basica's 2018 log: Serbian B+

[Theodisce]

What has always been crucial for me was the massive audio input (podcasts etc. rather than songs). Roughly 450 hours of mostly audio input gave me the possibility to have long conversations on subjects that interested me in both Spanish and Italian. I have no idea how that could relate to your situation though, other than in very general terms (i.e. as much audio as possible).

[iguanamon]

What has always been crucial for me was the massive audio input (podcasts etc. rather than songs). Roughly 450 hours of mostly audio input gave me the possibility to have long conversations on subjects that interested me in both Spanish and Italian. ...

I agree with Theodisce. However, I don't think massive audio and learning from songs is mutually exclusive. I've done and do both. I think that anything that keeps me listening is a good thing. Songs often have that "earworm" effect we've all experienced and can be used to a learner's benefit. Songs shouldn't be the primary method of audio exposure, but neither do I think they should be neglected, especially at A2/B1. At this stage, short audio can be parsed without too much difficulty and is a useful exercise for beginning to learn how to listen. I also include the news because I generally know what it is already and I have more than half a chance of gaining something out of it.

I knew I was ready for a series when I could easily listen to a newscast without a transcript. The next hurdle was a series. Like Theodisce, after a bunch of massive listening, I saw a dramatic improvement in all my abilities with Portuguese and Kreyòl. How you go about "massively listening" is up to you. You may not be able to find a short newscast with a transcript in Serbian. Maybe you'll find an audio book of a translation you know instead. That can work too to get you to where a series will help you. A dubbed series has the advantage of the possibility that you may know it already in English. The subtitles (TL and English) can be found on the web. These can be made into parallel texts which can help make it more comprehensible to you- read first then listen; listen first then read; use the subtitles (in document form) as an "answer sheet" when you try to check your comprehension by perhaps taking notes while watching. The options are many.

Good luck, basica. I hope you are more balanced in your learning this time and don't get so overly exuberant that you burn yourself out again.

[basica]

What has always been crucial for me was the massive audio input (podcasts etc. rather than songs). Roughly 450 hours of mostly audio input gave me the possibility to have long conversations on subjects that interested me in both Spanish and Italian. I have no idea how that could relate to your situation though, other than in very general terms (i.e. as much audio as possible).

I am relying mostly on Glossika for my audio input as at the very least I have a translation of what's being said. There's plenty of audio out there that I can listen to, I just don't think there's much use to it unless I can already understand some of it, which isn't the case for me. I would say that if I am listening to something like Voice of America, I can maybe pick up enough to get the gist of what's being said and that's helped a lot by the obvious visual cues. The gist however is perhaps the 1 or 2 meaningful words per sentence that I can pick up (not including words like is/are he/she etc). This comic speaks volumes of my situation, and I'm not even as good as it:



Should I bother investing in listening to audio of which I have so little comprehension of? I thought nay, but if I'm wrong I'm willing to give it a go.

I agree with Theodisce. However, I don't think massive audio and learning from songs is mutually exclusive. I've done and do both. I think that anything that keeps me listening is a good thing. Songs often have that "earworm" effect we've all experienced and can be used to a learner's benefit. Songs shouldn't be the primary method of audio exposure, but neither do I think they should be neglected, especially at A2/B1. At this stage, short audio can be parsed without too much difficulty and is a useful exercise for beginning to learn how to listen. I also include the news because I generally know what it is already and I have more than half a chance of gaining something out of it.

I listen to songs all throughout the day, but I don't make too much of an active effort to understand them (for the most part, sometimes I try but generally not while I am working). To be honest, I haven't seen much improvement from listening to them, but perhaps that's because I've taken too passive of an approach.

I knew I was ready for a series when I could easily listen to a newscast without a transcript. The next hurdle was a series. Like Theodisce, after a bunch of massive listening, I saw a dramatic improvement in all my abilities with Portuguese and Kreyòl. How you go about "massively listening" is up to you. You may not be able to find a short newscast with a transcript in Serbian. Maybe you'll find an audio book of a translation you know instead. That can work too to get you to where a series will help you. A dubbed series has the advantage of the possibility that you may know it already in English. The subtitles (TL and English) can be found on the web. These can be made into parallel texts which can help make it more comprehensible to you- read first then listen; listen first then read; use the subtitles (in document form) as an "answer sheet" when you try to check your comprehension by perhaps taking notes while watching. The options are many.

Yes, right now I am trying to find audio books in Serbian. So far I found a site with some very old books that have been read, I am going to try it out with one of them and see how I go. I'd prefer something newer though as most of these books are from the 1800s and Serbian has changed somewhat since that time period. I'm happy to buy audio books and the paperbacks to go with them, but it's a bit hard to navigate these sites for me at the moment and I can't seem to find much out there anyways. Might see if I can get one of my Serbian friends to help at some point though.

Good luck, basica. I hope you are more balanced in your learning this time and don't get so overly exuberant that you burn yourself out again.

Yes, I am a on/off type of person and I do find it hard not to be 100% on. I'm trying to have goals so that I have some direction, but at the same time I am trying not to be too enthralled that it consumes me. Will continue to try keeping myself in check as I'd rather go slow and steady than, quick with an abrupt stop, but I gotta admit it's hard

[Daniel N.]

Mačke su lepe

Sada mogu da kupim neke mačke (ali, ću da samo kupim jednu mačku). Baš sam srećan. Mislim da ću tražiti na skloništu. Mnogo mačke nemaju kuće i ne sviđa mi se to Mislim da je bolje nego kupim mačku na prodavnici. Uskoro ću da gledam neke mačke na internetu i onda kupim. Nadam se da tražim jednu slatku mačku

Večeras ću da vidim jedni prijatelj i njegovu ženu. Ćemo da igramo neke igre (na primer, Monopoly). Sutra ću da imam doručak sa prijateljima. Žena od mog prijatelja je završila njeni doktor (phd) i slavimo Mislim da će biti zabavno. Posle toga, nemam ništa. Samo ću biti kod kuće i gledaću Netflix i tako dalje.

To je sve za danas, čujemo se

Now, I have labelled parts that are really ungrammatical for most people in Serbia in red (from my experience how people in Serbia really speak/write!). Let's go over them:

na skloništu, na prodavnici = both places require the preposition u: u skloništu, u prodavnici. But na pijaci, na internetu. These are perceived as open spaces, while sklonište and prodavnica are closed.

Mnogo mačke = the word mnogo can be either an adjective, or a quantity adverb.

If it's an adjective, it has to agree with the noun, which then goes into plural, but gets case according to its role. The role is here the subject, so the nominative is needed: it would be (mnoge) mačke nemaju...

However, if it's a quantity adverb, it doesn't change, but the noun is then locked into genitive plural, and the verb goes into singular, neuter - since the word mnogo is now really the subject, and adverbs are always neuter singular: mnogo mačaka nema...

You can decide which construction to use. The first one is simpler, of course, but both are used.

sutra ću da vidim jedni prijatelji= the word prijatelj is here the object (see him) and consequently, must go into accusative, which is for masculine animate (i.e. people and animals) -a for nouns and -og for adjectives: sutra ću da vidim jedn-og prijatelj-a i...

nego kupim = you cannot put a verb and consequently start a clause after nego without a da: nego da kupim...

završila njeni doktor = possessives are less used in Serbian (and Croatian). We don't wash our hands, but wash the hands. We don't drive our car, but drive the car. But more important is that the word for PhD is doktorat.

nadam se da tražim = the verb tražiti means "look for". I guess you meant "find", which is naći (perfective): nadam se da ću naći... or nadam se da ću da nađem.... (now which you will use depends on your personal preference; some people in Serbia don't like two da's in a row, some do)

Takođe, želim da kažem da ova srpska testatura je loša. Zašto je slovo "Z" gde je "Y" kad koristiš tastaturu na engleskom? Ne sviđa mi se

A, to je sve. Ako nađeš neke greške, ću da hvala na ispravka

The key Y is left from the key X since it's so on the German keyboard. Yugoslav layouts are really adapted German layouts.

ću da hvala = the verb you need here is zahvaliti (perf.) thank. So: ću da zahvalim

You have more errors, but they not critical.

[basica]

Thanks for the corrections, Daniel. They're greatly appreciated

So, I've been doing the same old same old. I've also got a friend with whom I am speaking to I'd say every other day in Serbian. It's helping me get all the gears into motion again. Slowly feel like what I've forgotten is coming back ever so slowly.

I've started reading the Serbian translation of the Bible I mentioned earlier. At the very least I figured it'd help me improve my reading of cyrillic texts. I'm a couple chapters in, and it's actually surprising how exhausting it is. Far more so than speaking in Serbian. I've found the repetitiveness of the stories in the gospels to be pretty helpful (Jesus said X, the people said Y, the people didn't believe/understand etc) in picking up some vocabulary. I'm also surprised at how quickly I am improving my reading. It's also made me realize how I read English. For example, I pick up what a word is based on it's starting letters and the length instead of by reading the entire word itself. Quite bizarre but fascinating nevertheless.

I'm taking Anki pretty slowly, but I think I might ramp it up a bit because a lot of the vocabulary in the deck is still familiar to me so I'm not really feeling stretched at the moment. I might do a bunch of new cards for the next couple weeks till i get towards the end of my deck and then relax it a bit. Once I feel comfortable with my old vocabulary again, I'll start adding new words.

I was thinking about what others have said in both my log and elsewhere, and I've started thinking perhaps I've been focusing too much on active skills (producing speech and text instead of learning to understand speech and text) and perhaps this is a bit of a drawback. I might focus a bit more on consumption going forward, but I need to think of a way of doing this that won't bore me to tears since most things I encounter will likely be largely not understood. Hmm. I'll get back to y'all on this.

[Bex]

I am using much the same resources as you to learn Spanish (Glossika, Anki, writing) and your 2018 Serbian goals are nearly identical to mine.

I also have been focusing way too much on output... I will be following your log with much interest.

[iguanamon]

...I've started reading the Serbian translation of the Bible I mentioned earlier. At the very least I figured it'd help me improve my reading of cyrillic texts. I'm a couple chapters in, and it's actually surprising how exhausting it is. Far more so than speaking in Serbian. ...

When I first started with Ladino and Haitian Creole, I found the Old Testament, especially Genesis, to be more useful to me in learning. The vocabulary is simpler and more "everyday". The story is more linear, dramatic and less metaphysical. It reinforces number use. You learn a lot about sheep and shepherding. Talk about your repetition... the OT is chock full of it!

[basica]

I am using much the same resources as you to learn Spanish (Glossika, Anki, writing) and your 2018 Serbian goals are nearly identical to mine.

I also have been focusing way too much on output... I will be following your log with much interest.

Yes, I think I will take a relaxed version of the Super Challenge (being input focused). I think I made great progress with the method I had, but what I was doing burned me out and was too output focused. I feel like I could make further strides by switching things up. At the very least I'll see what works better and won't have to worry about the 'what ifs".

When I first started with Ladino and Haitian Creole, I found the Old Testament, especially Genesis, to be more useful to me in learning. The vocabulary is simpler and more "everyday". The story is more linear, dramatic and less metaphysical. It reinforces number use. You learn a lot about sheep and shepherding. Talk about your repetition... the OT is chock full of it!

Thanks for the tip. I am a few chapters into John (which I am the most familiar with in English so I started there as opposed to Matthew), but once I've finished it I will backtrack to Genesis. What would your comprehension levels were at when you first started, and how much effort (if any) did you spend on trying to translate the words you don't know? I'm currently only looking up the occasional word if it really bugs me, but other than that I am going in blind. I understand a bit, but not much so I'm second guessing myself at times about whether it's a good idea..still..my cyrillic reading skills are improving at least

[iguanamon]

...Thanks for the tip. I am a few chapters into John (which I am the most familiar with in English so I started there as opposed to Matthew), but once I've finished it I will backtrack to Genesis. What would your comprehension levels were at when you first started, and how much effort (if any) did you spend on trying to translate the words you don't know? I'm currently only looking up the occasional word if it really bugs me, but other than that I am going in blind. I understand a bit, but not much so I'm second guessing myself at times about whether it's a good idea..still..my cyrillic reading skills are improving at least

I was a beginner when starting Genesis, pun intended, but I had previously learned Spanish and Portuguese so I had a huge head start with Djudeo-espanyol/Ladino. Genesis really helped me with reading Hebrew Rashi script. Haitian Creole was more opaque, but again, I was an experienced learner.

I would use a parallel text. Serbian on the left and English on the right. Use modern translations, or King James if you feel comfortable with it. For English, I would use the NIV version. That way you can confirm your guesses more easily. You should be able to find a parallel text online, or make one yourself. I still looked up words and using pdf, I highlighted them and added the definition. The parallel text gives you the aid you need in comprehension, easily. With that in your hand, the repetition helps you to gain more vocabulary. The story carries you along. "Joseph and the Technicolor Dream Coat" was a hit Broadway show... loosely based on the story from Genesis, Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Lot's wife, Abraham and Isaac, they're all there in Genesis. After completing Genesis in HC, my language was consolidated enough to take me into B level, but I was also using my Multi-track approach. I studied my course. I did Pimsleur. I listened. I spoke and read tweets. Have a look at my signature link. It's all there, including a link to my old HC log at HTLAL.

The biggest mistake most monolingual adult beginners make is biting off more than they can chew. They get overwhelmed and conclude that X method "doesn't work" because they are trying to eat the whole pie instead of one bite at a time. Comprehension comes gradually at first. Then it starts to snowball. (snow analogies for Australians are probably meaningless!)

[basica]

I was a beginner when starting Genesis, pun intended, but I had previously learned Spanish and Portuguese so I had a huge head start with Djudeo-espanyol/Ladino. Genesis really helped me with reading Hebrew Rashi script. Haitian Creole was more opaque, but again, I was an experienced learner.

I would use a parallel text. Serbian on the left and English on the right. Use modern translations, or King James if you feel comfortable with it. For English, I would use the NIV version. That way you can confirm your guesses more easily. You should be able to find a parallel text online, or make one yourself. I still looked up words and using pdf, I highlighted them and added the definition. The parallel text gives you the aid you need in comprehension, easily. With that in your hand, the repetition helps you to gain more vocabulary. The story carries you along. "Joseph and the Technicolor Dream Coat" was a hit Broadway show... loosely based on the story from Genesis, Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Lot's wife, Abraham and Isaac, they're all there in Genesis. After completing Genesis in HC, my language was consolidated enough to take me into B level,

Thank you for reminding me. Thankfully reading texts in parallel is quite common in the Christian sphere so there's support for it in some of the more well known sites. Fortuitously, the organisation that created the Serbian translation I am using, has also created one in English. Here's an example here of John 1 in both translations from the organisation. I think I will start doing this instead of my solo approach.

but I was also using my Multi-track approach. I studied my course. I did Pimsleur. I listened. I spoke and read tweets. Have a look at my signature link. It's all there, including a link to my old HC log at HTLAL.

Yes, I've read about your MTA method and I think my routine somewhat follows the spirit of it, but with room for improvement. I follow a textbook (albeit not routinely, but more as I feel like it), I use Glossika for comprehension and speaking practice, Anki for memorisation and conversation partners for conversational practice. However, the glaring omission from my routine is reading or listening to TL material with intent. This is what I will now try to change, starting with reading material and then slowly moving more to audiovisual media.

The biggest mistake most monolingual adult beginners make is biting off more than they can chew. They get overwhelmed and conclude that X method "doesn't work" because they are trying to eat the whole pie instead of one bite at a time. Comprehension comes gradually at first. Then it starts to snowball. (snow analogies for Australians are probably meaningless!)

We have snow here, just where noone really lives The first time I saw snow I was in Korea. Quite a grand time

Yes, I am trying to find my balance here. I'm trying to find a point where I am feeling stretched, but not torn asunder and that's kinda hard. I think once I've gotten it down though it'll help me immensely and perhaps for other languages I (may) learn in the future.