Expug's 2018 Log - Sustainable Dabbling

[neofight78]

One lesson I learned: most app-studying is only worth at the dabbling stage. I don't see a point at keeping doing Mond.ly or Memrise for Hebrew now that I'm learning satisfactorily from my main sources. Clozemaster does the main job of reviewing and learning vocabulary in a graded way, and the time you spend just flipping windows on those other apps is definitely not worth it.

An interesting though, I was wondering if you might expand on it. With all the emphasis of finding dead time, practicing frequently etc, it seems mobile is increasingly a popular choice (or at least that's my perception). Why do you think you get less out of the apps?

[Expugnator]

One lesson I learned: most app-studying is only worth at the dabbling stage. I don't see a point at keeping doing Mond.ly or Memrise for Hebrew now that I'm learning satisfactorily from my main sources. Clozemaster does the main job of reviewing and learning vocabulary in a graded way, and the time you spend just flipping windows on those other apps is definitely not worth it.

An interesting though, I was wondering if you might expand on it. With all the emphasis of finding dead time, practicing frequently etc, it seems mobile is increasingly a popular choice (or at least that's my perception). Why do you think you get less out of the apps?

I have mentioned it before here, so I'm basically repeating myself as I couldn't elaborate on that:

Those apps demand too much attention, ads, streak maintenance. Also, the navigation is too fancy which makes it slow. When I do one Duolingo Hebrew lesson, I spend most time navigating the app, flipping through the screens, waiting for the ads. Actual study is a fraction of the time spent. The picture isn't much different with Mond.ly and Memrise (actually maybe worse with Memrise), even though the ads at those apps are a bit less intrusive. With Clozemaster and its lighter interface, you manage to study much more and lose much less time flipping, even though you still have the gamification issue.

Moreover, if you have access to hours of desktop study (as in my case), launching an app for each study session is rather counterproductive You're better off doing more input sessions, with videos and audiobooks. Or plain textbook study. You won't spend much time flipping from one topic to the other. Even in terms of output, if you have access to a desktop you can also do the output part through attempting to write some paragraphs.

Ditto for hidden moments. I prefer to listen to audiobooks or podcasts when I can really only listen, and even when waiting for the elevator, waiting in line (hidden moments when you can put more attention than when you are jogging, walking, driving) I still believe the cost of launching one different app now and then exceeds that of just doing a more linear, focused activity. With the fancy apps the distractions are within the app itself.

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Accomplished Language Textbook: Russian Grammar Workbook



I'm done with this textbook after a couple of weeks. I might have done too much each day, 10 pages, but I don't overlearn stuff so I don't think I would have learned better if I had limited myself to only one or two units.

It's a good workbook. Explanations with sentences in one page, exercises in the next. The final section has some loose translations (which I found pretty hard, so they work basically as a bilingual reader, but always with the point of illustrating grammatical topics). This textbook doesn't go deeply in morphology, but it covers specific situations that keep causing trouble, like time and date. Needless to say, I prefer it to Routledge's Modern Russian Grammar a practical guide.

As I still have some gaps in morphology, I'm going to proceed now to the famous Russian Grammar Workbook by Terence Wade. This one seems to go deep in morphology with several contrastive fill-in-the-blanks exercises, so maybe that's what I need in order to avoid paying for the Clozemaster grammar decks altogether.

I totally forgot about reading Pedro Páramo yesterday. That's what happens when I don't have time while on the bus at noon. I forget it's part of my schedule, after Indonesian and before the second textbook for Hebrew. I'm not trying to catch up as I believe others at the group reading haven't started yet.

No time for Pedro Páramo today.

[Expugnator]

I have the feeling that I'm having too much Norwegian. And italian. 15-minutes listening-reading Norwegian, then 10 minutes watching, then 25 minutes audiobook in the evening; 30 minutes reading Italian, then 20 minutes audiobook then 5 minutes reading again. This is so because a) Norwegian is my current returning-home audiobook and b) Italian is my current non-fiction reading. I really feel a bit of a saturation about those languages. On the other hand, my Norwegian listening has never been better. Italian is transparent at listening, and what I want now is to gain speed in reading. I've already noticed it in the fiction reading - the non-fiction material is currently harder, contrary to normality, and so I'm finding the fiction a piece of cake. Well, not exactly, but I manage to read it faster now. Training for speed is also important, even though it shouldn't be an obsession. It's remarkable how much I got better at reading Chinese with Pera-pera: at first I had to pause the audio all the time, now I only have a couple of unknown characters each sentence, or even less.

Modern Greek feels heavy. I have trouble learning new vocabulary, much thanks to the spelling. It's not like Russian where most words look alike, it's just that, apart from the etymological discount, I'm not succeeding at learning the roots unique to Greek or apply them in the new words I meet. Even on Clozemaster it's the most tiresome language to study. Nonetheless, I think at the sentence level I'm seeing some improvement.

Learning word families never worked for me, so it isn't different with Indonesian circumfixes. I'd rather focus on one per lesson. Sorry, Assimil.

Back into reading Pedro Páramo. Still having trouble with all the subplots entangled, but language-wise it's pretty straightforward.

My English listening seems also to have upped by one level lately. Not that I'm practicing on purpose, not that I'm challenging myself, on the contrary.

I finished my tasks earlier again, and I had time for some planning, but still no writing. Even so, I'm confident that time will be even better optimized from now on, as I'm trying to solve most activities that are mere time killers, of reduced effectivity. I tend to think that if a novel or even a textbook demands too much word look-ups, then it's not appropriate.

[Expugnator]

Another day with inverted schedule. Trying to do everything on the computer till early in the afternoon, and then reading and Clozemaster.

I just saw a video on the Norsk i Brasil group on FB where people dance forró in Oslo! I can't embed it because it's on FB not YT, but I'm flabbergasted! It's a song I like very much, one of the first I danced when I was still learning. It trigged nostalgic memories.

Here's the link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/182123205137641/permalink/2160628520620423/

Then I searched for Forro i Oslo on Youtube and it turns out it's really becoming popular. It helps that most Scandinavians come to Brazil and buy real state in the Northeast, so it's natural that they become more familiar with Northeast rhythms.

I got an email from the Guaranglish app staff. I had subscribed to it long ago, but never managed to log in. Now I managed to, but nothing loaded yet. I'll give it another try later.

Another day of inverted schedule was a success. I managed to read much better and faster in Russian and German.

[PeterMollenburg]

Hey Expug,

I hope all is well with you...

I have a few quick questions that i'm hoping you can answer when you have time (please, don't interrupt your learning time).
(i'm entirely happy with succinct replies it that suits).


1. How much time on average do you spend on each language per day? (not each individual language, but averaged out, would it work out to 15 minutes per day on each language for example?).

2. How many languages do you usually study in each day?

3. the answer to question 1 x the answer to question 2 = totally time per day, right? (which is?)

4. How many years do your foresee yourself studying this way? (do you even have an end date?).

5. Do you find time for other things quite easily?

6. Is there time during your job to study?

Kind regards,
PM

[Expugnator]

@PM I have thought about your questioning, but I ran out of the time for posting today (I know, I was lazy to postpone it so I could post alongside with one update to my log).

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The weekend wasn't much productive language-wise, just enough to keep my Clozemaster streak. I'm having good results with the languages where I'm doing text input on the 2nd level (500 most common words). The first level is just too easy and repetitive, but the 2nd one is already just ahead of my comfort zone in Russian and German (maybe even too easy yet, but I'm really going to try harder now that I know it works). I'm impressed with Greek: I'm on level 3 there, because the Greek deck is shorter, and I'm finding it easier than the 2nd one, which shows my evolution in between. I hold my opinion that too long decks are counterproductive - like the Mandarin and Russian ones - because you get stuck. I do the recognition part - multiple choice - on random mode, but when it comes to text input I know I'm not working the most effective way.

I prepared my snacks for the week on Sunday morning so no Italian podcast )i's too noisy). I didn't do any additional reading. On Saturday I gave two classes and was exhausted when I went to the Polyglot Meetup, but I still managed some English, French and Spanish. I hadn't felt that mentally exhausted for a long time, as I'm not used to stretching myself so hard at the weekend. I kept playing with the girls all day long, and even found time for renewing my gym playlist - a bit disappointed with the French parades, too much hip-hop that is linear and much less pop/electropop. Also gathered material for the week, at least the series I watch in Georgian. I need to do more reading that is part of my study routine.

The Guaranglish app is functional. So far it's mostly about thematic vocabulary learning in Guarani, but I only checked the first level; the other ones are locked and I'm not planning on learning the language actively now.

It's been over 3 years now that I'm learning Estonian (I started on May 2015. if I recall correctly). I'm happy with my results so far. I might be B1ish passive, A2 active, and this averaging 25 minutes a day over some 200 week days a year = 15000 minutes /60 = 250 hours. That might sound too many hours for too low result, but it's better than I had with Georgian and Russian. It's even reflecting on Finnish which I'm just dabbling on through Clozemaster. I don't think I'm that far from being able to read in Estonian and actually follow a story, or to watch TV with subtitles, and Estonian is an opaque language after all. What makes me optimist is that I suspect the results for the languages I started later, which are Modern Greek, Hebrew and Indonesian, are even better, which means I learned to learn a bit more effectively. I'm no longer reluctant to put on hold resources that way off the n+1 input. I'm not on a race for learning but I want to reap the benefits of the effort I invest, and it's good to acknowledge that I've been doing some things better.

[Expugnator]

Hey Expug,

I hope all is well with you...

I have a few quick questions that i'm hoping you can answer when you have time (please, don't interrupt your learning time).
(i'm entirely happy with succinct replies it that suits).

I was really looking forward to providing a long reply! Ok, I'll do it step-by-step then.

1. How much time on average do you spend on each language per day? (not each individual language, but averaged out, would it work out to 15 minutes per day on each language for example?).

Short answer:
Average = 31 min

Long answer:
Spanish: 30 + 10 +2 = 42
Papiamento: 10 + 5 = 15
Estonian: 14 + 10 + 2 = 26
Russian: 30 + 10 + 10 + 4 = 54
Mandarin: 4+ 20 + 5 + 10 = 39
Norwegian: 10 + 15 + 22 + 4 = 51
French: 10 + 2 = 12
Italian: 20 + 3 + 2 = 25
Georgian: 10 + 2 + 10 + 20 = 42
German: 20 + 10 + 4 = 34
Modern Greek: 10 + 10 + 4 = 24
Hebrew: 10 + 15 + 2 = 27
Indonesian: 10 + 2 = 12

2. How many languages do you usually study in each day?

Thirteen, 13.
(Is this number bringing me bad omen? I should probably add a new one.)

3. the answer to question 1 x the answer to question 2 = totally time per day, right? (which is?)

403 minutes, or nearly 7 hours of net time (not counting breaks or the time I have to switch from one material to another).

4. How many years do your foresee yourself studying this way? (do you even have an end date?).

I don't foresee an end to language learning. I might get to a point where I don't feel like adding opaque languages anymore and all gets down to maintenance, on my rhythm. As for now, while I'm still building on important languages, it will also depend on my work situation. If I can't do any study, then I might reorganize my schedule to a minimum of 3 hours a day, and 5 languages. I think my goal of becoming a hyperpolyglot is on its way, even if I have to undergo a reduction from 7 to 3 net study hours a day.

5. Do you find time for other things quite easily?

No but language learning doesn't interfere with other things. Besides working full time, I also teach morning and evening, do some volunteering and go to the gym daily. I'm usually ready for having 7:30, 8:00 hours of sleep every week day but I have to wake up in the night or wake up earlier to take care of the kids (today I woke up at 4h20 and didn't manage to fall asleep again).

6. Is there time during your job to study?

There is, due to its specificities. Most of my time is waiting time, while tenths of files are processed and uploaded.

Hope it answers most of your questions, but feel free to ask anytime!

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Finished L'Auberge Espagnole trilogy with Casse-tête chinois. I liked the second one better than the last one, but I like it how the series present the cities so deeply, in a way that is closer to how real people live there.

I'm 23% into the new novel and I'm finally warming up for reading better in Georgian again, getting to understand longer periods. I'd have preferred a real page turner at this stage, but these are harder to find in Georgian translation.

Finished Va dove ti porta il cuore, by Susanna Tamaro. A different read, sort of an autobiography, whether true or not. It was hard to follow at the beginning, but my Italian listening skills seem to have improved remarkably. Next one, already started, is Testimonie Inconsapevole, by Gianrico Carofiglio. It's the first in Avvocato Gubbio's series. The volume is much lower and yet I'm able to follow the story (which I had trouble to follow when I listened to volume 3, Raggionevoli Dubbi). That's quite an achievement. I have a lot to improve on unstructured audio and slang, though, as the podcast is far from being transparent.

I'm impressed at how Routledge Hebrew manages to keep it simple, accessible and didactical. Routledge itself should learn from it, and apply it to other languages instead of insisting with the enhanced phrasebook which is the Colloquial series. A book like Routledge Hebrew would particularly suit Georgian.

I'm reading Pedro Páramo as planned, and I'm not following the plot, as expected. I'm terrible at any more complex plots, regardless of the language.

[PeterMollenburg]

Thank you Expug for taking the time to provide such a detailed answer. Exactly what I was chasing. To see how a very accomplished learner progresses with short snippets of time in over ten languages. Well done! I really hope you achieve your goal(s). We’ll perhaps talk again some time, in the meantime... happy learning!

[neofight78]

I have mentioned it before here, so I'm basically repeating myself as I couldn't elaborate on that...

Thanks for taking the time to repeat! It's an interesting perspective, I guess there is a difference between the needs of more casual learners and those who are more serious / have more time.

[Expugnator]

Wednesdays tend to be more chaotic. I came in prepared to work overtime, so things got derailed a bit. The holidays topic also came up - always complicated to schedule those férias, with so many people involved - and it's one issue that easily tears out my concentration.

Language Transfer Greek has a good deal of repetition, to the extent we might think we're listening to a lesson again even though we're not. It does the job, as they do it for reviewing quickly while introducing a new verbal form (actually now it occurs that the course is heavily focused on verbal morphology).

Indonesian is still hard. I'm using only Assimil, which has a rather abrupt learning curve, and I don't have any other material that could help me at this stage. I think I had better review the first level on Clozemaster once again, even though everything is "mastered". With Hebrew I have two graded resources - Assimil, which is steep as well, and Routledge Hebrew, which goes much more smoothly and so works on consolidating Assimil.

Schedule taken care of, and I have some time to kill. I'm not giving my best on Greek, Indonesian or Hebrew, not simply because they are newer in my list and also opaque languages, but also because they are at the end of the schedule. I noticed that with Estonian when I pulled it to be the first resource in my day, and it remains so after the textbook phase, with the soap opera. I might do some rearranging as well when I finish the Russian grammar book I'm currently studying.