Spoon's 2018 attempt at success [ ES | IT | EO | DE? ] + Greek FLC

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DaveBee
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Re: Spoon's 2018 attempt at success [ ES | IT | EO | DE? ]

Postby DaveBee » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:31 am

Spoonary wrote: It's time to reduce the amount of Youtube I watch, to free up some time for watching/listening to more 'worthwhile' media, such as TV shows, documentaries and podcasts. I need to do this for all of my languages really, but English should also be a priority.

I'm sure a lot if you feel the absolute opposite to what I'm about to say, but sometimes I find myself thinking I'm maybe wasting my time doing things in other languages, when I could be enriching my experience with my own native language by learning more words, listening, reading and pushing myself to write and speak about more varied/complex topics. *sigh* I dunno...

*I know that the idea of 'quality' could start a whole other discussion, but please allow me to throw the word around here.
I remember my english literature teacher telling us that we'd get more from reading Paradise Lost if we could appreciate the latin roots of the words, so L2s aren't entirely an anti-english study :-) I take your point though.

Prof Arguelles (?) mentioned in one of his speeches a reading timetable he follows, a month reading one language, a week reading a related etc. Looking at english alongside any existing L2 work would certainly be worth while.
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Re: Spoon's 2018 attempt at success [ ES | IT | EO | DE? ]

Postby WalkingAlone13 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:35 am

Hey there, Spoonary. Long time reader and fan here, despite my lack of presence in your log.

I did not realise how similar our language learning paths were, so reading about what really got you started was very enlightening, and somehow contemporaneously exciting. I can see how it can be easy to put English to one side, oddly, despite all the stigma the English language receives on this website, it really isn't presented as having even a semblance of importance in England, for example. Even at college and degree level, it's never really expressed that English is actually quite pleasant. We are often made to feel guilty for liking it, I mean, there are numerous threads on this forum, that by now I will not even open. I will see by the title how particular members will be drawn to them and express how evil English is.

Anyway, my main reason for posting here: You can treat English equally as you would your other languages. Time management is always a bit "eww", but just like you would split your time between Spanish, Italian, German, etc. You could just treat it as any of the other languages you study and allot your time accordingly. I initially felt quite silly for doing so, as, like you, and despite my current abysmal level of writing, I studied English to the upper levels - but for a few years now I have been subscribed to various "word of the day" sites for English. Merriam Webster is a particularly good example. Do I see a lot of words I already know? Of course. However, I do get to see a lot of words in the bottom 20% or so, and examples of usage, etc. that I would otherwise never see? Hell yes.

I also write a lot of aphorisms as anyone unfortunate enough to have me as a friend on Facebook can likely attest to. I do so in such a way to include any newly acquired vocabulary or any that I feel I do not use often enough.

Quiz shows are immensely enjoyable to me and although I watch a few in other languages, nothing quite compares to the likes of 8 out of 10 cats does countdown, or would I lie to you. I mention these as you expressed your love of comedy, here you get the perfect mix of both. Okay, would I lie to you fails on the educational front, but hey, Rob Brydon and David Mitchell. 8 out of 10 cats, although not entirely "educational" does still come up with the odd interesting word from dictionary corner, and conundrums are a lot of fun for thinking on your feet to retrieve those words. I am also a bit of a sucker for university challenge and frequently attempt to keep my knowledge from stagnating. There are some great Youtube channels such as Crashcourse, which If you watch the English literature course, it's actually designed and presented by John Green, the guy that wrote "The fault in our stars". If you also have a penchant for medical jargon, then channels such as Khanacademy and the accompanying website, which uses the Youtube videos anyway, would be another perfect way to make sure you are encountering that particular lexis.

I do not remember if you have a Kindle or similar device, but even without one can create a Kindle account and use it on a mobile device. The great thing there is that the classics are often ridiculously cheap. With the classics I do love to have a hard copy for display purposes if nothing else, they are usually so nicely bound. However, with complete works by some of the literary giants barely costing a pound in some cases, it would almost be remiss not to purchase these.

I did have a point somewhere, which I'll go with as being, the sacrifice need not be quite as big as you are potentially thinking it to be. I fit all of these little snippets in over the week and still have ample time to fit my other languages in. Granted, you are much busier than I, but you manage with your current languages.

I am also not so secretly hoping you continue your German. Although I am not very vocal, in as vocal as one can be through the medium of text, I always frequent the German logs on here and am always cheering alongside those that are on that particular journey.

Anywho, I wish you all the best with all of your languages. :)
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Re: Spoon's 2018 attempt at success [ ES | IT | EO | DE? ]

Postby iguanamon » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:53 pm

Spoonary wrote:...I am writing this week's post in English because it just would not feel right to try to cover this topic in another language. ...
I am a native English speaker and I live my life in English. As I work in customer service, I speak, hear, read and write a LOT of English every day. The majority of the media I consume is in English and I chat to my friends on social media in English, for the most part. So I consume and produce a fair amount of English on a daily basis. The thing is, I want more, and I feel like I should be doing more with English.
I'm sure a lot if you feel the absolute opposite to what I'm about to say, but sometimes I find myself thinking I'm maybe wasting my time doing things in other languages, when I could be enriching my experience with my own native language by learning more words, listening, reading and pushing myself to write and speak about more varied/complex topics. *sigh* I dunno... *I know that the idea of 'quality' could start a whole other discussion, but please allow me to throw the word around here.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to also improve your command of, and quality of what you consume of, our native language. You are English and you're lucky because you have the BBC at your fingertips, both radio and TV. As an American, I had listened to the World Service programs for years (pre-internet) as a kid. When I lived in England as an adult, I loved Radio 4 and all the quality programs on the BBC. (In the US, PBS and NPR are also quite worthy; Canada's CBC too). In school I learned to appreciate Charles Dickens, Shakespeare, Mark Twain, Hemingway, Emily Bronte, Tennyson, Dylan Thomas, Chinua Achebe, VS Naipaul, the list goes on. We are blessed as English-speakers with a wealth of great literature.

The passage I quoted form your text was because, I had seen somewhere here on the forum about reading Douglas Adams "Hitchhikers Guide" in an L2. Don't get me wrong, I read translated from English books in L2. I'm reading "Orgulho e preconceito/Orgullo y prejuicio/Pride and Prejudice" by Jane Austen right now in both Spanish and Portuguese, but it does lose something in the translation. One thing I've come away with is an appreciation for what a great writer Ms. Austen was. I love Douglas Adams' writing in English. I consider him to be a modern master and so quintessentially English that I can't imagine reading his work in L2! Dickens "A Christmas Carol" is, in my opinion, one of the most beautifully written works I've ever read in English.
Jane Austen- Pride and Prejudice wrote:She grew absolutely ashamed of herself. – Of neither Darcy nor Wickham could she think, without feeling that she had been blind, partial, prejudiced, absurd.
‘How despicably I have acted!; she cried. – ‘I, who have prided myself on my discernment! – I, who have valued myself on my abilities! Who have often disdained the generous candour of my sister, and gratified my vanity, in useless or blameable distrust! – How humiliating is this discovery! – Yet, how just a humiliation! – Had I been in love, I could not have been more wretchedly blind! But vanity, not love, has been my folly. – Pleased with the preference of one, and offended by the neglect of the other, on the very beginning of our acquiantence, I have courted prepossession and ignorance, and driven reason away, where either were concerned. ...

Charles Dickens- A Christmas Carol wrote:“External heat and cold had little influence on Scrooge. No warmth could warm, nor wintry weather chill him. No wind that blew was bitterer than he, no falling snow was more intent upon its purpose, no pelting rain less open to entreaty. Foul weather didn’t know where to have him. The heaviest rain, and snow, and hail, and sleet could boast of the advantage over him in only one respect. They often ‘came down’ handsomely, and Scrooge never did.

Mark Twain- Life on the Mississippi wrote: Now when I had mastered the language of this water and had come to know every trifling feature that bordered the great river as familiarly as I knew the letters of the alphabet, I had made a valuable acquisition. But I had lost something, too. I had lost something which could never be restored to me while I lived. All the grace, the beauty, the poetry had gone out of the majestic river! I still keep in mind a certain wonderful sunset which I witnessed when steamboating was new to me. A broad expanse of the river was turned to blood; in the middle distance the red hue brightened into gold, through which a solitary log came floating, black and conspicuous; in one place a long, slanting mark lay sparkling upon the water; in another the surface was broken by boiling, tumbling rings, that were as many-tinted as an opal; where the ruddy flush was faintest, was a smooth spot that was covered with graceful circles and radiating lines, ever so delicately traced; the shore on our left was densely wooded, and the sombre shadow that fell from this forest was broken in one place by a long, ruffled trail that shone like silver; and high above the forest wall a clean-stemmed dead tree waved a single leafy bough that glowed like a flame in the unobstructed splendor that was flowing from the sun.

So yes, I understand. One of the traps we fall into here as language-learners is that we know how to learn a second language and we see everyone else doing that here, some with multiple languages, that we often feel pressure to learn even more languages. I have learned multiple languages myself but I don't feel the need to learn a language just because I can. There has to be something more in it for me.

We sometimes forget that one of the points of mastering a language is enjoyment and there's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying our native language too. We do have great literature, theater and poetry as well, just the same as in any big language. I'll put Dickens, Twain, Hemingway and Shakespeare up against any of the other greats in any language.
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Re: Spoon's 2018 attempt at success [ ES | IT | EO | DE? ]

Postby Spoonary » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:29 pm

Thanks for the input, guys. I think you've all hit the nail on the head there: I need to consider English one of my languages, one of the things I make time for. Although the novelty of new, foreign languages is always attractive, I really do think the English language is amazing, and my practical, native fluency, is just not enough any more. WalkingAlone is right though; it all comes down to that pesky time management that I hate and struggle with so much. :lol:

Thank you, Iguanamon, for sharing those snippets of great English-language literature. I must admit that, despite having a background in the study of English literature, I have only read a handful of classics, and I have barely scratched the surface of Shakespeare's back catalogue. Indeed, all three of the texts you quoted are still on my 'to-read' shelf on Goodreads. One day... :roll:

WalkingAlone13 wrote:Hey there, Spoonary. Long time reader and fan here, despite my lack of presence in your log.

Why hello there, WalkingAlone13. Thank you for stopping by and writing such a lovely post. If you'll excuse my language, English is bloody brilliant, and it's about time we all admitted that. :)

You know, I used to enjoy watching quiz shows as well, although I hardly ever knew any of the answers :oops: Just reading '8 out of 10 cats' and 'Would I lie to you?' bring back memories of sitting with my mother in the evening, watching channel 4 and laughing away at all those comedy greats. I have just renewed my TV license actually; I think it's time to hook my TV up again for more than just Youtube and Netflix. I know there's educational material to find on Youtube as well, of course (and I used to watch the vlogbrothers back in the day, so I know John Green - DFTBA anyone?), but I feel I need to move away from that platform, lest I continue to while away hours and hours of my life watching people play video games for a living :roll:

I do have a kindle, yeah, and I already have loads of classics downloaded on there (although I agree, those new penguin classics are pretty snappy-looking). I just need to get back into the habit of reading regularly in the morning and/or evening, as at the moment I fall asleep whenever I try.

WalkingAlone13 wrote:I am also not so secretly hoping you continue your German. Although I am not very vocal, in as vocal as one can be through the medium of text, I always frequent the German logs on here and am always cheering alongside those that are on that particular journey.

Oh I will, don't you worry. I definitely still want to learn German. Besides, the teensy bits I do know are always floating around in my brain somewhere just lately, so it's definitely not forgotten. As soon as I have organised my life enough to squeeze in some active German learning, I'll be writing here about it, so you'll be able to cheer me on as well. I think I'm going to pop over to your log now and read all about your German journey, for a bit of inspiration. :)
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Re: Spoon's 2018 attempt at success [ ES | IT | EO | DE? ]

Postby MamaPata » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:47 am

I definitely know that feeling! I don't want to improve my English as such (though I would vaguely like to improve my writing), but there are a lot of Anglophone books and films I want to read/watch in English. Currently my reading is mostly in English and I'm always really torn about it. It's hard to find the right balance. I'll look forward to hearing how it goes for you!

(I second the University Challenge rec btw.)
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Re: Spoon's 2018 attempt at success [ ES | IT | EO | DE? ]

Postby Elenia » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:24 pm

MamaPata wrote:I definitely know that feeling! I don't want to improve my English as such (though I would vaguely like to improve my writing), but there are a lot of Anglophone books and films I want to read/watch in English. Currently my reading is mostly in English and I'm always really torn about it. It's hard to find the right balance. I'll look forward to hearing how it goes for you!

(I second the University Challenge rec btw.)


I don't sacrifice my English reading for TL reading. In fact, I think I only read one or two TL books last year? I don't even mind. I read for my pleasure. Sometimes that means binge reading Swedish YA, sometimes that means unhinging my metaphorical jaw and swallowing a English series of debatable quality whole.

iguanamon wrote:The passage I quoted form your text was because, I had seen somewhere here on the forum about reading Douglas Adams "Hitchhikers Guide" in an L2. Don't get me wrong, I read translated from English books in L2. I'm reading "Orgulho e preconceito/Orgullo y prejuicio/Pride and Prejudice" by Jane Austen right now in both Spanish and Portuguese, but it does lose something in the translation. One thing I've come away with is an appreciation for what a great writer Ms. Austen was. I love Douglas Adams' writing in English. I consider him to be a modern master and so quintessentially English that I can't imagine reading his work in L2!


That was me, in MamaPata's log. I think the difference is fundamentally about how we think of translation. Sure things may be lost (both figuratively and literally), but I think it's really cool to see the choices translators make, and how they render those things that seem quintessentially English. I collect Pride and Prejudice and Ann Leckie's Imperial Radch series in other languages because I love them so much. I've never felt, reading them, that they lose in general in translation - although I have noted that the French translation of Leckie's books literally have sentences and passages missing. I experienced the reverse when I read a translation of Stanislaw Lem's Cyberiad in English. Of course I can't read the original Polish (yet!) but I was awestruck by how amazing the translator was, and I felt a huge desire to see the source text he was working with. I didn't once get that uncomfortable feeling of 'this probably makes more sense in Polish' or 'I'm missing on some culture thing here', although a large part of that is probably that it's Sci-Fi. By the way, that book is definitely worth a read. Lem had some really great ideas, and the word play is wonderful and wonderfully rendered :)
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Re: Spoon's 2018 attempt at success [ ES | IT | EO | DE? ]

Postby DaveBee » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:58 pm

Elenia wrote:I collect Pride and Prejudice and Ann Leckie's Imperial Radch series in other languages because I love them so much. I've never felt, reading them, that they lose in general in translation
But surely when you know a book very well, you're often just prompting memory when reading. So any deficiencies in the translation, or your understanding of it, are washed away by recall of the original.
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Re: Spoon's 2018 attempt at success [ ES | IT | EO | DE? ]

Postby Brun Ugle » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:23 pm

DaveBee wrote:
Elenia wrote:I collect Pride and Prejudice and Ann Leckie's Imperial Radch series in other languages because I love them so much. I've never felt, reading them, that they lose in general in translation
But surely when you know a book very well, you're often just prompting memory when reading. So any deficiencies in the translation, or your understanding of it, are washed away by recall of the original.

You still notice them though. Probably even more so. I'm currently going through Harry Potter in Spanish and I notice every change and every mistake. Sometimes it is clear that the translator misunderstood something and I think, "Oh no! Those poor Spanish speakers don't know what really happened."
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Re: Spoon's 2018 attempt at success [ ES | IT | EO | DE? ]

Postby Spoonary » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:00 am

Thank you for your posts everyone. There has been some really interesting discussion going on on my log just lately, and it's really nice to see. :)

Personally, I avoid reading translations if I can read the original. Or rather, I prefer to read the original the first time, but if I then fancy reading the book again, I sometimes use that as a good excuse to read something in one of my TLs and pick up a translation.

…...............
Now, I'm going to be doing a lot of work on my Spanish this weekend, but I don't really want to say any more than that just yet, because I don't want to jinx anything or have a written record of anything that can and may be used against me. 8-) Sorry to be so cryptic but I'm very excited about this thing I'm doing which may just change my life, so I had to write something. I'll be sure to let you all know what's going on when I can, as I think you may be interested. :D
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Re: Spoon's 2018 attempt at success [ ES | IT | EO | DE? ]

Postby MamaPata » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:18 am

Dramatic! We're all in suspense now!
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