sketchc89 language log - Chinese

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sketchc89
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sketchc89 language log - Chinese

Postby sketchc89 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:51 pm

I've been reading HTLAL and language-learners since 2010, but haven't really been an active contributor. I started learning German around then. I was able to make a decent amount of progress in that with Assimil and slowly reading books that were too difficult for me. When I stopped working on German in 2012, I could read Harry Potter books (1-3), but couldn't hold a conversation.

I've been studying Chinese for four and a half years. I switched to Chinese because of my girlfriend, now fiancee. Even though she is a native Chinese speaker, we nearly always speak in English.

I'm currently able to read Chinese graded readers like Chinese Breeze and Mandarin companion, but struggle to keep up in most conversation.

Studying:
  • Anki - I've put a lot of (probably too much) time into Anki. I have 190k reviews over the last 4.5 years. This is mostly because I've kept up with doing Anki when all of my other studying gets pushed aside. At first my cards were a combination of characters and sentences. I've deleted all of the character cards, because I don't think they help without context. These cards are largely from the now defunct iknow.jp, Chinesepod, and a few from FSI/NPCR/Integrated Chinese. I made the mistake of using someone else's deck (Mastering Chinese Characters) without first studying the content so it took a lot longer to memorize. With Chinesepod sentences, I've studied the content so the cards stick better.
  • Chinesepod - Chinesepod is a great source of audio input. I started with Elementary lessons and moved into Intermediate lessons. After I listen to the lesson, I'll put the dialogue into a queue of Chinesepod dialogue to listen to. I also move the individual sentences in the dialogue to Anki using a web-scraping script I wrote. Just recently, I stopped adding new lessons and started going back through the lessons I've studied and started working on the exercises. I also started watching the Say It Right series.
  • The Chairman's Bao - TCB is a great source of graded reading content. I try to read an article every day and answer the new comprehension questions they have. I usually read HSK3-4 articles. I should be working on harder articles, but the added difficulty is a bit much with everything else I'm working on.
  • NPCR/Integrated Chinese - These textbooks are pretty high quality, but I haven't put in enough time to finish either series. My programming projects take up the time I could be putting into this.
  • Glossika - I just started this a few days ago. I'm using the older (non-ai) version. So far I like the program. I'm following the 21-week 90 minute/day 96k reps schedule. The GSR lessons are nice since you can combine them with walking. The prompts are at a faster speed than I'm used to speaking so this should help with my very stilted speech.
I'll be updating this log as I make my way through the Glossika and continue using Chinesepod and TCB.
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sketchc89
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Re: sketchc89 language log - Chinese

Postby sketchc89 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:52 am

I took care of quite a few Chinesepod intermediate exercises last night while watching my Wolverines get destroyed in prime time college football. Chinesepod recommends studying 120 intermediate lessons before moving onto Upper Intermediate. I've listened and SRS'd 88, but have only completed the exercises and read expansion and grammar for about 15. I'm not starting on new lessons until I clear all of these exercises out. This should pull down my daily Anki reviews to a more manageable level.

The first four days of the Glossika schedule I'm on were composed of 3 GMS lessons and 3 GSR lessons. From tomorrow on, it'll be 2 GMS, 3 GSR. 90 minutes/day is a lot, but manageable for 21 weeks. Some of the new GMS sentences were difficult to repeat in the allotted time as they increased in length. GSR continues to be simple and automatic. I find I'm saying the answer in my head between the English sentence and the Chinese prompt which I think is the point ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

My plan going forward is to complete the 2 10-15 minute GMS lessons in the morning before work. I'll work on the GSR lessons while walking my dog before/after work. I can probably also work in time around lunch but I'm in Michigan and Winter is Coming 冏rz.

The research behind Glossika is very vague. In one article https://www.mezzoguild.com/glossika-review/, the founder mentions research by Alan Baddeley https://www.york.ac.uk/psychology/staff/academicstaff/ab50/ as his inspiration behind his version of SRS which is very different than Anki. Baddeley is known primarily for his model of working memory which is composed of executive control, phonological loop, and visuo-spatial sketchpad. I've found one of the books he coauthored on Working Memory and Second Language Acquisition, but I haven't found what I'm looking for yet. I will probably end up sinking more time into this, and if I find anything I'll post my updates here.
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jeff_lindqvist
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Re: sketchc89 language log - Chinese

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:43 pm

A belated welcome to the forum! I'll follow your log with greatest interest.

sketchc89 wrote:I took care of quite a few Chinesepod intermediate exercises last night while watching my Wolverines get destroyed in prime time college football. Chinesepod recommends studying 120 intermediate lessons before moving onto Upper Intermediate.


Is there a similar recommendation for elementary lessons (before intermediate)? If Chinesepod follows the [language]101 format, I could never stick to that amount of lessons before moving to the next level (even though I don't know my so far studied Cantonese/Czech lessons by heart, I find the format boring as hell, due to the amount of English).

How many elementary lessons did you study before moving on?
0 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

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sketchc89
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Re: sketchc89 language log - Chinese

Postby sketchc89 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:54 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:A belated welcome to the forum! I'll follow your log with greatest interest.

Thanks :D
jeff_lindqvist wrote:Is there a similar recommendation for elementary lessons (before intermediate)? If Chinesepod follows the [language]101 format, I could never stick to that amount of lessons before moving to the next level (even though I don't know my so far studied Cantonese/Czech lessons by heart, I find the format boring as hell, due to the amount of English).

How many elementary lessons did you study before moving on?


Their recommendations are:
  • Novice: 50 lessons
  • Elementary: 100 lessons
  • Intermediate: 120 lessons
  • Upper Intermediate: 160 lessons
  • Advanced: 120 lessons
I started out with probably an intermediate vocabulary, but an elementary level listening comprehension. I think I studied 60 or so lessons before slowly adding intermediate lessons in. For a time I was doing an elementary lesson and an intermediate lesson a day or switching difficulty between days. By the time I got to 100 I was doing mostly intermediate lessons.

I've studied 88 intermediate lessons so far, and I still have difficulty with upper intermediate. One of the more relevant differences between the different levels is the language of instruction. Elementary is all English. Intermediate is one mostly English instructor and one mostly Chinese instructor. Upper Intermediate is one all Chinese instructor and another mostly Chinese instructor with only English for clarification.

I don't think I could only study Chinesepod either. It's a good supplement to Anki, reading, or when other hobbies consume most of my time. It's been a while since I've looked at other language podcasts, but when I did, I remember Chinesepod seemed a bit higher quality than others. They have video lessons, dialogues separated into sentences, support for Pleco and Skritter, extra examples, grammar sections, and exercises for each episode. They also have supporting content like their pronunciation course and tests to try to check your current level of progress. They aren't related to the other language-pod series in any way I know. The founder (no longer with the company) runs Mandarin Companion (graded readers) and All-Set Learning (creators of Chinese grammar wiki).
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jeff_lindqvist
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Re: sketchc89 language log - Chinese

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:57 pm

Thanks for a very detailed answer!
1 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

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sketchc89
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Re: sketchc89 language log - Chinese

Postby sketchc89 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:19 pm

I've written up my priorities for the next 4-5 months following this video by Lydia Machova from the Polyglot Conference.

Priorities & How to Make Progress (Oct 2017 - Mar 2018):
  • Listening comprehension
    • Complete Glossika daily
    • Listen to comprehensible input - Chinesepod, TCB audio, audiobooks, 喜样样 (Chinese cartoon)
    • Listening to Chinese radio during other tasks with Tunein
  • Speaking
    • Complete Glossika daily
    • Speak Chinese when walking dog with fiancee.
    • Complete Say It Right pronunciation series (Chinesepod)

I'll also keep up Anki everyday, but I won't add any new cards until after this period. Any additional study time I can get will be nice but won't be important relative to the above priorities.
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Re: sketchc89 language log - Chinese

Postby sketchc89 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:17 pm

Targeted Memory Reactivation

I haven't found useful information related to Glossika's algorithm. While researching this, I found a more interesting subject that has developed since I last heard about it.

Targeted Memory Reactivation (TMR) is the use of cues during one of the non-REM (NREM) phases of sleep to imporve memory recall more than a normal night of sleep.

The most relevant study[1] (paywall), showed an increase in recall for words when cues were played during NREM sleep. To explain further, the German test group was presented with Dutch vocabulary as a cue and the German translation as the answer while awake. When the Dutch cues were played during NREM sleep those words were remembered better (with a statstically significant effect size). Words that were not presented (uncued control words) did not get this benefit. An awake control group also did not receive a benefit. The memory effect has been reproduced by multiple groups.

Further research[2] (no paywall) by the group tested giving correct and incorrect answers after the cue. The result of the study was surprising that this completely eliminated the memroy benefit. The reason given was that additional auditory signals block the brain process that is involved in improving the memory. This was confirmed by playing an auditory beep rather than an answer. The benefits were blocked with this signal. A final group was given the correct answer after a silent period of 1.5s (as opposed to other groups 0.2s). This group retain the benefit but did not show an improvement over no feedback.

This area of research is still in its infancy, but I think its promising. Other groups have shown that other types of signals can be used (olfactory) and more theories of how this memory strengthening is occurring.

An idea I had was to write a plugin for Anki, that looks at all of the cards studied today, looks up mp3s that are used as cues (front of card), and concatenates them into an mp3 file that one could play during sleep. The research shows that the recording only needs to play during a short period during sleep, but I don't have a good way of targeting that and haven't found research to suggest the benefit will be blocked if played outside that window.

I also might try to slice up the Glossika files so that only the cues are played or to increase the space between cues and answers so that no blocking occurs.

1. Schreiner, T., & Rasch, B. (2015). Boosting vocabulary learning by verbal cueing during sleep. Cerebral Cortex, 25, 4169–4179. Boosting Vocabulary Learning by Verbal Cueing During Sleep. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24962994
2. Schreiner, T., Lehmann, M., & Rasch, B. (2015). Auditory feedback blocks memory benefits of cueing during sleep. Nature Communications, 6, 8729. https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9729
Boosting Vocabulary Learning by Verbal Cueing During Sleep. - Pub...
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sketchc89
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Re: sketchc89 language log - Chinese

Postby sketchc89 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:40 pm

Glossika Review (Day 8/182):

GMS - I've been following the 26-week schedule with 96k reps. This schedule calls for going through all of the A files as a first pass as you absorb the sound. I don't feel like I'm getting a lot out of the GMS yet, since I'm reasonably familiar with most of the vocabulary and sounds. The GMS A files go at a frustrating pace. The speaker isn't really too fast, but the time in between that's given to answer isn't long enough to answer without speaking over the speaker. I've moved to shadowing the speaker like I used to do with German Assimil. I'm reading along with the A files as instructed in the Glossika scheduling video, but I feel it's a bit strange with shadowing. Shadowing requires you to listen intently to the sounds, and I think reading along reduces its benefit. I hope that after this initial review period, the GMS lessons will be more useful. GMS-C is transcription which I've found is a useful exercise.

GSR - I really like the GSR system. The lessons are going at double the normal pace. I'm doing 3 GSR lessons per day. Day 1 is 2-5-6; Day 2 is 4-7-8, Day N n*2, n*2+3, n*2+4. The content is repeated within the lessons many times and between lessons. The trailing review lesson means that I can see progress after a very short period. Occasionally I'll get to a sentence that I can't speak in a natural way, but by the time the sentence has worked its way through multiple lessons I've done a decent job of making it sound more natural. I do the lessons right before lunch walking outside and after work.

Things I like:
  • GSR lessons drilling sentences until they stick
  • Lessons pushing me to speak more
  • Lesons pushing me to speak faster than I'm comfortable with
  • Schedule with a clear start and end that keeps me on track and gives me a daily list of tasks to complete

Things I don't like:
  • Spacing between English and Chinese is long for no reason, while the period for response is too short. I don't think the speaker says the sentence in that short of a time
  • Too much focus on names. A large percentage of early sentences use random peoples names. I could see some sort of utility if they were Chinese names, but they are names of people all over the world. I don't think it's useful to learn the Chinese name for Sanjeet, Victor, Malik, or Barbara. If I meet someone I'll ask their name. This just adds unnecessary complexity to the sentence.

Other updates:
Slowly working my way through intermediate Chinesepod lesssons. I have 60-some reviewed lessons that need to be completed before adding more new lessons.
My last new card in Anki was Monday, and the number of cards to review has very slowly started ticking down. Currently 136 cards/day.
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Re: sketchc89 language log - Chinese

Postby sketchc89 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:17 am

I suppose I should specify what I'm actually doing with Glossika since these types of programs (Assimil, FSI, etc) have official guidelines and variations when actually practiced. I've found Glossika's explanations of how to use the program kind of confusing. I've done the best I can to stick to the program as it was set out.

GMS-A: I read through the sentences first to get familiarity with the sentences. I then play the A file with the pdf in front of me while sitting or laying down. The English sentence plays, pause, the Chinese sentence plays, I shadow/repeat, the Chinese sentence plays I shadow/repeat. For very short sentences I'll have enough time between sentences to repeat after the speaker. For longer sentences I shadow so that my words don't run over the speaker's next sentence. I nearly always do both of the days GMS files back to back before GSR.

GMS-B & GMS-C: Haven't gotten to these yet so can't comment.

GSR - I have the lessons on my phone. I go for a walk and play the GSR file. The English sentence plays, pause, the Chinese sentence plays, I repeat after the speaker, continue for 20 minutes. I have three lessons per day. Depending on when I take breaks I'll get one or two lessons at a time and sneak the last lesson(s) later in the day.

Glossika is 40% off until Nov 12, 2017. I'm thinking about getting the rest of the Mandarin materials, and possibly Spanish (useful in US) and German (unfinished business). Though it's hard to imagine I'll ever finish learning Chinese, I'd like to have the courses before they stop selling the old content.
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Re: sketchc89 language log - Chinese

Postby snowflake » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:25 am

sketchc89 wrote:Too much focus on names. A large percentage of early sentences use random peoples names. I could see some sort of utility if they were Chinese names, but they are names of people all over the world. I don't think it's useful to learn the Chinese name for Sanjeet, Victor, Malik, or Barbara. If I meet someone I'll ask their name. This just adds unnecessary complexity to the sentence.


It's not about memorizing the Chinese name for Malik, etc....it's about being able to remember names that you just heard and repeating those as needed. This becomes important when say asking for directions as those inevitably will include street and perhaps landmark names which you've never heard before.
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