Gary's TACtivation

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garyb
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Re: Gary's TACtivation

Postby garyb » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:15 pm

tastyonions wrote:Hey, there are some Italian people who use a Frenchish R!


That's a fair point. However I'm sure I've heard a few people saying things along the lines of "not all Italians roll their Rs, so that means learners don't need to worry about it!", which is faulty logic. Okay, you might get away with a French R (although the R moscia doesn't really have the harsh guttural quality of stronger French Rs), but I don't think it means you can just use any old sound, like an English R. If I pronounce my name the English way, Italians (and most people who don't speak English natively) think it's "Galy".

I've not heard much Spanish with French accents yet, but I'd imagine the R would be confusingly similar to the jota?
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Re: Gary's TACtivation

Postby tastyonions » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:28 pm

garyb wrote:I've not heard much Spanish with French accents yet, but I'd imagine the R would be confusingly similar to the jota?

Yes. I listened to a Colombian radio show the other week and one of the guests was a professor from France. He had been living in the country for some time and so spoke pretty fluently, but he had kept his French R. I had a harder time understanding him than I did the native speakers.
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Re: Gary's TACtivation

Postby arthaey » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:24 pm

My French roommate has been living in Mexico for years, but still has a strong accent around her R's. Also her "a" is off, so her "tanto" sounds more like "tonto" which always makes me do a mental double-take. ;)
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Re: Gary's TACtivation

Postby garyb » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:19 pm

Siccome ogni tanto il mio log va nella direzione di racconti delle mie esperienze negative con i madrelingua, sarebbe ora che scrivessi di altre più positive. Venerdì sera ne ho avute. Ero libero e non troppo stanco, quindi mi sono finalmente deciso ad andare all'evento di cui ho parlato un po' di tempo fa, l'"International Social Network". Speravo di poter esercitare le mie lingue e anche conoscere un po' di gente.

Since every so often my log goes in the direction of accounts of my negative experiences with native speakers, it would be about time I wrote about more positive ones. I had some on Friday evening. I was free and not too tired, so I finally made up my mind to go to the event that I spoke about a little while ago, the "International Social Network". I was hoping to be able to practise my languages and also meet some people.

All'inizio si parlava inglese; c'erano italiani ma anche persone di altri paese e non volevo escluderle dalla conversazione. Ho dovuto aspettare il momento giusto, e nel mentre ho avuto delle conversazioni piacevoli con persone di svariati paesi: un malese, una coppia indiana, una slovena, alcuni polacchi. Poi è arrivato il momento, c'era un gruppo di solo italiani e mi ci sono unito. E tutto è andato bene, mi parlavano come se fossi "uno di loro" (cioè, non italiano, ma qualcuno che parla la stessa lingua) e non mi hanno nemmeno chiesto perché parlo italiano! Insomma tutto è sembrato naturale e non ho avuto nessuno dei problemi di cui parlavo negli ultimi messaggi.

At first everyone was speaking English; there were Italians but also people from other countries and I didn't want to exclude them from the conversation. I had to wait for the right moment, and in the meantime I had some pleasant conversations with people from various countries: a Malaysian, an Indian couple, a Slovenian, some Poles. Then the moment came, there was a group of just Italians and I joined. And all went well, they were speaking to me as if I were "one of them" (that is, not Italian, but someone who speaks the same language) and they didn't even ask me why I speak Italian! Overall it all felt natural and I didn't have any of the problems I've spoken about in my last posts.

Un po' più tardi ho incontrato un messicano e ho parlato spagnolo con lui e con un'italiana che ne parlava un po'. Ho fatto meno fatica che mai con i verbi, soprattutto con quel mio preferito, il passato remoto... nonostante non li avessi esercitati per niente dall'ultima volta che ho parlato! Nelle ultime settimane ho solo ascoltato e letto. Mi diffido sempre di chi dice che l'input basta per imparare la grammatica, ma a quanto pare aiuta, almeno a rafforzare ciò che conosco ma ancora non uso bene. Dunque, forse se continuo così la mia conoscenza dei verbi migliorerà poco a poco, e se nel corso dell'anno prossimo faccio anche gli esercizi FSI, metteranno il turbo al mio apprendimento. Il messicano mi ha fatto complimenti per il mio spagnolo, a parte la mia pronuncia europea ;).

A bit later I met a Mexican guy and I spoke Spanish with him and with an Italian girl who spoke a bit of it. I struggled less than ever with the verbs, especially with my favourite, the simple past... despite not having practised them at all since the last time I spoke! In the last few weeks I've only listened and read. I never trust those who say that input is enough to learn grammar, but it sure seems to help, at least to reinforce what I know but don't yet use well. So, maybe if I continue like this my knowledge of the verbs will gradually improve, and if I also do the FSI exercises over the next year they'll turbo-charge my learning. The Mexican complimented my Spanish, apart from my European pronunciation ;).

L'italiana mi ha detto che ha un'amica francese e forse la prossima volta potremo parlare francese con lei. Ah, il famoso fantomatico amico di amico francese, quante volte l'ho sentito! Ci crederò quando lo vedrò.

The Italian also said she had a French friend and maybe the next time we'll be able to speak French with her. Ah, the famous elusive French friend of a friend, how many times I've heard that one! I'll believe it when I see it.
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Re: Gary's TACtivation

Postby Serpent » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:54 pm

garyb wrote:I never trust those who say that input is enough to learn grammar,
Hehe. To be fair I always point out that you also need an understanding of linguistics, or SRS, or a related language. Ideally all three :D In Spanish I SRS'ed very little but used stuff like GLOSS, Destinos and lyricstraining :)
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Re: Gary's TACtivation

Postby garyb » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:05 pm

Serpent wrote:
garyb wrote:I never trust those who say that input is enough to learn grammar,
Hehe. To be fair I always point out that you also need an understanding of linguistics, or SRS, or a related language. Ideally all three :D In Spanish I SRS'ed very little but used stuff like GLOSS, Destinos and lyricstraining :)


To be fair I was maybe making a straw-man argument there; I think that most people encourage a combination of input and some kind of study/practise and it's just a question of when and how much for each. It's a bit like the "I learned just by watching films" people, when you look at what they really did there always turns out to be a lot more involved than just films. In my case I'm quite sure the related languages are helping since the logic and the forms are similar.
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Re: Gary's TACtivation

Postby garyb » Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:42 pm

I had a break from the forum over the holidays, and now that I'm back it's time to tie things up for my 2015 log.

To be honest it's ending on a bit of a negative note. I feel like I'm losing interest in Italian and in languages in general. I'm pouring in all this time and effort and then not getting much out of it and not having much to show for it. I'm not a language nerd at heart, the study in itself isn't enough to keep me motivated, I need real-life reasons to learn. I don't have many Italian friends any more, and those I do have speak great English.

Perhaps the "final straw" experience is that one of my flatmate's friends, another Italian, is staying with us for a few weeks. Whenever I walk into the room they switch to English, and justifiably so: my B2 Italian is no match for their C2 English. Past the initial annoyance of "but I wanted to practise Italian!" I realise that I'm actually happy with this, because I can express myself so much better in my native language. Why deliberately hold myself back socially? I'd love to speak Italian well enough to be able to express myself fully without hesitation, but if I can already achieve exactly the same thing with the same people in English then what's the point?

Last night I was hanging out with them and another of their friends, bringing it up to three Italians, which as I've noted before is the "magic number" so we were speaking Italian. Once the "I'm getting language practice" novelty wore off I just felt frustrated at the limit the language was placing on my ability to contribue to conversations, make jokes, and express my personality.

On top of that there's the whole receptive versus productive frustration: I can understand this language so well, I watch films without subtitles and I follow group conversations effortlessly, so why do I struggle so much to use it? And finding opportunities to speak can almost become an obsession and stress me out; I'm not happy with the way I've put the cart before the horse in that respect and gone to meetup events to basically use people for language practice. I started learning Italian because I hung around with Italians, but at some point that became reversed and I was hanging around with Italians just because I was learning Italian.

This is also making me reluctant to get serious about Spanish. I'm worried it'll go the same way as French and Italian: I'll invest a few years into studying it, become almost fluent, then I'll realise that I don't actually have much use or need for it and lose motivation. In the last couple of weeks I've been spending less and less time on languages and more and more on my real passion, music, which I'm finding to be a more rewarding hobby.

Of course this is simply perfectionism and unrealistic expectations. These people have been studying English since they were kids, and living here for several years. One works in a hotel and the other in a shop, speaking to customers in English all day, five or six days a week. One is studying at university here. They have English-speaking friends and partners. And even with their level I think their personality shines through just a little more fully when they speak their native language. I've been learning Italian in my limited spare time for a few years and spent a grand total of around four weeks in Italy. Comparing my level to theirs is ridiculous, and what I've achieved given my situation is impressive really. What I'm trying to do, converse with groups of native speakers, is hard and even being able to do it in a limited capacity is an achievement.

So I'm not sure whether to continue or to take a break from the whole languages thing. My plan for now is to just do what I feel like when I feel like it and take it easy. If that's music or languages or something else then so be it. Anyway...

End-of-year summary

My goal for the year was to increase my active (i.e., productive) ability in French and Italian. What actually happened was that I quit French (again) and I saw improvements in my Italian but not quite as much as I had hoped for, and I'm considering quitting that too. I don't see this is a failure, I just see it as evidence of the absurdity of trying to make plans and goals for a period as long as a year. It's a positive outcome: instead of sticking stubbornly to plans, I've let my situation and my feelings guide me.

I'm not the biggest fan of Benny Lewis any more, but one point he makes that I still agree with is that many learners claim that their goal is to speak, yet their activities are not geared towards speaking. I fell into this trap at times. I read lots of books in Italian, including quite literary ones. This was enjoyable but it didn't help my speaking much. As Benny says, nothing wrong with enjoying the non-spoken aspects of the language, just don't kid yourself about it. I generally do reading during times when working on speaking or listening isn't practical, like lunch break at work, but I still could have done more writing or chosen books that had more conversational language. This isn't a regret, reading great books is a joy, but I accept that it's been to the detriment of goal number one.

I'm still unsure about the great dilemma of the right balance between input and output: whether I should be consuming lots of TV and films, or focusing more on conversations, lessons, writing, and self-talk. But what is perhaps more important is to be present and focused in whatever activity I do. I've half-watched too many films while messing around online, done too much uncommitted through-the-motions output work, and been quite unassertive and lazy about taking advantage of opportunities like living with a native Italian speaker.

However it's worth mentioning that it's not been a great year for sleep and mental health. That's been a big part of the lack of focus, and another reason to not be disappointed and to be happy with the not-insignificant progress I have made.

Overall I've had a great year, in spite of the negative things I've mentioned. I've learnt a lot about myself as a language learner and a person, and begun to overcome some obstacles to speaking like perfectionism and lack of confidence. I had some great experiences when travelling in France, Italy, and Spain, thanks to my languages. In fact, writing this has made me more optimistic about my future studies. I have a more realistic perspective on goals and some good ideas about how to continue, should I choose to do so. I'll probably be back soon enough with a 2016 log...
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Re: Gary's TACtivation

Postby tomgosse » Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:44 pm

garyb wrote:Once the "I'm getting language practice" novelty wore off I just felt frustrated at the limit the language was placing on my ability to contribue to conversations, make jokes, and express my personality.

I know the frustration. In English, I am quite articulate, but in French I can only make baby sentences. Sometimes it makes me feel like a total idiot. I have no advice, but I can empathize with you.
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Re: Gary's TACtivation

Postby Spoonary » Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:58 pm

I, for one, would be sad to see you go, Gary. Your experiences and thorough reflections are always a joy to read and I often go away having learned a thing or two or with something new to ponder. However, I completely understand all of your reasons for considering putting languages aside and focussing on your true passion, music. There is nothing wrong with just returning to your target languages to polish them when you go on holiday again (although even that is not compulsory, obviously ;) ). I don't think this forum is going anywhere soon so it'll be here if you just want to pop back every now and again to give us a life update and satisfy our curiosity. :)
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Re: Gary's TACtivation

Postby iguanamon » Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:00 pm

garyb wrote:... I feel like I'm losing interest in Italian and in languages in general. I'm pouring in all this time and effort and then not getting much out of it and not having much to show for it. ... Of course this is simply perfectionism and unrealistic expectations. These people have been studying English since they were kids, and living here for several years. One works in a hotel and the other in a shop, speaking to customers in English all day, five or six days a week. One is studying at university here. They have English-speaking friends and partners. And even with their level I think their personality shines through just a little more fully when they speak their native language. I've been learning Italian in my limited spare time for a few years and spent a grand total of around four weeks in Italy. Comparing my level to theirs is ridiculous, and what I've achieved given my situation is impressive really. What I'm trying to do, converse with groups of native speakers, is hard and even being able to do it in a limited capacity is an achievement. ...


This has been coming for a long time, Gary. My observation is that it's your expectations that are making you unhappy. I live in a place where English is the dominant language too. Yes, I speak Spanish. I have Spanish-speaking neighbors and get to speak it regularly but because we all speak English well, we often switch to it for certain topics, because we are also English-speakers living in an English-speaking country. I find that when I travel in Spanish-speaking countries or help recently arrived Spanish-speaking immigrants here I have much more opportunity to use what I have. I accept this. It is what it is and so be it. Because of my work and family obligations, I can't go and live in Brazil or Colombia right now. So, I make the best of it.

I enjoy talking with Spanish-speakers and Creole-speakers here about aspects of their culture that can only really be expressed in Spanish or Creole (Voodoo, Santería, food, TL music, novelas, films, books) and in English when there are topics that are better expressed in English. That is part and parcel of living in a country where English is dominant. So, I either accept that and be happy with what I can do or I quit because I can't do what I feel I should be doing? For me, the former is the better choice.

Yes, we are imperfect speakers of a second language. We can do a lot but not everything. Speaking a second language, even imperfectly, enriches my life in so many ways that I wouldn't and couldn't give that up... even knowing that I will never be able to express myself in my languages as well as I can in English without going to live in a TL country for a few years. I do the best I can. I accept my limitations and I focus on what I can do. Like you, when I travel to a TL country, and spend time there my experience is so much richer than if I were just a monolingual English-speaker. To me, that, and all the enjoyment I get from exploring cultures different than my own makes it worthwhile- and I don't have to be perfect to do that. I hope you can find your peace with languages. You have done and can do quite a lot and you should be very proud of that. You are an inspiration to many on the forum. I hope your New Year brings you happiness and health.
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