kanewai's book shelf (current: italian)

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kanewai
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Re: kanewai's book shelf

Postby kanewai » Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:16 pm

StringerBell wrote:What are your thoughts on Gabriele D'Annuzio? I took a tour of his house near Lago di Garda years ago since it's fairly close to where my husband's parents live and from what I've heard he was a fascinating and crazy mofo who wrote some really wild stuff. If I ever get to a point where I'm 100% satisfied with my level of spoken Italian, I'd love to try to read his work. My husband is a huge fan of his writing because he's really into the Decadent movement, which it seems like you might be into, too based on what you wrote in previous posts but I could be wrong.

Since you mentioned reading Italian translations of Latin books, the Satyricon might be a good one to try. We have a copy of that that is Latin on one side and Italian translation on the other so I know it exists. I've heard that it's quite explicit in both languages.
I don't know D'Annuzio - thanks for the lead! I'll see what I can find.

I actually have a copy of the Satyricon in Italian. I think we were going to read it for a book club once, but that plan fell through. If I ever finish the Decameron it is next on my "classic" list.
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Re: kanewai's book shelf

Postby guyome » Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:20 pm

kanewai wrote:- Bocaccio and Ariosto were eye-opening. They were far more raunchy, blasphemous, and fun than anything I'd expect from the medieval era.
Many people have this idea that the Middle Ages were a dark, unsophisticated period, dominated by an all powerful, monolithic, 'Big Brother'-like Church. When I started reading Medieval Latin I quickly saw that things were much, much more complex. The Church was indeed omnipresent, but there was still plenty of room, both inside and outside the Church, for criticism, polemic, raunchy literature, what we'd call blasphemy, etc.

kanewai wrote:And while both wrote from the perspective of an extremely gendered society, the gender roles seem much freer than what you find in English and French literature.
Interesting. Do you mean it as opposed to contemporary (20/21st c.) English and French literature or medieval English and French literature? If the latter, what difference would you see between Boccacio and French fabliaux for instance?
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Re: kanewai's book shelf

Postby kanewai » Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:25 am

guyome wrote:
kanewai wrote:And while both wrote from the perspective of an extremely gendered society, the gender roles seem much freer than what you find in English and French literature.
Interesting. Do you mean it as opposed to contemporary (20/21st c.) English and French literature or medieval English and French literature? If the latter, what difference would you see between Boccaccio and French fabliaux for instance?
The fabliaux are new to me, so it's hard to compare. Boccaccio's stories always have little lessons at the end, but they're not exactly "moral" lessons (usually it's about how you can get out of trouble by being clever.) I am a bit more familiar with the Arthurian legends and the French chansons.

Here's a few examples of what I meant:

One of the knights in Orlando furioso is Bradamante. Her lover, the saracen knight Ruggerio, is kidnapped by the wizard Atalante. She challenges Atalante to a duel and rescues the dude-in-distress.

In another section, one of the princesses (I forget which) is facing the death penalty in Scotland for having an affair. A prince comes to fight for her honor, and challenges her accuser to a duel. The princess is so disgusted by the whole situation that she quits them all, moves to Denmark, and joins a convent.

- What stood out for me about Bradamante is that there was no side commentary along the lines of ooh a female knight, nor any critique of her doing un-womanly things or "acting like a man." She never had to disguise herself as a man to go into battle. Nobody comments on her gender. Bradamante was just a kick-ass warrior. I'm not aware of anyone like her in other stories from the time. Or even now, actually

- The princess story could never be told today in the US. Our modern rules seem to state that the princess must either always find true love, or die a tragic death. You can't end a story with a princess joining a convent.

- ------------------------

Back to Boccaccio. There was one story in the Decameron about a husband and wife who both lust after a hot young man. After a bit of conflict and drama they decide to share him. It's a happy ending for all.

In another story, a husband catches his wife with another man. He turns her over to the authorities.

Her friends and family advise her to flee. She refuses, and is arrested.

She faces the death penalty. At the trial her friends and family advise her to deny everything. Instead she admits everything.

When she takes the stand, she asks her husband if she has ever denied him, or ever left him unsatisfied.

No, he says. I have always been satisfied.

The woman's closing argument revolves around the fact that men are satiated more quickly than women. Women have more to give. She asks: If I cook a big feast and there is food left over, should I throw it away? Or give it to someone who is hungry?

You should give it to someone who is hungry, everyone agrees.

And why not the same with her sexuality? she asks. I have a lover who is hungry. Why can't I share with him, once my husband has had his fill?

- And everyone is so impressed with her reasoning that the law is changed. Women will no longer be punished for adultery, as long as they take care of their husband first, and don't take any money from the lover.

--- On one hand, these stories still reflect a sexist world. But on the other hand, men and women who have guilt-free affairs are never the heroines in American stories. In Boccaccio everyone admires how clever they are.
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Re: kanewai's book shelf

Postby Carmody » Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:20 am

kanewai
A lot of these are award-winners, and I've realized that I can't trust the major Spanish prizes like the Premio Planeto to help pick out books to read.
In France it is widely recognized that the majority of the juries and associations that give prizes are rigged.
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Re: kanewai's book shelf

Postby kanewai » Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:50 am

Carmody wrote:
kanewai
A lot of these are award-winners, and I've realized that I can't trust the major Spanish prizes like the Premio Planeto to help pick out books to read.
In France it is widely recognized that the majority of the juries and associations that give prizes are rigged.
I didn't realize that. I actually like going through the Prix Goncourt nominations, and usually find something good. I never feel like that with the Grand Prix from the Académie française. I feel like the Premio Planeta is more a popularity contest, like a lot of the American awards.

I've never actually gone through the Italian Strega prize. I guess I should do that some day.
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Re: kanewai's book shelf

Postby guyome » Thu Dec 30, 2021 8:55 am

kanewai wrote:Here's a few examples of what I meant: (...)
Thanks, kanewai! Much appreciated. The bits you quote certainly remind me of things that could appear in fabliaux (see for instance Beranger of the Long Ass) but I'm not familiar enough with either Boccaccio or the fabliaux to go much further than that. All I'd say is that the fabliaux or the Roman de Renart certainly represent a different strand of medieval literature than the chansons de geste or the littérature courtoise you mention.
Latin medieval literature also has something to offer in this field and it may come as a surprise to some to see churchmen writing works like the Alda or the Carmina Burana.

If you're interested in reading more Medieval literature, Le Livre de Poche publishes rather inexpensive bilingual pocket editions in the collection Lettres Gothiques.

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Re: kanewai's book shelf

Postby AroAro » Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:26 pm

kanewai wrote:Italian Books, 2014-2021

- Primo Levi's Se questo e un uomo and La tregua are masterpieces.



Thank you, I've always wanted to read these books but somehow, I've been picking other authors over Levi. Your comment seals the deal regarding my next Italian books to read!
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Re: kanewai's book shelf

Postby DaveAgain » Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:48 pm

kanewai wrote:- What stood out for me about Bradamante is that there was no side commentary along the lines of ooh a female knight, nor any critique of her doing un-womanly things or "acting like a man." She never had to disguise herself as a man to go into battle. Nobody comments on her gender. Bradamante was just a kick-ass warrior. I'm not aware of anyone like her in other stories from the time. Or even now, actually
The Greek legends have warrior women, Athena is a Warrior, Artemis (Diana) the goddess of the hunt. In Germanic legends Brunhild is a formidable warrior. I'm sure there are many more.
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Re: kanewai's book shelf

Postby Herodotean » Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:13 pm

DaveAgain wrote:The Greek legends have warrior women, Athena is a Warrior, Artemis (Diana) the goddess of the hunt. In Germanic legends Brunhild is a formidable warrior. I'm sure there are many more.

Athena and Artemis are both goddesses, not mortal women. In the Iliad, for example, goddesses can participate in the fighting, but no mortal woman does. The Amazons are the exception that proves the rule (and at least one Greek writer thought they were actually men who were mistaken for women because they wore long clothing and shaved their beards).
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Re: kanewai's book shelf

Postby reineke » Thu Dec 30, 2021 8:17 pm

“Man’s virtues and woman’s virtues are one and the same”

On the Bravery of Women
Plutarch

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/ ... /home.html

Literature

Camilla - Virgil
https://www.romaoptima.com/roman-empire ... -princess/

Nibelungenlied - Brunhilde

Belphoebe and Britomart in Edmund Spenser's The Faerie Queene

You already mentioned Tasso and Ariosto and their creations. Influenced by Tasso Croatian poet Gundulic included the female warriors Sokolica and Krunoslava in his epic poem Osman.
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