Pucko's Japanese language log

[pucko]

I'm brand new to this forum and self learning languages!

My native language is Norwegian but I learned english at a very young age on the effort of my parents supplying me with "english for kids" games as a wee kid, having english as a subject since first grade and having several friends and classmates who had english speaking parents, or knew english because they lived in the states.
It made for the ideal learning environment and by age 11 english clicked for me and I had no problem consuming written english content. By age 14 I was pretty much fluent in writing, speaking, and reading.
(But I'd say the absolute biggest contributor to me learning english was my obsession with Pokemon)
Now I use english on a daily basis on social media or when consuming content like movies, video games, and comics.

Most of the content I consume now is Japanese, I'm a big fan of Manga and have been collecting english translated volumes for 5+ years and it's this interest that made me decide to finally put some effort into learning Japanese. (Anime too, but manga is what I care about the most)
So summer 2017 I started the Duolingo Japanese course which taught me how to read hiragana and the most basic kanji. But Duolingo was a mixed success for me.
It became mostly a chore and a guessing game and zero explainations on grammar and ちゃしょetc. not to mention the very scattered katakana made the experience very frustrating, but despite that I still found it helpful and recently picked it up again to freshen up on simple sentence structures.
(I learned Katakana by doing this drag and drop game daily, haha http://www.csus.edu/indiv/s/sheaa/projects/genki/katakana-timer.html)

After finishing Duolingo my studies hit a bit of a halt but the fact that I now could read kana was helpful and since I follow several japanese artists and animators on twitter + listen to a lot of japanese singers I was still regularly exposed to the language.
I then bought the book Japanese the Manga Way by Wayne P. Lammers which has helped me a lot with understanding grammar.
I also discovered the Kanji iOS app which has been a GREAT resource! It's a dictionary where you can search in either english or japanese, or you can search for a Kanji by drawing it and you can make your own word lists that you can study as flashcards. I use it on a daily basis to look up words and to study them at it has been a great help. My one trouble with it is that its obviously meant for intermediate or higher learners who are learning kanji, even with the example sentences the definitions can feel a bit vague and unhelpful, but thats mostly on me for getting ahead of myself I feel like.

I've listened to most of the episodes japanesepod101 have available for free on their iOS podcast and the NHK world podcast. both have been a helpful extra supplement to my studies.

Recently I bought my first set of Manga in Japanese, Tokimeki Tonight by Koi Ikeno. Its a manga from the 80's aimed at young girls and I've been going through it by first reading a chapter of the Wayne P. Lammers book and when reading looking up and adding, specifically, every word with a kanji i encounter on the Kanji iOS app and later studying them.
I can't say yet how effective this is (I'm far from finished with the first volume) but I know that having context for the words I'm learning is very helpful. But it's very distracting to stop reading to look up every new word but I think each time I finish a volume i will do a second read through where I don't look up anything.

I've also wanted a video game I could play since as a kid that's absolutely what helped me the most with english so I started up Pokemon Ultra Moon and selected Japanese as my language. And so far it has been plenty helpful! I can choose if I want all the text to be in hiragana or if I want it in Kanji, I'm starting with Hiragana.
What I like about learning with a video game is that there is a lot or repeated dialogue and if I missed what a random NPC said I can just talk to them again later. Picking out vocabulary is easy and since I've played Pokemon for 10 years and already played Pokemon Sun I can rely on context and my preexisting knowledge when unsure of what's going on.

Currently my goal is getting to that level I reached with English when I was 11, where my grasp on the language is good enough that written text is accessible to me and I can do simple communication.
When it comes to pronunciation I have little trouble as Norwegian and Japanese has extremely similar readings of the roman alphabet, though I do notice my intonation needs some work. Therefore spoken Japanese is currently not on the top of my priority list, though that may change.

I should note that I have ADHD which affects my ability to sit and work on one thing over a long period of time and my memory. Study techniques that rely simply on memorization is something I find very ineffective and prefer learning through spaced repetition and finding patterns. So I'm looking for Textbooks that either double as or has a solid workbook with good tasks and activities. I don't want to jump into pricey books like Genki before i feel like I'm at least at a lower intermediate level. So until then I'll be checking some of the free resources I've been recommended (NHK World's website, Tae Kim) and maybe some cheaper books aimed at beginners. (Anyone got any experience with Japanese from Zero?)

I'll try and remember to update this whenever I try a new resource or make some progress with Tokimeki Tonight! Advice on resources and study techniques is very appreciated! Thanks for reading!

[pucko]

It's been almost a week and I've reached my first milestone! I finished Tokimeki Tonight volume 1 and is starting my second readthrough!
But before I go deeper into that I just have to do one correction; the app I was talking about is called Japanese, not Kanji!
you can read a bit about in this tofugu article (though i say you should just download it immediately if you haven't already) https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/japanes ... -resources

Getting through Tokimeki Tonight 1 took some time but I finally did it! My vocabulary has already noticeably expanded and my reading comprehension is improving! I'm getting pretty fast at looking up words too! And it really helps that its a very enjoyable and sweet manga
In the beginning I could only do about 10+ pages at once but this weekend I was able to hit 40+. So far in my second no-look-read-through I've been able to recall most of the words and I have a general (though still mostly contextual) understanding of whats happening on the page. So now I can safely say that reading manga and studying the words I pick out will be a helpful and efficient way to expand my vocabulary and improve my reading skills.

I also wanna share how I use the Japanese app. I try to do the flashcards at least once everyday, either when I wake up, is waiting for the train or before I sleep, I always try to go through at least 3 of my lists till I either finish them or feel like I've made some progress, no matter how small.
I also started capping my lists at 100 words, Its easier to manage so even if I get overwhelmed its easier to pick out the 3 specific words I can get out of the way when the list is at that length as opposed to 300+.
Another thing I like about the app is that say, you add the same word to 4 lists, as long as you finish learning it on one of the lists it will be set to learned on all of them which helps when I struggle with certain words.

I'm also almost done with the Wayne P. Lammers book and I'd definitely recommend it. The examples picked out are good and it has a good focus on actual styles of speech (polite, casual, typically feminine and masculine) and the explanations are solid and easy to understand. I'll definitely keep studying the lessons in this book. (It's also relatively cheap!)

I've also looked at several of the free resources I've been recommended and I feel like I can safely say that I am actually much closer to a intermediate level than I initially assumed, so I'm investing in a textbook sooner than planned. BUT I don't think I'll pick Genki! I actually came across a Japanese textbook for high schoolers thats in Norwegian! I can't find any reviews but it has a free additional online resource with tasks and activities, which is what I've been looking for. Cons is that its level 1 only but I still think it'll be a good starting point and if I want to go slightly more in depth I can switch to Genki.

So far I can say this; I've built up a fairly decent vocabulary and have a basic but still minimal grasp on grammar. I struggle with trying to come up with a sentence on my own that sounds right or natural, like I do well on duolingo but I suspect part of that is that I've gotten so used to the typical duolingo structure of sentences.
But if I'm going to (again) pull from my experience learning english I can say that I barely recall actually writing or speaking in english completely on my own before I was 12 and as I mentioned in my previous post I was about 11 when I had that "I get it!" moment with english. So I suspect I have that kinda brain that doesn't even wanna try attempting until its sure it knows what its doing.

In summary: so far its going fairly smoothly, manga is a big motivation and in the moments I feel stuck I know that even if I have to walk slowly I'll eventually reach my destination!
I'll update once I've tried out the textbook or reach another milestone in the manga (or in pokemon)!
Good luck to everyone on their language studies!! がんばろう！

[pucko]

Since two weeks have passed I should probably do an update!

It's not unusual that I say I'm gonna do one thing and up with something else entierly as I did when picking my textbooks. When I looked up if anyone nearby had a secondhand copy of the textbook I was looking for I ended up with Japanese from Zero volumes 1-4 instead! I spotted someone selling their copies of the complete Genki set at a verrry good price but unfortuately it had just been sold, but the seller was so nice, he asked me about my current level and gave me lots of advice based on his own experiences! And he did a really good job selling me in on JfZ so I bought the old set he had for sale.
Currently I'm almost done with the first book and even though I already understand most of the lessons I do find it very helpful, everything is made so easy to understand and the lessons are quick and build on each other effectively! I haven't tried the integrated workbook lessons yet, I'd rather move on than divulging in the topics I already have a fairly good grasp on but as the difficulty level increases I absolutely will take full advantage of what the books offer. I'd say these books are good for younger learners and go well with Duolingo!

Speaking of Duolingo, I found a new free language learning app called Drops. It focuses on learning vocabulary through a 5 minute session of series of very simple minigames. When you get a new word relating to the chosen topic you can choose to memorize it or hide it (hiding it really just speeds up the process bar). You only get the translation for the word when they're first presented so you have to remember them by the image they're attached to.
There's many pros to this app, you can choose to have the words presented with kanji and kana which is ideal for me who's already practicing kanji and is no longer beginner but not yet intermediate. The games are simple and effective and i really like that I can only look up the translation again after I'm done playing!
The cons: you literally only have 5 minutes every 10 hours. This is a free app that offers a paid plan. There's different subscription packs with pay-once solutions. Some functions are also locked unless you are on a paid plan but currently I feel no need for them. But it is a stellar app and I do consider trying a paid month or two at some point.

And some updates on my Manga reading!
The second read-through for volume 1 took some time, one inexplicable ADHD symptom I sometimes have to deal with is my whole body just hating having to reread books, so to make it easier I had to drop the P. Lammers book for a bit and just sit down and get through the reread.
Even if it took some time because my motivation wasn't 100% there for it after all, I did feel like I needed the extra time it took to go through my vocabulary lists before moving on so I got something out of it.
And, well, since I can't really help myself when it comes to manga purchases I bought my second set of manga in Japanese! This time it was Urusei Yatsura by Rumiko Takahashi, another oldie that still holds up. This series has a lot less dialogue than Tokimeki and has furigana on all words so I decided to switch to that for now, I think I will just speed through it with the same technique I've used previously and take it slow with Tokimeki, I'll pick it up again whenever I feel like it and maybe alternate between the two. And, well, I should add that I've actually placed an order for a third set of manga that will arrive soon. I have no idea how it'll fit into my plan because I think I'll be a bit too excited for it to wait however long it will take for me to finish either Tokimeki or UY to pick it up so don't be surprised if I'm suddenly reading three series at once next time I update.

Pokemon has been pushed to the side for a bit but I'll come back to it eventually. Two other games I own that I'm also able to play in Japanese is Undertale and Overwatch. it's a bit difficult with Overwatch since it's a match-based online game so text mostly just flies by and is written either in Kanji or Katakana so getting something out of it will take some time but any exposure is good exposure!

So in summary, I now in addition to three apps I use daily have a set of textbooks with a style of teaching I feel very compatible with on top of the regular exposure to the language. I'm surprised by how smoothly it's going so far, honestly, I get something out of every day I spend studying and I feel like if I keep going at this pace it won't be very long until this whole puzzle gets solved! And I know if it suddenly gets difficult then it just means I'm just getting closer to a breakthrough!

I hope all of you are doing well with your own studies too!! がんばろう！

[pucko]

LONG TIME NO UPDATE

So most of February and early March I was pretty sick with fevers and a sinus infection that really affected my ability concentrate or really do much else but saving energy for other things I had to prioritize over Japanese, so again i hit a slight halt on my studies. I still kept up my streak in Drops and did some Duolingo but couldn't maintain more than a three day streak at most. But I'm all better now and just the past two weeks I've been able to make progress and more clearly sort out and plan how to keep this up going forward.

But first a quick report on my progress; I just finished JtZ 1&2 and started JtZ 3. For the first two I didn't use the workbook section much beyond the example dialogues but for 3 and 4 I've decided to fully utilize what the book has to offer! I get really nervous writing text on my own when I have no one who can check read it for me but the questions are simple and set up so that the answer I give will most likely match the answer keys almost exactly.
In drops I've gotten fairly far and have found it helpful for building a foundation for memorizing and enforcing vocabulary. I'm doing the duolingo course a third time and it just gets easier! I know most of the vocabulary and have a good grasp on sentence particles so most of my mistakes are not the result of wildly guessing but instead just simple careless mistakes. It's def an efficient enforcer but it I just wish there was a mode for it that had more Kanji.

Another resource I discovered and like because its so like the ones I used learning English as a kid is https://www.erin.ne.jp/en/ It got everything from video skits to fully voiced example dialogue (both formal and informal speech!) and accompanying tasks, even simple minigames! I haven't had much time to really use it yet but it is definitely always on the back of my mind!
I also bought a DK visual dictionary! A visual dictionary is in no way a perfect direct alternative to a regular dictionary but its a fun and different way to look up and absorb vocab, not to mention my phone and computer already has access to countless online dictionaries, so buying a whole brick feels kind of pointless at the moment.
Though I wish this dictionary, and Drops too, adapted the content to actually have more words unique or common to Japanese in them because some sections is almost all loanwords that I already know will only be helpful to me if I'm translating something from english.

And bonus: this tumblr has a nice archive of flashcards, words list and verb conjugation charts! http://japanesetest4you.tumblr.com/

I should also mention that third set of manga I mentioned ordering, which was Takehiko Inoue's Slam Dunk! Slam Dunk is a series I already know very well, I bought it in english around this time last year and just fell in love immediately, by the summer I had already read it three times! So when I found out the Japanese Kanzebans had color pages and everything it went right on my wishlist!
Now I've read the first volume of Tokimeki, UY and Slam Dunk, and I've finally decided to make Slam Dunk my first long manga to read in Japanese. It's longer than Tokimeki and UY but it gets less dialogue heavy than both of them as the series goes on and as mentioned I'm already very very familiar with it so I got more context to lean on.
UY also has a pretty pun and wordplay based humor I found out so I feel like I'll get more out of it once I hit a solid lower intermediate level, but given the episodic nature of the chapters I might occasionally pick it up and give it another try.
I also bought one short series that currently has 3 volumes and a few one-volume manga bc all the sets I've bought so far are long so switching to something I can finish faster might be a nice change of pace if I feel overwhelmed.

So that was a quick update and these are my current short term goals!:
- Finish JtZ 3 and 4 (including the workbook sections)
- Have all the skills in Duolingo gold at the same time and keep a 30 day streak
- Either finish or get two thirds into Drops
- Finish Slam Dunk (again)
- Move on to a textbook series like Genki or Minna no Nihongo
- Write a short text or dialogue all on my own
- Complete the JLPT N5/N4 premade vocabulary flashcards on the Japanese iOS app
- Complete the Kanji Kentei level 10/9 premade flashcards on the Japanese iOS app
- Finish the NHK World easy Japanese podcast (and review when necessary)
- (Hopefully) Find a Japanese class (online or in a classroom) and/or a study partner!

Things I know I have to study more:
- Te-form
- Any type of conjugation beyond past-form really

I've made Monday and Wednesday my designated study days.
Weekends are kind of a free space when it comes to actively studying but I always set aside time for reading and reviewing vocabulary, I also want to work on getting more in the habit of opening Erin instead of Youtube or whatever when I'm bored!
I'm taking it kinda slow and easy after a really intense January and a slack February but it definitely did me good to take it easy and let my head sort out what I definitely do know and what I don't. My focus and goals feel clearer and the foundation for this house feels closer to being finished!

[aledda]

Wow, you're doing a great job!

And bonus: this tumblr has a nice archive of flashcards, words list and verb conjugation charts! http://japanesetest4you.tumblr.com/

Thanks for that link! Why did I never see that tumblr? I used to go to http://japanesetest4you.com to do the "practice tests" for JLPT N5 and N4, but it never occurred to me to look for its tumblr.

頑張って!

[Zireael]

Wow, your log is just chock-full of resources! I have no second-hand I could drop at to get some books for my current languages that I don't have books for (Arabic or Japanese), so you're lucky!

I haven't tried reading manga of any sort though, I don't particularly like the genre (and the drawing style).

[pucko]

Wow, you're doing a great job!

And bonus: this tumblr has a nice archive of flashcards, words list and verb conjugation charts! http://japanesetest4you.tumblr.com/

Thanks for that link! Why did I never see that tumblr? I used to go to http://japanesetest4you.com to do the "practice tests" for JLPT N5 and N4, but it never occurred to me to look for its tumblr.

It actually didn't occur to me either to even check their website! These kinds of tests are really helpful I'll try doing one every once in a while! Thank you so much!

[pucko]

Wow, your log is just chock-full of resources! I have no second-hand I could drop at to get some books for my current languages that I don't have books for (Arabic or Japanese), so you're lucky!

I haven't tried reading manga of any sort though, I don't particularly like the genre (and the drawing style).

I def think you should give manga or comics a try! Its easy to disregard them as easy-to-read books but they're more like a tv show or a movie that you consume at your own pace and they often have a higher language level than you'd assume.
And manga especially in the past decade has become just incredibly diverse in genres, art styles, and target audience! You can find a manga about just about anything these days and if you're not interested in fictional stories you can try essay manga! Manga has also personally helped me with my kana reading comprehension and speed because of the furigana in the titles I've read.
Theres also some non-Japanese comics translated to Japanese, you can for example find stuff like Marvel and DC comics translated from english!

And I hope you're able to come across some nicely priced books for Arabic or Japanese soon!! Good luck!!!

[kujichagulia]

おはようございます！ Just wanted to say I'm following your log with interest.

I've never been much of a manga fan - somehow, against all odds, I've reached intermediate level in Japanese without them - but perhaps by reading your log, I can get a better picture of the manga world!

[pucko]

Okay time for an update!

So far I'm making good progress with my short term goals! I've also found some new resources that are working great for me and that has definitely been a huge help!
The first is https://www.wanikani.com/ a Kanji learning site from the people behind Tofugu.com! It teaches you kanji and vocabulary with a spaced repetition system starting from the very basics. What makes the site really stand out is the stellar use of mnemonics that just stick and now that I've hit level 2 its just full throttle, the lessons just don't seem to stop!
It was kind of slow for me at first (which was on me, I kept forgetting to use it) but once i got the first radicals out of the way and figured out that I had to go to the dashboard to get to the new lessons I started to get it! It's also really easy to make careless mistakes when doing the tasks (writing the reading instead of the meaning), which is not a criticism at all, it really keeps me alert and I pay more attention. I definitely recommend it especially if you have a hard time learning kanji the stale textbook way!
It's a free site but once you hit level 4 I hear you have to pay, I personally will consider doing it but that will depend on where I'm at when that day comes.

The other site is quite similar in method as wanikani, its https://bunpro.jp it uses SRS to teach you grammar! It's sorted by JLPT level and has very very short but concise explanations. It doesn't use mnemonics but has wide variety of original example sentences that are voiced, and links to videos, free learning sites, and even points you to which page of genki the particular grammar point is brought up! You can do as many lessons as you want at a time but the reviews, like in wanikani, are locked for a period of time. It's a site thats still in its beta and adding new things, and on May 10th (2018) they will move to a paid subscription model (it will still be available to free users but with limited features). I recommend it and I definitely definitely will do a subscription or pay once solution, this site has been a big help to me as a extra supplement!

There's also been some changes in Duolingo's model. I'm not quite sure what I think of it, I don't quite understand where I have to go for progress now because I have noticed the level has been raised on certain lessons but I don't know which ones and in what order. I'll stick to the bottom two tiers for now and see what happens. Aside than that I'm on a hot streak! Very close to my 30 day goal and I think I might be ambitious enough to aim for 50! Again, I find it to be a great supplement and its given me so many small "oh, I get it!" moments!

Aaaand with Drops I bought the pay once package that gives me unlimited time! They had a spring sale and the offer was too good to pass up! It also gave me access to the tough word dojo feature where I can go through every word I want to memorize!
Though losing the only 5 minutes limit made me more slack about keeping my streak but in exchange I do longer session at a time. I'm still not halfway but I'm not in a hurry, I find it more effective when I pace myself instead of just speeding through.

My biggest challenge is keeping up studies up when my days are busy. This week in particular has been pretty packed and I'm just winded when I get home. If my capacity is low then studying or any slightly demanding tasks become tedious chores that I just can't perform well even if really I want to, and I'm sure everyone can relate to this but with ADHD this need for enough capacity to complete seemingly menial tasks is amplified to a near debilitating degree. But I don't want that to stop me!
There's still low effort ways to absorb at least some new Japanese!
I'm going to watch more subtitled Japanese shows, its low effort and something I can do with friends! I got a bunch of unwatched anime DVDs and there's more Japanese shows on Netflix now so I'm not lacking in content!
The library in the town I work in has a few "learn Japanese" CDs I think so I'm going of borrow one and rip it so I can have it on my phone.

My Japanese from Zero progress has slowed down, as mentioned when my capacity isn't there I just don't get much out of studying if I'm able to do it all.
I'm trying some different study methods too, one method is I start a lesson, read, maybe takes some notes and then I stop right before the workbook section. I will pick it up where I left the next day and try the tasks, expand the notes maybe, and review if necessary. It's a bit difficult to explain this method, it's a Rudolf Steiner patent if I recall. It encourages me to recall and think about what I've just learned much more than with the good ol' "finish a lesson and move on" method
In the Eng to JP dialogue exercise I'm writing down my answers instead of just translating in my head so I can correct myself and see where I made mistakes (and its usually a lot of them).

But while I struggle with writing, reading is getting easier!
It's so fun to re-experience Slam Dunk this way! I love seeing just how different it is from the english version I'm so used to, one small thing that makes it stand out from other manga I've read or tried reading in Japanese is how much it plays with fonts and typesetting! It just makes the dialogue even more lively! Another thing it has made me understand is how distinct and even untranslatable the different manners of speech are. A big chunk of the cast are these rough talking 90's delinquent cool kids so there's lots of お前 and の奴 when they address or talk about each other, one of them even got a osakan dialect! It can get a bit difficult to sort out the sentences since their way of talking is so modified but I own the english translation too so I just check there when I'm completely lost!

So right now I wanna say I have found my tools of choice, my vocabulary cover almost all the basics, I feel very confident in my grasp on basic grammar and now I have to focus my efforts into putting what I learn into practice so I can make more efficient progress!

And I want to thank everyone following this! The feedback I get in likes and replies is so encouraging thank you so much! I hope you're all able to reach your short and long term goals!! Aledda, Zirael, and kujichagulia thank you!! your replies made me so happy!

The progress on my short term goals:
- JfZ 3: lesson 8/13
- Duolingo streak: 21/30 days
- Drops: 43/100 lessons
- Slam Dunk: 3/24 volumes
- JLPT N5 premade wordlist: almost completed!
- Kanji Kentei premade list level 10+9: Completed!
- NHK World podcast: completed!

New goals:
- Complete the Kanji Kentei level 8 premade list
- Find a CD I can rip and put on my phone
- Get started on the JLPT N4 premade wordlist
- Get several JLPT N5 tests on japanesetest4you 100% right

Still working on:
- deciding on textbook, definitely leaning more to Genki (does anyone know if buying Genki 1 is worth it after having done JfZ?)
- writing my own text: I still got LOTS of work to do here
- study partner(?): a friend has told me she wants to get serious with Japanese too, so HOPEFULLY