Radioclare's 2018 log (Croatian/Russian)

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Re: Radioclare's 2018 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby vonPeterhof » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:20 pm

Radioclare wrote:Throughout the course of the chapter, the book uses three different words for holidays and I don't feel like it defines them very clearly:

отпуск - leave, holiday
каникулы - vacation
отдых - rest, holiday

Are all these words interchangeable? Or is there some nuance in meaning? As far I'm concerned a holiday is a holiday, a vacation is when an American has a holiday and leave is something you might get from the army...

MamaPata is essentially right about каникулы. While it has other uses (e.g. налоговые каникулы for, I believe, "tax holiday"), its primary use is for the regular school holidays. Отдых is the general word for "rest", but can also be used in the sense of "holiday". На отдыхе is a common way of saying "on holiday": for instance you can say "Она на отдыхе в Сочи" to make it clear that the person is taking a holiday in Sochi (as opposed to visiting the city for work or a family emergency). Отпуск is the usual word for "leave of absence". By itself it doesn't distinguish between paid or unpaid leave, but it is distinguished from regular days off (выходные) and national holidays (государственные праздники; праздник by itself can also refer to festivities that aren't formally recognized as grounds for letting employees take a day off). Отпуск is also generally not used for "leave" as in leave from the army; the words used in that case are побывка and увольнение (the latter word has a radically different meaning in civilian employment - "firing").
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Re: Radioclare's 2018 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Chung » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:24 pm

vonPeterhof wrote:
Radioclare wrote:Throughout the course of the chapter, the book uses three different words for holidays and I don't feel like it defines them very clearly:

отпуск - leave, holiday
каникулы - vacation
отдых - rest, holiday

Are all these words interchangeable? Or is there some nuance in meaning? As far I'm concerned a holiday is a holiday, a vacation is when an American has a holiday and leave is something you might get from the army...

MamaPata is essentially right about каникулы. While it has other uses (e.g. налоговые каникулы for, I believe, "tax holiday"), its primary use is for the regular school holidays. Отдых is the general word for "rest", but can also be used in the sense of "holiday". На отдыхе is a common way of saying "on holiday": for instance you can say "Она на отдыхе в Сочи" to make it clear that the person is taking a holiday in Sochi (as opposed to visiting the city for work or a family emergency). Отпуск is the usual word for "leave of absence". By itself it doesn't distinguish between paid or unpaid leave, but it is distinguished from regular days off (выходные) and national holidays (государственные праздники; праздник by itself can also refer to festivities that aren't formally recognized as grounds for letting employees take a day off). Отпуск is also generally not used for "leave" as in leave from the army; the words used in that case are побывка and увольнение (the latter word has a radically different meaning in civilian employment - "firing").


On the subject of synonyms, you may at some point as a more advanced student reach (or bug your boyfriend) for Using Russian Synonyms published by Oxford University Press, or a similar guide to synonyms. I have the OUP volumes for French and German, and have mentioned the German version and similar works here. One thing that I don't like about most thesauri is that the compilers often get lazy by listing just synonyms without usage notes, indications on register or example sentences. Books such as "Using Russian Synonyms" are a nice improvment.

A monolingual dictionary may also be worth looking into since their entries usually contain an example sentence. I don't have a suggestion for a Russian one but maybe Serpent and vonPeterhof do.

***

Of course, you can ask about such things piecemeal on a forum, as you did with "holidays", but sometimes it makes for geeky but informative reading on the way to work by leafing through "Using Russian Synonyms" and seeing that when translating "car", for example, you have a choice of автомобиль, драндулет, колëса, машина or тачка.

Without getting into the example sentences, the nuances according to the dictionary are

автомобиль - "motor vehicle; car" (neutral, fairly standard)
драндулет - "old or dilapidated vehicle" (colloquial/facetious - If it were up to me, I'd rather translate this as "jalopy" or "s**tbox")
колëса "car, transport, wheels" (youth slang or colloquial)
машина "car" (neutral, but in more casual speech)
тачка "car, taxi" (slang)
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Re: Radioclare's 2018 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Radioclare » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:22 pm

Thank you MamaPata and vonPeterhof for the explanations :) That makes loads more sense now!

I feel like the book should really have tried to explain the words more clearly, because presumably I would sound pretty silly if I started talking about "каникулы" when I meant "отпуск" :(

It's really interesting that "отпуск" is not the right word to use in the context of the army, because I think that in Croatian the slightly similar word "otpust" does have something to do with dismissal from the army. I'm sure Daniel will correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like I've read a book where a character had a "nečasan otpust" and I understood it from the context to mean something like "dishonourable discharge". It sounds like "праздник" in Russian is very similar in meaning to "praznik" in Croatian though.

MamaPata - would you recommend Colloquial Russian 2? I have a Schaum's grammar from my failed Russian attempt in 2011 but I've banned myself from using another book until I make more progress with the ones I've already started. It tempts me every time I see it on my shelf though because I think I'm getting to the stage where drills would be useful.

And thank you for the book recommendation, Chung. It looks really cool and I might put it on my wishlist for Christmas in the hope that by then my Russian will be good enough for me to make the most of it :)
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Re: Radioclare's 2018 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby MamaPata » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:08 pm

Ahhh, I admit, I didn't buy it. :oops: I raced through it, but I found it pretty useful and made a memrise course with the vocab. It's very much text based, which I thought was useful and worthwhile. But not having bought it, it's hard to say if I would recommend it as a purchase. Certainly I know of two courses (class based) that use it so it's definitely well regarded! I wouldn't recommend taking it particularly seriously though.
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Re: Radioclare's 2018 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Ogrim » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:11 am

Radioclare wrote:MamaPata - would you recommend Colloquial Russian 2? I have a Schaum's grammar from my failed Russian attempt in 2011 but I've banned myself from using another book until I make more progress with the ones I've already started. It tempts me every time I see it on my shelf though because I think I'm getting to the stage where drills would be useful.


I did go through Colloquial Russian 2 as well, and I found it to be a good "bridge" between course material and native material. It starts with a quite thorough review of grammar, including exercises, which were very useful to revise things like case endings, verb conjugations etc. Then it consists mainly of texts on various topics such as transport, tourism, sport, mass media etc. It brings you closer to reading "real stuff", as the texts are mostly slight adaptations of articles from newspapers and magazines. Just be aware that, unless they have made a complete update, which I don't think they have, the texts are from the late 1990s and early "noughties" (it was first published in 2003), so the reality they describe is that of Russia few years after the collapse of the Soviet Union, not Russia as it is today.

At the time I used the book, the audio was not available for free on their website, and I did not spend money on buying the CDs, as I did not like the audio for their Russian 1 course. Later I've listened to the audio, and it is very much like the one for the first course book. Not all texts have been recorded, and you have the obnoxious English voice giving you instructions for the exercises. Still, the texts and dialogues that are recorded are good and useful.
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Re: Radioclare's 2018 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Radioclare » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:59 pm

The rest of this week hasn't been quite as productive for language learning as I had hoped.

Croatian
Writing is going well, in terms of quantity at least. I've written 8,035 words so far this year, which is already more words than I wrote last year. I'm still a bit unsure about how much this is helping me though. I think what I'm doing is "extensive writing", if that exists as a concept, by which I mean that because I'm mostly doing it while standing on a train, the main aim is just to write something and I am not looking up any words or constructions that I don't know. If I don't know something, I'm just making my best guess. I think what I have done in the past when I've joined the Output Challenge is more like "intensive writing", ie. looking up words and/or googling phrases I'm not sure of to see whether I'm expressing something in a natural way. The former technique is definitely resulting in more output, but the latter technique has probably taught me more. So I'm not sure where I'm going to go with this.

I watched some more episodes of 'Zora Dubrovačka' on Friday night and the goat storyline has come to a conclusion (it didn't end well for the goat). I've only racked up 582 minutes of Croatian TV so far this year, so not Super Challenge standard.

Russian
This afternoon I finally managed to get through all the new vocabulary from Chapter 8 of Colloquial Russian on Memrise. I collected 135 new words from this chapter, which feels like a lot. It's more than any of the other chapters so far anyway.

The bad news is that I have missed a few days of Assimil now (have got up to the end of chapter 38) and I am now failing with my goal of getting through one chapter of Colloquial Russian per week because I'm still stuck somewhere in the middle of chapter 8 (more precisely, I'm stuck at the point where it casually suggested that I go away and memorise all the adjective endings).

In fairness to Colloquial Russian, I've been at home all weekend and so I could have got to the end of the chapter if I hadn't devoted all of my time to a) work for the Esperanto charity, because we have a trustee meeting in a couple of weeks and b) planning holidays for 2018. One of these tasks was infinitely more enjoyable than the other :lol:

Holiday plans
I'm going to Iceland :D It's not until September, but I am incredibly excited. You would not believe the amount of hours that I have spent on planning an itinerary, though. I wanted to do a trip around the ring road (a circular route which goes around a substantial part of the country) but I wasn't convinced I could afford it. The cheapest way to go to Iceland is to camp, but I've never camped for longer than 3 - 4 days and I didn't think I was hardy enough to camp in Icelandic weather. A potential compromise is to rent a campervan instead, the most basic of which pretty much consist of a van with a mattress in the back. If you go for the smallest possible van, it does seem quite affordable, because you're getting your transport and all your accommodation in one price. But having spent some time looking at photos and videos of van interiors, my boyfriend and I came to the conclusion that we might kill one another if we had to spend a week or more in such a confined space. Of course, the more you pay the bigger van you can have, but the next van size up was more than I felt like I could justify spending. So, that only left the option of renting a car and staying in hotels, an option which I had initially ruled out because I didn't think there would be any type of accommodation in Iceland that I could afford. But, after about 12 hours of research this weekend (really!), I have found some establishments on the more hostelly end of the hotel spectrum, the price of which when added to the price of a rental car actually comes out at only slightly more than the coffin-sized camper van and considerably less than the larger vans. And, having spent so many hours planning the potential itinerary and finding places to stay, it would have taken more self control than I possess to not go ahead and actually book....

Have I mentioned that I'm quite excited? :lol: Sadly I don't have time to learn Icelandic, so my ambitions will be constrained to learning the polite basics and how to pronounce the names of the places I want to see. And possibly watching 'Trapped' for the third time :)

If that wasn't enough excitement for one weekend, I have also booked a trip to the Azores in June. I have done absolutely zero research on the Azores (mainly due to the ridiculous amount of time I have spent researching Iceland) so I am taking my boyfriend on trust with this when he says it's going to be nice. If anyone is aware that the Azores are home to man-eating spiders or any such, now would be a really bad time to tell me, because I've already paid for the flights.

I will be able to spend a couple of days in Lisbon before flying home at the end of the week and I am already fantasising about custard tarts. I really want to take the opportunity to go back to Sintra, because one of my biggest travel regrets is being too tight to pay for a ticket to go inside the Palácio da Pena. If you haven't been there it's hard to imagine what a poor decision this was, but we must have spent about an hour hiking up a very steep path to get to this amazingly beautiful palace (and when I stay steep, I actually had to stop at one point because I was a bit concerned about the heart rate my Fitbit was showing :lol:)... and then when we got there we only bought a ticket to go into the grounds. I mean, the grounds are beautiful in themselves and obviously you could see the outside of the palace, but as soon as we got up close to it I really wished we had tickets to go inside. So yes, I definitely want to do that this year :)

Anyway, I also don't have time to learn Portuguese, but my boyfriend got an awful lot of Portuguese books for Christmas, so this motivation for him to put them to good use. And actually I enjoyed Portugal so much last year, that if I did ever try to learn a Romance language it might be Portuguese :)

If this hasn't sufficiently distracted you from my lack of progress with Colloquial Russian, here is my new favourite Croatian song of the week: "Zašto ne pokažemo djeci" by Radio Aktiv.

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Re: Radioclare's 2018 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Brun Ugle » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:53 am

For Americans, holidays and vacation are two entirely different things. A holiday is a “holy day”, though not necessarily religious. It can be a day that is historically special for that country, like a Constitution Day or Independence Day. Vacation comes from vacare, to be idle, and means you have free from work or school. So you can have a vacation without a holiday and you can have a holiday and still have to go to work. Leave is when you are given special permission to not go to work for some other reason, ie not a vacation and not a sick day.
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Re: Radioclare's 2018 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Radioclare » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:53 am

Brun Ugle wrote:For Americans, holidays and vacation are two entirely different things. A holiday is a “holy day”, though not necessarily religious. It can be a day that is historically special for that country, like a Constitution Day or Independence Day. Vacation comes from vacare, to be idle, and means you have free from work or school. So you can have a vacation without a holiday and you can have a holiday and still have to go to work. Leave is when you are given special permission to not go to work for some other reason, ie not a vacation and not a sick day.


Thank you for explaining, Brun Ugle - I didn't know that :)
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Re: Radioclare's 2018 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby aravinda » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:50 am

Ogrim wrote:I did go through Colloquial Russian 2 as well, and I found it to be a good "bridge" between course material and native material. It starts with a quite thorough review of grammar, including exercises, which were very useful to revise things like case endings, verb conjugations etc. Then it consists mainly of texts on various topics such as transport, tourism, sport, mass media etc. It brings you closer to reading "real stuff", as the texts are mostly slight adaptations of articles from newspapers and magazines. Just be aware that, unless they have made a complete update, which I don't think they have, the texts are from the late 1990s and early "noughties" (it was first published in 2003), so the reality they describe is that of Russia few years after the collapse of the Soviet Union, not Russia as it is today.

At the time I used the book, the audio was not available for free on their website, and I did not spend money on buying the CDs, as I did not like the audio for their Russian 1 course. Later I've listened to the audio, and it is very much like the one for the first course book. Not all texts have been recorded, and you have the obnoxious English voice giving you instructions for the exercises. Still, the texts and dialogues that are recorded are good and useful.

This is just to note that a new edition is coming out in May. Routledge website mentions "new audio material including authentic and up-to-date video and audio excerpts"(emphasis mine). It's quite possible the word "video" was added by mistake.
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Re: Radioclare's 2018 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Radioclare » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:59 pm

Thank you for the tip-off, aravinda - I think the new edition is going to be on my Christmas list :)

My favourite new word in Russian this week is бумага which to me sounds like it should be the name for a WWE wrestler, but is actually the word for paper :lol: At least I am not likely to forget it.

I have been enjoying the songs posted in the Russian thread recently and also the ones Expugnator posted last week. Especially the one that was set to scenes from the Twilight films; it refreshed my motivation for learning Russian because if only I can get to a good enough standard I have an educational reason to read the entire Twilight series again and maybe re-watch all the films with Russian subtitles and listen to the audiobooks too :D If I had thought this through properly I would have made sure I got to a good enough standard in Russian to sign up for the Super Challenge in May, but sadly I'm not going to achieve that this time around.

I have made a definite decision that I'm not going to continue writing 150 words in Croatian every day. It's partly a shame because I've got really good at doing it every day (I've only missed two days in 2018), but there is no point continuing with something that isn't teaching me anything. I think it would be much better if I committed to writing something in Croatian once a week, choosing a more challenging topic and actually looking up words and grammar I'm not confident in. I'm not sure quite how I'm going to enforce this on myself, because I find sticking to a weekly goal is harder than a daily one, but we shall see!

I like the idea of the Free and Legal Challenge but I can't think of a language it would make sense for me to start learning right now. My long term goal is probably to start learning Slovene within the next three years, but I think the only thing that could possibly screw up my brain more right now would be trying to introduce another Slavic language to the mix. I did have a quick look and found a free course for Slovene for future reference though :)
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