Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish and Wanderlust

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galaxyrocker
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish and Wanderlust

Postby galaxyrocker » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:16 am

crush wrote:I'm still struggling with finding things to watch that are interesting. What i ended up doing for a while was watching Japanese dubs of western animated movies i've seen (Kung Fu Panda, Toy Story, etc.) and those are both more comprehensible and more enjoyable for me.


That's a good idea, and I might really try that. I'm sure Avatar, as big as it is, has been dubbed somewhere. It'd be nice to rewatch that and doing in in Japanese before bed to relax could be really useful.


So like you i've turned to books, books are definitely more interesting but getting to the point where it's fun and relaxing to read is a huge hurdle, one i'm still working on. But in general i do enjoy reading in Japanese, it's just not effortless.


Yeah, I really think that's what I'm going to do. Especially since my main goal currently is to be able to read Japanese. It's not likely my Japanese option in the future will come to fruition, so there's really no push for me to be able to produce currently (though of course it might, then my goals change completely!). I think picking up a graded reader aimed at N5 and working on conjunction with Genki/Assimil (which I can take to work and do during my planning periods,something I can't do that with immersion) might truly be the best way for me to go about it all, and then do immersion where I can in the evening.

but overall investing about an hour and a half a day, 20-30 minutes of Anki study and 30-60 minutes of immersion, has taken me pretty far.


It's amazing to me how much it works. Like I've read the stories, and it's just shocking. I wish I could stay focused on stuff long enough. My Anki time has dropped tremendously since New Years, though -- I've often found myself rushing through the cards, not really focused on memory and just hitting 'good'. Probably because I currently have no practical goal and so don't see a reason to focus on them. Maybe a complete 'reset' would be the best, starting once again from the beginning. But I don't really want to waste another three months. I just need to refocus on things and do Anki correctly, then move on to reading and just watch stuff in the evening before bed when I can, without worry about throwing it into Anki necessarily.

I'm open to any tips you have, please! You're doing it in a way that seems to be working well, if a bit slower than Matt suggests with his multiple hours of immersion a day. But, for what you (and I) want, that seems to be the best way. Also any recommendations for things I can immerse in in the car is welcome -- I've an hour and half commute where I do nothing but listen to podcasts. I'd be more than willing to throw a Japanese one or two in.

I'd also appreciate tips specific to getting started to read. That's currently my main goal, as I feel once I can read without translating it to English, or even if I do translate it to English but read with the actual vocab as opposed to just knowing the English translations of the kanji, it'll be easier to go to to listening, especially if I get around to immersing myself at the same time.
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crush
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish and Wanderlust

Postby crush » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:59 am

galaxyrocker wrote:That's a good idea, and I might really try that. I'm sure Avatar, as big as it is, has been dubbed somewhere. It'd be nice to rewatch that and doing in in Japanese before bed to relax could be really useful.

I agree, i've only watched dubbed movies but Avatar would be another great choice for me as i've seen it (several times: in Spanish, Basque, Mandarin, Catalan, and maybe even once in English?) and it's much more enjoyable when you know the plot, you sort of relive it in your head even if you don't understand the actual dialog. That's been my experience, at least.

galaxyrocker wrote:[...]Maybe a complete 'reset' would be the best, starting once again from the beginning. But I don't really want to waste another three months.

How far into it are you? I think a lot of people have mixed feelings on RRTK/RTK. If you've gone through at least half of it, i think you'll be fine moving on to graded readers and the like and picking up kanji one by one as you come across them. The main thing is to get past that cluster of scribbles and begin seeing the parts that make up the whole. I didn't do RTH for Mandarin, i learned characters as i learned vocab. If you're past that "I'm excited to finish this book and get on to real Japanese!" point and just dreading your reviews, you're better off doing something more enjoyable. Replace it with the Tango N5 deck or some other core deck. Matt's new refold.la site has a much friendlier introduction, he's much less hardcore in his recommendations (e.g. it's "ok" to use English subtitles at first and later Japanese subtitles as you get used to the language) and i think those sorts of things are nice quality of life changes.

galaxyrocker wrote:Also any recommendations for things I can immerse in in the car is welcome -- I've an hour and half commute where I do nothing but listen to podcasts. I'd be more than willing to throw a Japanese one or two in.

Definitely check out [url=japanesewithnoriko.com/]Japanese with Noriko[/url], her podcasts are really simple and she speaks slowly and clearly. She also talks about topics that are interesting to language learners, she has episodes on things like the Polyglot Conference, extensive reading, Steve Kaufmann's language learning method, etc. There are also transcripts of each episode (sans the interviews, which are longer and harder to understand anyway) and i used them for a while for sentence mining. Now i mostly just use them on walks or when cooking or whatever. To be honest i don't listen to much else as i've been trying to focus more on comprehensible input and her podcast is generally in the 80-90% range for me.

galaxyrocker wrote:I'd also appreciate tips specific to getting started to read. That's currently my main goal, as I feel once I can read without translating it to English, or even if I do translate it to English but read with the actual vocab as opposed to just knowing the English translations of the kanji, it'll be easier to go to to listening, especially if I get around to immersing myself at the same time.

I don't have a good complete answer as i am still trying to get there, but i can share my thoughts. I started off trying to read manga but i found it boring. Most people online seem to recommend manga to get started, but it's a hard format for me to get into.

Rather than tough it out with that, i switched over to books i'd read in English, namely Harry Potter. The writing in Harry Potter is pretty simple (it's much harder for me in Japanese though ;) ) and the pace is quick. I'm familiar with the story (though i've found much of what i remember being in the books was actually from the movies) and this helps me push through. I've read the first 2 and am about 2/3rds of the way through the third one. It's fun and i don't need to understand 100% to follow the plot.

However, i've been thinking of comprehensible input lately and have been considering picking up some graded readers, namely these: https://omgjapan.com/products/japanese-graded-readers-complete-set. They seem to come highly recommended (from Reddit and other places). When i finish the 3rd book, i've been seriously considering shelling out the cash for those (or perhaps the latter half of the series since the first levels are probably too easy).

The other thing i can recommend for reading is SatoriReader. Not sure if i've recommended that here or not, but they have stories split into small sections (generally 2-5 paragraphs) with contextual translations for each word (so if a word can mean bucket, blue, napkin, or happiness, it'll generally pick the translation(s) that are most appropriate in that context, not always but generally) plus it has a full English translation of every sentence and notes on tough grammar points as well as audio of the entire text which has also been divided sentence by sentence. In my opinion, their stories aren't the most titillating, however there are a few winners and while many may be a bit tame they have a lot of tools/resources to make them more understandable. I will probably come back to their stories at some point as well, the main issue is i found it worked best on my computer. Their phone app wasn't as quick/responsive (from what i remember) and i get distracted too easily at the computer.

I generally prefer reading on my phone. I use an old version of Firefox, actually "Fennec" v68.12.0, which i installed from F-Droid (you need to enable the F-Droid Archive repository in the repository settings). The latest Firefox for Android broke compatibility for most browser extensions and i used Yomichan as a pop-up dictionary for my phone. I was using an older version of Firefox but my phone kept updating it even after turning off auto-updates and after the fourth or fifth time of having to reinstall the old version, set up Yomichan, and load the dictionaries, i switched to Fennec which is not in the Play Store and won't update automatically. If you don't have an Android phone then i guess all of this was probably not that useful to you :P
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galaxyrocker
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish and Wanderlust

Postby galaxyrocker » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:12 am

crush wrote:I agree, i've only watched dubbed movies but Avatar would be another great choice for me as i've seen it (several times: in Spanish, Basque, Mandarin, Catalan, and maybe even once in English?) and it's much more enjoyable when you know the plot, you sort of relive it in your head even if you don't understand the actual dialog. That's been my experience, at least.


Yeah, that's what I'm going to do then. Now time to find it, cause I can easily devote an hour or so to the evening.
How far into it are you? I think a lot of people have mixed feelings on RRTK/RTK. If you've gone through at least half of it, i think you'll be fine moving on to graded readers and the like and picking up kanji one by one as you come across them. The main thing is to get past that cluster of scribbles and begin seeing the parts that make up the whole. I didn't do RTH for Mandarin, i learned characters as i learned vocab. If you're past that "I'm excited to finish this book and get on to real Japanese!" point and just dreading your reviews, you're better off doing something more enjoyable. Replace it with the Tango N5 deck or some other core deck. Matt's new refold.la site has a much friendlier introduction, he's much less hardcore in his recommendations (e.g. it's "ok" to use English subtitles at first and later Japanese subtitles as you get used to the language) and i think those sorts of things are nice quality of life changes.


Nice, I haven't looked at his new site since the spat between them, which is actually when I unsubbed from the Reddit as well. Will have to give it a look.

And, yes, I'm more than halfway done. I'm actually pretty close to the end, and should finish it in a few weeks I feel; can't be that much longer, I've been doing 10 cards a day since September and only missed three days (two over New Year's and once before). I might just go ahead and find the N5 list online and see if I can't acquire some N5 readers. It'd definitely make things much more enjoyable.

Definitely check out [url=japanesewithnoriko.com/]Japanese with Noriko[/url], her podcasts are really simple and she speaks slowly and clearly. She also talks about topics that are interesting to language learners, she has episodes on things like the Polyglot Conference, extensive reading, Steve Kaufmann's language learning method, etc. There are also transcripts of each episode (sans the interviews, which are longer and harder to understand anyway) and i used them for a while for sentence mining. Now i mostly just use them on walks or when cooking or whatever. To be honest i don't listen to much else as i've been trying to focus more on comprehensible input and her podcast is generally in the 80-90% range for me.


Oh that sounds absolutely awesome. I'm going to find them and start listening to a few of them instead of just binging The History of Rome.

I don't have a good complete answer as i am still trying to get there, but i can share my thoughts. I started off trying to read manga but i found it boring. Most people online seem to recommend manga to get started, but it's a hard format for me to get into.

Rather than tough it out with that, i switched over to books i'd read in English, namely Harry Potter. The writing in Harry Potter is pretty simple (it's much harder for me in Japanese though ;) ) and the pace is quick. I'm familiar with the story (though i've found much of what i remember being in the books was actually from the movies) and this helps me push through. I've read the first 2 and am about 2/3rds of the way through the third one. It's fun and i don't need to understand 100% to follow the plot.

However, i've been thinking of comprehensible input lately and have been considering picking up some graded readers, namely these: https://omgjapan.com/products/japanese-graded-readers-complete-set. They seem to come highly recommended (from Reddit and other places). When i finish the 3rd book, i've been seriously considering shelling out the cash for those (or perhaps the latter half of the series since the first levels are probably too easy).

The other thing i can recommend for reading is SatoriReader. Not sure if i've recommended that here or not, but they have stories split into small sections (generally 2-5 paragraphs) with contextual translations for each word (so if a word can mean bucket, blue, napkin, or happiness, it'll generally pick the translation(s) that are most appropriate in that context, not always but generally) plus it has a full English translation of every sentence and notes on tough grammar points as well as audio of the entire text which has also been divided sentence by sentence. In my opinion, their stories aren't the most titillating, however there are a few winners and while many may be a bit tame they have a lot of tools/resources to make them more understandable. I will probably come back to their stories at some point as well, the main issue is i found it worked best on my computer. Their phone app wasn't as quick/responsive (from what i remember) and i get distracted too easily at the computer.


All of that sounds great, I'm definitely going to take a look at those graded readers, especially as I've had some money come my way thanks to various reasons. Especially the graded reader set. I'll just work through the beginner levels and work through Genki with it and watch Avatar and try to make it a habit.

I've actually went ahead and deleted the RRTK Anki deck now. I was dreading it, and just sat there hitting 'good' repeatedly, without actually checking if I understood stuff. I think I'll pick up those graded readers as quick as possible, since I'm worried I'll just distance myself from Japanese altogether, especially since life seems to be pushing me in directions other than Japan for the moment (and the History of Rome podcast has me wanting to learn to read Latin!). Hopefully if I can take Genki with me to work and get in a habit of using it there, then it'd work better, even if I only do a lesson a week.

Also, as I learned from Irish, I think I do better with a structured school environment. Maybe I can somehow recreate that, or even find an online Japanese course, while combining all these other things. We'll see how that goes, as I do want to stick with it.
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crush
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish and Wanderlust

Postby crush » Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:56 pm

galaxyrocker wrote:And, yes, I'm more than halfway done. I'm actually pretty close to the end, and should finish it in a few weeks I feel; can't be that much longer, I've been doing 10 cards a day since September and only missed three days (two over New Year's and once before). I might just go ahead and find the N5 list online and see if I can't acquire some N5 readers. It'd definitely make things much more enjoyable.

You could try going through the Tango N5 deck (it's ~1000 cards) or all or part of one of the core decks (like listed on the Anime Cards site). It'll probably make getting into graded readers easier/more enjoyable + it'll help cement the characters from RRTK.

galaxyrocker wrote:I've actually went ahead and deleted the RRTK Anki deck now. I was dreading it, and just sat there hitting 'good' repeatedly, without actually checking if I understood stuff. I think I'll pick up those graded readers as quick as possible, since I'm worried I'll just distance myself from Japanese altogether, especially since life seems to be pushing me in directions other than Japan for the moment (and the History of Rome podcast has me wanting to learn to read Latin!). Hopefully if I can take Genki with me to work and get in a habit of using it there, then it'd work better, even if I only do a lesson a week.

That sounds like a good plan of attack to me. I bought the full Genk I/II set but never used them. They're still sitting wrapped in plastic in the closet. I read through most of Tae Kim as MIA recommended, but i found the second half to largely be a waste of time. I couldn't remember any of the grammar and felt like it was just going in one ear (or eye?) and out the other. I think i would've been much better off just going through the "Basic Grammar" section (and perhaps part of the "Essential Grammar" section? I can't remember where i started to feel lost) and coming back to the rest later after a few months of immersion and having seen those structures used. Rather than go back through Tae Kim, i went through Japanese Ammo with Misa's absolute beginner playlist after a couple months of immersion and got much more out of it.

Anyway, it seems like the things i'd recommend for you:
(0. Tango N5 or one of those core decks)
1. Graded readers
2. Japanese with Noriko podcast
3. Satori Reader (perhaps after finishing a couple N5 readers)
4. Western cartoons you've seen before (such as Avatar)
5. Some form of casual grammar input, whether via Genki or Tae Kim (though not all of it) or some Japanese youtuber like Japanese Ammo with Misa

It's been a very humbling experience and i'm not sure how much longer i've got until i get to the point where it's like my Spanish (or even Mandarin) where it's no longer "study" but just consuming media, but i at least know if i can keep this up (and it's a very easy routine to keep up) that'll i'll get there eventually, perhaps by the three year mark?
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galaxyrocker
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish and Wanderlust

Postby galaxyrocker » Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:36 pm

crush wrote:Anyway, it seems like the things i'd recommend for you:
(0. Tango N5 or one of those core decks)
1. Graded readers
2. Japanese with Noriko podcast
3. Satori Reader (perhaps after finishing a couple N5 readers)
4. Western cartoons you've seen before (such as Avatar)
5. Some form of casual grammar input, whether via Genki or Tae Kim (though not all of it) or some Japanese youtuber like Japanese Ammo with Misa


I appreciate this a lot. Thanks a million for this. It is nicer to see it distilled down like this. Now to get the Tango N5 book so I can get the deck.
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish and Wanderlust

Postby galaxyrocker » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:00 pm

Well, what I feared happened. I did decent with keeping up with Japanese for a while after I quit the Anki deck, but then slipped off. It's not surprising, but I really need to focus in. Perhaps if I bought some of the physical books, then I would be more willing to do it rather than working with stuff online, though I do have Genki 1 in a physical copy. I've bought a Fujitsu Quaderno A4, so maybe that will help a lot too as I can write on it and it's eink so none of the eye strain that I get from LCD devices longer term, and also none of the distraction from a computer/tablet.

That said, I've started reading through LLPSI somewhat casually. My cousin mentioned wanting to learn the language as she wants to get her PhD in Classics/History eventually (she's only in High School), so I figured I'd work through it with her. I've also been listening to the History of Rome podcast (a little late, I know!) and it had me interested in at least getting to a basic reading level. I'm 5 lessons in on that now. Since I just want reading ability, it doesn't take as much time as Japanese did, which might be why I've stuck with it more.

I'm also trying to really work on my Irish pronunciation. AnLoingseach on Youtube has posted some amazing videos, and I really want to hone in on sounding more native like, as it's by far my weakest area in the language (and, sadly, most input sources are awful and just Anglicized pronunciation, but that's a whole 'nother rant). I'd appreciate any advice from people who've worked on overcoming fossilized language errors, specifically with pronunciation.

That said, I've been accepted to two masters programmes in Ireland -- one in Quantitative Finance, which I've already paid the deposit for as I only had a month to do so and one in Applied Math/Theoretical Physics. I'm going to do some research into the job market and maybe switch my deposit over if I think it's worth it, so anyone who knows anything about the job market there (or Europe more generally, I really just want to stay in Europe afterwards), I'd appreciate advice even if it's not what the forum is for.

Finally, I've got a JET interview too. So that option is still on the table depending on how I do at the interview, which could easily reopen Japanese as a priority for me. Especially as my dad works for a Japanese company and has colleagues over there he could introduce me to so I might could stay and find a job after finishing JET. Really, there's lots of options on the table (too many, I fear!), leading me down many language paths. I do intend to get back to Japanese at some point when I can be more focused, maybe after the Quaderno comes in and I can get physical books, or upload the books to that. Hopefully it happens sooner rather than later.

Sometimes, seeing my struggles here, I really wonder how the hell I ever managed to learn Irish lol. Guess it'll show that for some people class structure really is needed, coupled with lots of immersion.
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crush
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish and Wanderlust

Postby crush » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:41 pm

Hope you do find a language and stick with it, i think most of us here have done the language bouncing thing but taking one language and learning it well is really so rewarding, the hardest part is deciding which one it'll be!
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