Episode VI: A New Hope, Cavesa strikes back

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Cavesa
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Re: Episode VI: A New Hope, Cavesa strikes back

Postby Cavesa » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:35 pm

I spent way too much time on Clozemaster today. I love it. While the Memrise app is now kitsch and hyperslow and problematic in various ways, Clozemaster works great. Even if I cannot play offline. The only difference is the comfort of typing. But when I am doing the final reviews, I don't mind the multiple choices much either.

I would really like some of the Pro functions, Clozemaster is doing the free/paid distinction well. Unlike many others. A very useful product for free, but more value offered. The problem is the price. I could justify 24 euro one time payment for Anki. I am seriously considering 5 dollars per month for readlang (still only considering though) from May (the new SC). But 60 dollars per year or 8 per month is simply too much for me. I need to put my "non survival" budget elsewhere.

An opposite example of making the free/pro distinction: Lingvist. Instead of adding more value for Pro, they simply took away from the Free version. https://lingvist.com/blog/2017/12/15/whats-coming-in-2018/ Even if I leave out my doubts about the quality of the content (I described it elsewhere, the bottom line: in my opinion, the makers are much better at app making than at the language itself or language learning in general), this is simply stupid. Free version: 3000 words, Pro:4000. So, you take away 1000 from the free, that makes sense to some extent. But you add nothing, so you expect people to pay 23 euro per month or 90 per year for just one 1000 words? Make it 15000 and Lingvist might be the best tool on the market. Ok, there are gonna be specialised courses, but unless they are like "2000 new words" or "all the vocab from this or that coursebook series" (like in Scritter), I see no value in it. A Pro feature is a speech recognition system. Well, not useful to me, and they tend to be of dubious quality in general. Limit to 50 words per day is not that unreasonable.

Ok, yet another level would be Memrise, true, but no need to flood this thread with the lenghty description of their free/pro model transformation. :-D :-D :-D But the app is really horrible now.

Well, if you made them both cost 3 dollars per month, I would subscribe Clozemaster, hoping there would be enough clients to cover for the lower price (and more). And I still wouldn't want Lingvist. I am actually surprised I've seen no discussion on this change on the forum.
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Re: Episode VI: A New Hope, Cavesa strikes back

Postby Cavesa » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:29 pm

Another Yuurei point: 3 new Spanish verbs on Memrise, plus some reviews (approximately 150 verb forms).
And some more Clozemaster:German.
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Re: Episode VI: A New Hope, Cavesa strikes back

Postby Cavesa » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:55 pm

I've done a part of unidad 1 of the Spanish course, but I still need to do the rest. To have at least part of these Weekly Goals. Next week, I can strive to do even more tasks on the list. And more, until I manage to do them all.

Today, I am teaching my sister English. I really dislike her teacher as I have to reteach her everything, explain, correct basic mistakes my sister must have been doing in her school tests too. Even in a class of 15 people, you can still give feedback and explain persisting mistakes, that's what is a teacher paid for. M. is now taking a break, which I might be needing even more. It is sometimes a bit nerve wrecking. Being her sister, I can dare to be harsher than were I teaching a stranger, but she also dares to be more resistant at times (and actively annoying). She is motivated, she wants to improve her final grade this semester, the initiative to study this weekend was hers. However, it is very stressful to see how many things she needs to work on and I totally understand her frustration. That teacher doesn't deserve her pay, if she cannot teach a motivated student, able to read a book in English, the basic grammar. She is focusing on translation exercises, ok. But even that can be done either well or horribly. Guess which answer is correct. What is worse, my sister has been loosing her already gained skills, for example her pronunciation, or the grammar we had already been learning together. A remarkable teaching success after three semesters. If that teacher was a builder, she would accidentally take buildings down, one brick after another.

Two attitudes are fighting in the mainstream language teaching now. The modern "communicative" approach, and the "traditional" attitude. However, many teachers are awesome at combining the disadvantages of both of them. Great.

I am helping by giving explanations, going over mistakes, practicing, recommending books to read (Harry Potter is just an example of great motivation to improve), choosing exercise books. But there is a huge gap on the market for kids. Serious resources for children, that would really bring the results and not just fool parents into thinking "oh, this is is such a modern and fun miracle". If anyone knows about such a coursebook (I found a grammar book that is not bad), that would be useful, I would appreciate such a recommendation. Something full of examples, texts and audios, that would be relevant to the grammar taught. And it would be logically organised. And relevant to a 13 year old person. Of course she is not interested in stuff related to workplace situations. But the material "for children" tends to be too narrow minded.

It is also not easy to define common goals. She wants to really learn the language. But at the same time, she wants to get good grades. That is a kind of a problem. Especially given the fact her teacher is so clueless to say things like "The final exam will be like the Cambridge exams! There will be lots of translation!" :-D
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Re: Episode VI: A New Hope, Cavesa strikes back

Postby Xenops » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:22 pm

Cavesa wrote:
I am helping by giving explanations, going over mistakes, practicing, recommending books to read (Harry Potter is just an example of great motivation to improve), choosing exercise books. But there is a huge gap on the market for kids. Serious resources for children, that would really bring the results and not just fool parents into thinking "oh, this is is such a modern and fun miracle". If anyone knows about such a coursebook (I found a grammar book that is not bad), that would be useful, I would appreciate such a recommendation. Something full of examples, texts and audios, that would be relevant to the grammar taught. And it would be logically organised. And relevant to a 13 year old person. Of course she is not interested in stuff related to workplace situations. But the material "for children" tends to be too narrow minded.


This is a problem I hadn't considered before: of course no 13-year-old would want to spend a chapter on learning vocabulary on passing customs in an airport (I still don't enjoy it as a 30-year-old!). The challenge is also having to tailor to a student's interest: one girl might love everything about horses, and the next girl wouldn't. One boy might love space exploration, and the other, sports.

Perhaps find books related to her interests?
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Re: Episode VI: A New Hope, Cavesa strikes back

Postby tiia » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:51 pm

How is your sister's textbook in school? Or are there other textbooks for schools?

I think my textbooks in in school were quite okay topic wise, at least the later ones. We used the "Password green" series. The last book (6th year English, 15-16 year old students) was supposed to provide different texts where you could just choose whatever the teacher/students found interesting. So you didn't have to do everything in a fixed order. There were e.g. texts about american history (native americans, slavery...) as well as some guy paragliding, who then "lost consciousness" (that's how I learned that expression), if I remember correctly. The earlier books had an ongoing story of a German exchange student in Nottingham. I don't know from which book on the topics mostly didn't contain this story anymore.

It seems to be rather difficult to find enough useful information about that series as it's from around 1999 and although you can find the books really cheap on Amazon (~1€+shipping). Audio might be a problem, so I cannot say whether it's suitable in your case.

But maybe looking for other school books may be an option for finding more interesting topics than the stereotypical work life stuff or eating in restaurants etc.
(Remember that I used a novel in Spanish more or less recently that was aimed at students in grade 12-13 (2nd-3rd year Spanish), just because I wanted to avoid the typical graded readers for adults?)
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Re: Episode VI: A New Hope, Cavesa strikes back

Postby Ani » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:38 pm

Does your sister do well enough with grammar that a book for native kids might work? I really don't know what it's like to learn English but I wonder about the Michael Clay Thomas Grammar Island books. They are super direct on the analytical front, but of course won't cover typical learner stuff. They see filled with nice language and clever stories.

I can probably find her a pen pal of she wants one for practice and motivation. There are lots of young teen girls in my community. My 9 year old son wild be interested but he is probably too young and male to be interesting to her:)
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Re: Episode VI: A New Hope, Cavesa strikes back

Postby aravinda » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:45 pm

Cavesa wrote:... If anyone knows about such a coursebook (I found a grammar book that is not bad), that would be useful, I would appreciate such a recommendation...
I'm not sure about your sister's current level of English. I have found the Oxford English Grammar Course by Michael Swan to be very good. It comes in three levels, I have used the Intermediate and Advanced books for revision. They have accompanying CD-ROMs with some audio but I'm not sure about the duration or the usefulness of it either because I hadn't used them or because I have totally forgotten how they were. Grammar is systematically and very well explained, a lot of exercises, lot of real-life examples/texts, interesting and memorable quotes, funny cartoons relevant to the grammar points discussed and minimal dead space. Be sure you buy the version with answers!

Probably you already know about this series of books called English in Use (Cambridge). It has books for grammar, vocabulary, phrasal verbs, idioms, collocations and pronunciation. The closest thing in English to Progressive series from CLE. I have used many books from this series and I am thoroughly impressed. Most libraries and bookshops have them, so you can check before buying.

Hope this helps. If you need more info or want to see a couple of pages let me know.
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Re: Episode VI: A New Hope, Cavesa strikes back

Postby Cavesa » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:22 pm

Thanks for all the ideas! I knew many of you would have relevant experience.

I've already spent some time trying to look for coursebooks, and that is why I am not afraid to judge the whole sector as lacking in many ways.

Books for adults use all those boring irrelevant situations like talking to a colleague, looking for a job, and so on. Books for children and teens are usually too stupid, with the real knowledge watered down. At primary school, they focus on boring stuff like objects in the classroom, and similar hyper everyday stuff, absolutely not using the curiosity most of the kids have. There was no grammar in the stupid coursebooks my sister had been using a few years ago, so part of the frustration was coming from "why I am spending time on this, if I still cannot say anything I want". For teens, the books are trying to be something in between, but still the result is extremely narrow and superficial. And most teachers seem to avoid the books "for teens" anyways and go for those for "older teens and adults" immediately, as there really seems to be even less content in those specificaly for teens, and it may not be easy to switch to an adult series later.

All those are modern, expensive books published in the UK, the problem is not having outdated books in schools. Language coursebooks are the only books parents of kids under 15 have to pay for in the czech schools, and the most expensive of them. I think this is a part of the problem. The schools have to avoid very expensive choices. And they also cannot just buy supplementary books for their library in sufficient amount either.

My sister's school uses https://elt.oup.com/catalogue/items/global/adult_courses/new_english_file/?cc=cz&selLanguage=cs the New English File, her class is "working with" the beginner or elementary level. The idea of the creators seems to be good, but the result is crap. Yes, there is a "grammar bank" and "vocabulary bank" and the content trying to be interesting. But as usual, there is not that much of the content, in my opinion. The grammar explanations are not sufficient (inviting you to buy a separate grammar book) and neither are the vocab lists.

The teacher, as is absolutely typical, uses the book to some extent but requires much more than that (because there is so little in the book). People on the internet tend to complain about teachers sticking to coursebooks too much and not really teaching on their own. I have yet to meet such a teacher, they are all trying to be creative and add a lot to the insufficient textbook they have chosen. So it is hard to tell what is my sister actually required to know, because opening the chapter they are at leads to "yeah, but this is not what's gonna be in the test". And they can't take their previous tests home.

I'll look at the Password Green series or something similar. That might be helpful, to get more examples in context. I am more and more convinced existence of such books with just such content, combined with books on grammar, and books on vocabulary, could easily push the "jack of all trades" courses aside. I'll have a look at that. My sister loves fantasy books, but she is also curious about various stuff, both from humanities and science. So, there is a lot to build upon, it just takes some research.

She is not as independent as I used to be. I wouldn't call it a lack of talent, she is just different. Different type of intelligence, different personality. So, I need to choose things super easy to use on her own, as she simply finds it harder to use self study workbooks and similar tools. But I think she'll get into it so, with more encouragement. I cannot be there every day. I love my family, but spending time with them is not easy for me, both as I need the time for my own studies, and it is also quite tiring to be there (a lot of people, noise, and so on).

She finds grammar and logical things harder the me, or sometimes it is just laziness to think (I am more and more convinced of that. It is simpler to say "I don't know" than to figure stuff out.). But she is good at understanding stuff in context, such as reading a book (she loves Harry Potter. And of course she needed the book 8 asap, without waiting for the translation ;-) ). The problem is, that a proper logical analysis could help her speed up her studies, and also improve her test results.

One of the problems is lack of confidence. She keeps refusing even to read aloud. She is not bad, even though not particularly good either. She needs practice. But she really seemed distressed when I insisted on her reading the answers out loud, and obeyed only partially. I don't understand. What is happening at school, making a girl, who is not introverted, who is good at communication with others, and who has no general problem with speaking publicly, is so nervous about reading a few sentences in English?

Ani, she is quite good, when it comes to reading comprehension. What are those books like? As there is an online version, and very affordable, they could be very useful, but I just couldn't find screetshots or a more detailed description.

I'll offer her a pen pal, that would be awesome! Thanks for this idea and offer. I'm afraid your son would be too brother-like (9 years, a coincidence) :-D But I think an idea of corresponding with a young teen girl from a different continent (who might surely have a lot in common with her, perhaps loving YA fantasy books and movies, to start from somewhere) could be exactly the kind of motivation we need!
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Re: Episode VI: A New Hope, Cavesa strikes back

Postby Cavesa » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:26 pm

aravinda wrote:
Cavesa wrote:... If anyone knows about such a coursebook (I found a grammar book that is not bad), that would be useful, I would appreciate such a recommendation...
I'm not sure about your sister's current level of English. I have found the Oxford English Grammar Course by Michael Swan to be very good. It comes in three levels, I have used the Intermediate and Advanced books for revision. They have accompanying CD-ROMs with some audio but I'm not sure about the duration or the usefulness of it either because I hadn't used them or because I have totally forgotten how they were. Grammar is systematically and very well explained, a lot of exercises, lot of real-life examples/texts, interesting and memorable quotes, funny cartoons relevant to the grammar points discussed and minimal dead space. Be sure you buy the version with answers!

Probably you already know about this series of books called English in Use (Cambridge). It has books for grammar, vocabulary, phrasal verbs, idioms, collocations and pronunciation. The closest thing in English to Progressive series from CLE. I have used many books from this series and I am thoroughly impressed. Most libraries and bookshops have them, so you can check before buying.

Hope this helps. If you need more info or want to see a couple of pages let me know.


This is the series we have started! That Oxford Grammar Course! The Basic one for now. She needs more motivation to get in the habit of using it, but I think it will be very helpful in the long run. Great to see someone else being content with it! She's got the version with the key to exercises. I told her so. Twice or three times. Well, she might have finally noticed :-D

English in Use is the series I had been using ages ago. I hated it due to the teacher, but it was still an extremely valuable tool. But when I was considering it, I found the Oxford Grammar better designed. And the example sentences were simply better and more realistic.
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Re: Episode VI: A New Hope, Cavesa strikes back

Postby tiia » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:37 am

As Password Green is a bit old now and there are no possibilities to look into it online, here is what has been used since then in many schools. They put quite a lot pages online to take a look at. I think at least the style (how tasks are presented) is also similar to the old series, tough I may miss a few topics - I haven't found that much of American history as I was expecting from my old book.
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