mionnáin ceann eile.

Seo réalta eile: (40) an taltún. Is mó í ná na réaltaí eile agus tá dhá réalta inti. An béimidín: réalta chasta í agus taispeánann sí go leor solais. Slat an cheannaí: tagann sí amach ionann is chomh luath le réalta an trathnóna. Réalta na gceithre bhfeirsead: tá ceithre réalta inti. Is cosúil gach ceann acu le fearsaid. Tá cheithre bharr amach uirthi mar fhearsaid. An chiarsóg: bíonn sí in aice leis an chamchéachta.

Réalta na Scauibe a thugtar ar réalta sheachránach a thugas í féin chun taispeána scaití agus a imíos arís. Mar gheall ar an eireaball fada a bhíos urithi atá an t-ainm sin urithi. An rétglu mhongach a bhí uirthi sa tSean-Ghaeilge. (41)

An réalta ó thuaidh atá ar an réalta atá ar aghaidh an Mhoil ó Thuaidh, nó i ngar dó. An camchéachta nó an camchéachtach a taispeánans an bealach go dtí é. Tá sé sin ar dhéanamh céachta -- seacht réaltóg atá ann. Deir daoine go bhfuil dhá chamchéachta ann - ceann ar aghadh an chinn eile. Réalta an mhol(?) ceann eile. Maidir leis an gcaor aduaidh, sin é an solas a thagas in áiteacha san oíche ón tuaisceart, i.e. aurora borealis.

Ní réalta i gceart atá réalta na maidine ach pláinéad, i.e. Véineas. Nuair a éiríos sí roimh an ngrian is í réalta na maidine í. Nuair a théas sí faoi i ndiaidh na gréine is í réalta an tráthnóna í: 'chomg lasúnta le réalta an tráthnóna', (42) a thugtar mar shamhail an rud soilseach.

...

Is iontach a lán eolais atá ar na réaltaí ar an saol deiridh seo. Níl comhaireamh ná insint scéil ar na milliúin agus na mílte milliún acu atá ann ná ar an achar uainn atá siad, ná an méid ná an meáchan atá i gcuid acu. Tá cuid acu chomh fada sin uainn go mbíonn an solas féin na milliúin blianta ar an mbealach chugainn uathu, tar éis go dtéann sé os cionn aon mhilliúin déag mílte sa nóiméad. Tá an t-ábhar chomg dlúth, comh pacáilte i gcuid eile is go bhfuil tonna meáchain in oiread silín de cheann amháin acu, i.e. réaltóg Mhannín

...

38) Belt of Orion?
39) Sword of Orion
41) AU, AD 1018, i.e. comet

The big ring of stars in the sky, in which there are thousands of millions or stars of which are sun is one, is called "Way/road of the White Cow The Fold of the Churl (i.e. Orion) is given to another star of them. There is the Rod and the Cubit: there are three stars each way and the rod is longer than the cubit. There's another one, the little long straggly things, in which there's a lot of small stars close together. The pointed rocks are another one.

This is another star, an taltún. It is bigger than the other stars and there are two stars in it. An béimidín: it's a twister star and it shows a lot of light. The rod of the buyer: It comes out almost as early as the evening star. The star of the four spindles: There are four stars in it. Each one of them is similar to a spindle. It has four outer tips like a spindle An chiarsóg: it is near the 'twisted plow'.

The broom's star is what a star that's wandering that shows itself for a minute and leaves again. They were given this name because of the long tail that's on them. rétglu mhongach is what it was called in Old Irish.

The North Star is what the star that's on the face of the North Pole, or near to it, is called. The Twisting Plow or the Twisted Plow is what shows the way to it. It is in the make of a plow -- there are seven stars in it. People say that are two plows, one on the face of the other. The Pole(?) star is another one. Regarding the glowing object from the north, that's the light that ocmes in places in the night from the north, i.e. aurora borealis.

The star of the morning isn't a true star, but a planet, i.e. Venus. When it arises before the sun, it's called the 'star of the morning'. When it sets after the sun it's called the 'star of the evening': "as shining as the evening star" is given as a simile for something bright.

...

It's amazing how much knoweldge there is about the stars in this late time. There isn't counting or the telling of stories on the millions and the thousands of millions that are there, nor on the distance ther are from us, nor on the amount or weight of them. Some of them are so far from us that their light itself takes millions of years to reach us, even after it goes above 11 million miles a minute. The material is so dense, so packed in another of them that there are tonnes of weight in as much as a cherry of one of them, i.e.
Is iontach a lán eolais atá ar na réaltaí ar an saol deiridh seo. Níl comhaireamh ná insint scéil ar na milliúin agus na mílte milliún acu atá ann ná ar an achar uainn atá siad, ná an méid ná an meáchan atá i gcuid acu. Tá cuid acu chomh fada sin uainn go mbíonn an solas féin na milliúin blianta ar an mbealach chugainn uathu, tar éis go dtéann sé os cionn aon mhilliúin déag mílte sa nóiméad. Tá an t-ábhar chomg dlúth, comh pacáilte i gcuid eile is go bhfuil tonna meáchain in oiread silín de cheann amháin acu, i.e. the star of Mainnín.

There's some of them I was unable to translate well, and couldn't exactly place. Thankfully, this just means I'll have to do more research on the star names. I think that the author also used réalta, which he gives for one star, as a loose translation for 'constellation'. I also don't agree with note 38 that Buaile an Bhodaigh is Orion's belt, since that seems to be an Bhanlámh. There's also several others that, while I have translations for them, couldn't place in the sky. Need to work and do more research on that.

Sadly, a lot of these terms have fallen out of use. I asked one of the people of the town, who's known for being knowledgeable and actually composing Irish poems in the old style, if he knew any terms and he said he only knew three: Venus, North Star, and the Milky Way (Bealach an Bó Finne). It's a shame to see these things fall out of use, but, again, how many people nowadays could identify Orion, or Leo, or the Pleiades?

Another fun thing with some star names in it is from Dúchas, which features folklore collections done in the schools in the 30s. It was well ahead of its time, and a lot of information is preserved there. Sadly, not all of them are transcribed (i.e. searchable), but I'm working on that for some of the Irish ones now. Out of the transcribed ones, I did find one with stellar information, collected from one Seán Ó Cúláin in Cashel, Galway:

An Réalt Thuaidh = Pole Star
Buaire na mBodach = an cnuasacht de réaltanna is lugha a chidhtear
An tslat agus an bhannga = ceithre réalta i líne dhíreach
An cam-chéachta = the plough
Bealach Sheáin Uí Mhilleáin = the Milky way
Réalta na scuaibe = comet

He gives some different names for things, and different descriptions of them, but I'd love to study them all in one place together, especially since I'm willing to bet there's still more to be transcribed.

Furthermore, with Irish, I finished the book I was reading Ag Caint Linn Fhéin by Joe Steve Ó Nechtain. It was a collection of essays and it was interesting, even if they seemed a bit rambling at times (which isn't surprising, as most appeared to be talks at first). Now I'm currently working on finishing The Varieties of Religious Experience, as well as working on another Irish book on my Kindle. Really need to make time for reading Spanish, especially since books are so easy to find. There's really no better way for me to practice (except, maybe, to watch fútbol in Spanish), though I do think I'm going to hire a tutor on iTalki, perhaps one from Málaga in Spain. Until then, I'm going to start working on the B1 book (expect another log update soon), as well as reviewing from my college book where I took one semester and Schaum's Outline of Spanish Grammar as well.

[Xenops]

I was poking around on the Internet, and I noted that Harvard is the only U.S. university that has a Celtic department: https://gsas.harvard.edu/programs-of-study/all/celtic-languages-literature

I also thought the list of required language proficiencies (Latin, German, and French) was quite impressive. I guess this is because you mentioned earlier that lots of studies on Celtic languages were done in German? I was also curious as how much material they still have to work through--I guess my impression is that in regards to studying old European manuscripts and languages, it's already been done, and other regions like Meso America have boatloads to scholarship that needs to be done.