劳伦的博客 - Epistolia Laurentii

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
Adam
White Belt
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:54 am
Languages: English (N)
Mandarin Chinese (have been trying to learn for a long time)
French (a bit)
Japanese (a little bit)
Other languages - learning the scripts of Arabic, Hebrew, Tamil, Burmese, Korean, Hindi; have dabbled in Spanish, Russian, and Ancient Greek.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1449
x 11

Re: 劳伦的博客

Postby Adam » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:23 am

lorinth wrote:ZH: A roundup of the ressources I'm currently using ... Worked on yet another Slow Chinese podcast, titled "李小龙与中国功夫" (Bruce Lee and Chinese Kung Fu). This one was noticeably more difficult. I started by reading the transcript, and there were quite a few words that I did not know so, probably, I wouldn't have understood much of the podcast if I hadn't read the transcript before. But even after having read the written version, I made many mistakes while transcribing, and there were parts I did not understand.

As a reminder, Slow Chinese is a truly vital resource for people learning Chinese, as it offers 145 podcasts (and counting) with transcripts about many aspects of China. The texts are interesting and they are read, as the title implies, slowly.


Thanks very much for alerting me to this!

I've just now listened to parts of a couple of them, just trying to see if I could follow along on the script - whether or not I was understanding it (speech or writing) fully - sort of like if you were learning music, and trying to follow along on the score while listening to a recording.

As I understand what you have written above, you use it like a dictation test (after having had a read-through first). Is this correct?
1 x
(The user formerly known as Adamdm or AdamDM2 on HTLAL)

User avatar
Dani
White Belt
Posts: 39
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:10 am
Languages: Studies: Chinese (B1)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1457
x 20

Re: 劳伦的博客 - Epistolia Laurentii

Postby Dani » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:20 am

Thank you for posting all those resources! When I'm done with the novel I'm reading right now, I might dive into the world of tomb-robbery with Chinese characteristics. I suspect pop up dictionaries are going to be my lifesaver here as I plan to read more intensively. It's probably the only problem I have with paper books; if they had built-in dictionaries they'd be perfect.
0 x
Corrections are always welcome!

2016
Writing
● Speaking
: 0 / 75000
: 9 / 3000 min
● Reading
● Watching
: 25 / 10000 pages
: 0 / 0 min

User avatar
lorinth
Orange Belt
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:51 am
Languages: French (N) Walloon (N). Currently focussing on ZH. Studied EN, LA, NL, FI, ES to varying degrees of disappointment.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=728
x 101

Re: 劳伦的博客 - Epistolia Laurentii

Postby lorinth » Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:15 pm

As I understand what you have written above, you use it like a dictation test (after having had a read-through first). Is this correct?


Hello Adam, in theory I avoid reading the transcript beforehand when I'm working with Slow Chinese. The written texts more or less correspond to my level, I can understand them with only an occasional dictionary lookup. My reasoning is that, therefore, I *should* be able to understand the spoken version. The problem is: I don't - except with much repetition, slowing down and looping through sentences. So I have been trying dictation exercices to try and improve my listening comprehension. Note that I write what I hear in pinyin: in this case, I'm not interested in establishing whether I can write the characters, but whether I can understand what I hear and whether I'm able to transcribe acurately (tones and all) even those parts that I don't understand.

Only after the dictation part is finished do I check the transcript.

Now, sometimes, in Slow Chinese or elsewhere, I tackle texts that are too difficult. When I don't understand anything at all in the spoken version, even when slowing down the voice, repeating and looping, I know I have to check the written version first, in order to make it understandable. But I try to avoid such texts for listening exercises. They may be good for reading and learning new words, but not for improving my listening skills.
Last edited by lorinth on Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
Gu Long's 陸小鳳傳奇 : 40 / 100
Rouzer's A New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese : 9 / 40
Le finnois sans peine : 18 / 100
Tavataan Taas 2 : 12 / 30

User avatar
Expugnator
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1728
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:45 pm
Location: Belo Horizonte
Languages: Native Brazilian Portuguese#advanced fluency English, French, Papiamento#basic fluency Italian, Norwegian#intermediate Spanish, German, Georgian and Chinese (Mandarin)#basic Russian, Estonian, Greek (Modern)#just started Indonesian, Hebrew (Modern), Guarani
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9931
x 3589

Re: 劳伦的博客 - Epistolia Laurentii

Postby Expugnator » Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:42 pm

I will be getting down to those Slow Chinese resources in a few months and I'm curious as to how I'm going to get along with them. I have a rather weaker reading skill compared to my ability to do small talk in the language. I believe much of the trouble in understanding is parsing out meaning while dealing with a different grammar/word order (for example, Chinese is more radically left-branched than English and you have to get used to the fact that time information usually comes in bthe beginning BUT duration information comes towards the end).
0 x
Corrections welcome for any language.

User avatar
lorinth
Orange Belt
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:51 am
Languages: French (N) Walloon (N). Currently focussing on ZH. Studied EN, LA, NL, FI, ES to varying degrees of disappointment.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=728
x 101

Re: 劳伦的博客 - Epistolia Laurentii

Postby lorinth » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:25 pm

I might dive into the world of tomb-robbery with Chinese characteristics.


Hello Dani, if you're interested, I documented the process of reading my first tomb raiding novel over at chinese-forums: Reading 鬼吹灯 - pulpy supernatural fiction.

If it's any use, in the same forum, I also documented the process of reading my first wuxia novel: Reading Gu Long's "流星•蝴蝶•剑"

When I'm done with the novel I'm reading right now


What are you reading, out of curiosity? I'm always looking for ideas...
Last edited by lorinth on Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
0 x
Gu Long's 陸小鳳傳奇 : 40 / 100
Rouzer's A New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese : 9 / 40
Le finnois sans peine : 18 / 100
Tavataan Taas 2 : 12 / 30

User avatar
lorinth
Orange Belt
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:51 am
Languages: French (N) Walloon (N). Currently focussing on ZH. Studied EN, LA, NL, FI, ES to varying degrees of disappointment.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=728
x 101

Re: 劳伦的博客 - Epistolia Laurentii

Postby lorinth » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:39 pm

for example, Chinese is more radically left-branched than English and you have to get used to the fact that time information usually comes in bthe beginning BUT duration information comes towards the end


Hello Expugnator! For me, the biggest hurdle has not been syntax. Maybe because I started reading a lot early in the learning process, I've never felt that Chinese grammar was that complicated... well, it's not entirely clear either. I remember that sentences with negative pronouns (sentences with "nobody... ", "never... ", "nothing...") were very hard to grasp in the beginning. And, of course, the meaning of several grammar particles remains elusive... Nonetheless, when I analyse my mistakes after dictation/listening comprehension exercises, almost all of them boil down to:

- phonology: tone mistakes, of course, tons of them. But I also tend not to hear certain rhymes (e.g. the difference between -ing and -in, -ang and -an; but also -ian vs. -ie) and certain initials (above all ji- vs ti- vs qi-).

- vocabulary: you have to know thousands upon thousands of words before things start to make sense and before you can guess the meaning of unknown words thanks to a context you fully understand.

I should add that there's also the general and elusive problem of "getting used to": often, I do not understand spoken sentences that I *should* really understand, because I know all the words, and yet, they only make sense when I see the transcript. But that, I guess, has only one remedy: hours and hours and hours of input...
1 x
Gu Long's 陸小鳳傳奇 : 40 / 100
Rouzer's A New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese : 9 / 40
Le finnois sans peine : 18 / 100
Tavataan Taas 2 : 12 / 30

User avatar
Dani
White Belt
Posts: 39
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:10 am
Languages: Studies: Chinese (B1)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1457
x 20

Re: 劳伦的博客 - Epistolia Laurentii

Postby Dani » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:23 am

lorinth wrote:Hello Dani, if you're interested, I documented the process of reading my first tomb raiding novel over at chinese-forums: Reading 鬼吹灯 - pulpy supernatural fiction.

If it's any use, in the same forum, I also documented the process of reading my first wuxia novel: Reading Gu Long's "流星•蝴蝶•剑".


Thank you! I'll check that out.

lorinth wrote:
When I'm done with the novel I'm reading right now


What are you reading, out of curiosity? I'm always looking for ideas...


I'm currently reading a short story collection named 'Zoo' that has been translated from Japanese. I couldn't find an online version, sorry, but the author is Otsu Ichi. I really like reading translations, because it always seemed to me that they are easier to read. That might just be me lying to myself, though. Since it's an actual book I'm not looking anything up, but fortunately it's easy enough to understand everything that's going on. I'm just missing details.
0 x
Corrections are always welcome!

2016
Writing
● Speaking
: 0 / 75000
: 9 / 3000 min
● Reading
● Watching
: 25 / 10000 pages
: 0 / 0 min

User avatar
lorinth
Orange Belt
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:51 am
Languages: French (N) Walloon (N). Currently focussing on ZH. Studied EN, LA, NL, FI, ES to varying degrees of disappointment.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=728
x 101

Re: 劳伦的博客 - Epistolia Laurentii

Postby lorinth » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:26 am

ZH

when I analyse my mistakes after dictation/listening comprehension exercises, almost all of them boil down to...


QED: I transcribed Slow Chinese podcast #130, about products made in China, and i counted 37 phonological mistakes, among which:

- 30 were purely tone mistakes (sui4 for sui2, cheng2 for cheng1, etc.)
- 7 were other mistakes (syllable initial or ending), and among those, no less than 5 concerned the distinction between nasal velar/non-velar (min2 for ming2, zhang4 for zhan4), etc.

So it's pretty obvious were my weaknesses are. That's the good news.

LA

I read and studied Seneca's fifth letter to Lucillius, about the middle way of the stoician philosopher. It sounds like the Chinese 中庸 of confucianism, doesn't it? Maybe there's an interesting comparison to be made.
0 x
Gu Long's 陸小鳳傳奇 : 40 / 100
Rouzer's A New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese : 9 / 40
Le finnois sans peine : 18 / 100
Tavataan Taas 2 : 12 / 30

User avatar
lorinth
Orange Belt
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:51 am
Languages: French (N) Walloon (N). Currently focussing on ZH. Studied EN, LA, NL, FI, ES to varying degrees of disappointment.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=728
x 101

Re: 劳伦的博客 - Epistolia Laurentii

Postby lorinth » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:47 pm

ZH

The problem of assessing progress (if any...) is a vexing one, especially as far as listening comprehension is concerned and even more so when, subjectively, you don't see much progress at all. As I've been doing a lot of transcription/dictation exercises lately, I thought I might simply divide the number of mistakes by the total number of words in a text, and then compare the evolution of the ratio over time.

For instance, the text of Slow Chinese #130, which I transcribed last week, contains roughly 564 characters. I made 30 tone mistakes, i.e. 30/564= 5.31%, and 7 "other" mistakes, i.e. 7/564=1.24%.

In the text of Slow Chinese #129, which I transcribed this week, there are approximately 838 characters, and I made 45 tone mistakes, i.e. 45/838=5.36%, and 18 "other" mistakes, i.e. 18/838=2.14%.

(BTW the "other" mistakes in this week's transcript were comparable to those of the week before: in 4 cases I did not recognize the distinction between nasal velar/non-velar; in 6 cases, I mixed up the initials qi-/ti-/ji-; the other 8 mistakes were a mixed bag).

Alone, that ratio probably doesn't mean anything (if only because the relatively small number of mistakes is a misperception related to the fact that the most frequent words are also those which I tend to hear correctly), but comparing the evolution (if any) of those crude figures over time could indicate a reliable trend.

LA

I've started reading Erasmus' humorous first colloquium (In primo congressu) (Colloquia familiaria Erasmi). I skipped the introduction for now (De utilitate colloquiorum ad lectorem), as it's much more difficult.

GR

Assimil lesson 19.
0 x
Gu Long's 陸小鳳傳奇 : 40 / 100
Rouzer's A New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese : 9 / 40
Le finnois sans peine : 18 / 100
Tavataan Taas 2 : 12 / 30

User avatar
lorinth
Orange Belt
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:51 am
Languages: French (N) Walloon (N). Currently focussing on ZH. Studied EN, LA, NL, FI, ES to varying degrees of disappointment.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=728
x 101

Re: 劳伦的博客 - Epistolia Laurentii

Postby lorinth » Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:39 pm

The never-ending ZH listening comprehension ordeal
-------------------------------------------------------------

Transcribed Slow Chinese podcasts #128. Here are the results, based on the same crude methodology as in previous posts:
    - Tone mistakes: 6.69%
    - Other mistakes: 1.43% (among the 9 mistakes, no less than 5 concerned a confusion between the initials ji-/qi-/ti-).

Attentive readers will not fail to notice that the proportion of mistakes, far from decreasing, has actually been increasing with successive listening comprehension exercises.

Not being one to despair so easily, I decided to do some extensive listening instead. So I tuned in to listen to Radio Taiwan International. After five minutes, I was defeated again and had to admit that I was not understanding what people were talking about.

So I did something else entirely: I reread the first chapter of Ba Jin's 家 while listening to an audio version I found on the net. Though I read that first chapter a couple of weeks ago, I missed many many things while listening because my brains did not have the time to parse the audio info while reading.

So I changed my approach again and listened to a podcast offered on the Chairman Bao site. Because of the above-mentioned humbling experiences, I chose to listen to a HSK 3 level podcast. That's the lowest level they offer. I listened to the (failed) attempt to cook the most gigantic fried rice plate (扬州炒饭世界记录被批评浪费食物). Ah, finally, that was OK, I could follow the audio, though I missed several things, but hey, compared with what I'd been doing in the previous sessions, I was relieved. But holy Christ, HSK3! That's supposed to be friggin A1 (maybe A2) on the CEFR scale! I've been studying Chinese for 7 friggin years! And trying all the friggin methods I could put my ear on! And sticking to some of them for friggin months.

I also listened to a Slow Chinese podcast I had studied months, if not years ago (podcast #1, about 端午节, the Dragon boat festival). That was OK too, though I missed a few more complicated sentences. I typed 端午节 in Youtube and found that, as I'd expected, there are several short shows on the same subject. So, now that I know the keywords about that, it could be useful to listen to those shows and there's some (low) probability that I could understand what's going on.
0 x
Gu Long's 陸小鳳傳奇 : 40 / 100
Rouzer's A New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese : 9 / 40
Le finnois sans peine : 18 / 100
Tavataan Taas 2 : 12 / 30


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests