Languid Language Learning

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garyb
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby garyb » Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:27 pm

French would certainly give a head-start for Italian. Learning only by comprehensible input wouldn't be my choice but it's an interesting experiment! Whenever I get back to Spanish I'm planning to mostly focus on input for the first while, although I've already learnt the basics through more conventional study so it's more to reinforce/improve them. If you think you have time to fit in another language then why not, it's a good way to pass the time after graduation and delay entry into the real world.

To be honest, quality versus quantity in output is a big unanswered question in my own under-construction language learning philosophy. Should I just go out and try to speak and write as much as possible? Or should I do less speaking and writing, but focus more on doing it well? I don't know. I think both have their merits, a bit like extensive versus intensive input. Quantity gets you more used to it and at ease, and quality helps you to do it better. If I'm writing a diary or a forum post, or doing self-talk to work on my speaking, I'll do it slowly and focus on precision. If I'm chatting to friends or sending text messages I'll focus on getting the message across and worry less about mistakes. My perfectionist side has its uses if I can keep it under control!
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astromule
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby astromule » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:27 pm

Hi Elenia! I've read your complete log here. So you also did FSI Swedish? :) Have you used Rivstart at some point? Currently I'm studing from there, as I plan to take the Swedex B2 exam next year.
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Elenia
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby Elenia » Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:38 pm

@garyb - I haven't really had much luck with audio courses in the past, to be honest, so the experiment might be something of a waste of my time. But, then again, I might learn from it. I think after the experiment, even if I haven't made much headway with the language in question, I should have developed a few new tactics for dealing with and learning from audio. Well, I can hope that will be the cae.

I think you're right about the quality versus quantity thing. In languages especially, it's rarely ever 'either/or'. It's more a case of knowing what to do, when. I think I am viewing the output I log for the challenge as something I can spend time on because their is less pressure to get a message across than when I am talking directly to someone. Then again, I guess I can get out a large quantity of things while trying to make it the best I can: passing time and delaying entry into the real world!

@astromule - I've used FSI Swedish, but I've only studied the first Five Units. I have done some of the later units, but I haven't really studied them in any depth. I have never used the Rivstart series, how do you find it? I'm rather reluctant to spend money on coursebooks, as I don't really have a very large income. But I feel I need to improve my grammar significantly.

---

So, goals-wise, I have had a completely unproductive weekend. I went out on Friday evening with a couple of friends, which resulted in a Hangover all of Saturday. And yes, it deserves the capital letter. To be honest, I must have been a bit sick anyway, as by Saturday evening, I still felt awful, with a back ache, neck ache, arm ache, cold chills and a fever. Completely unpleasant.

HOWEVER.

I managed to speak a lot of French! On Friday, we met two Frenchies in the bar we went to, and I had a good conversation with one of them. And then on Saturday, my dad had a barbecue which the Mauritian family friend naturally came to. So, I got to speak with his girlfriend a little bit more. I have spent to day mostly resting and recovering from not being able to eat anything at all yesterday, but hopefully by tomorrow I'll be back at the top of my game (err...) and getting those goals like nobodies business.
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Expugnator
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby Expugnator » Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:43 pm

Just a couple of words: the point of adding audio to your studies is not just of practicing listening; it is for the memory as well, as we know when you get both audio and text the possibility of retaining the new words seem higher. At least it's been the case for me. (Not to mention what people already said about audio helping you get focused on the text instead of just letting your eyes move through the page as we tend to do even in native language after some minutes).
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Cavesa
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby Cavesa » Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:55 pm

Thanks for reading tips, my favourite Mature and Sensible Human! :-D

I'd say Swedish is actually one of the worst languages for a learner with limited income, and I am speaking as a student who struggles far less than many others here. I could quite easily afford to learn German or Spanish even if I didn't pirate a thing, but Swedish? The courses, native input, delivery fees, traveling, everything is so damn expensive! It's not just the number of natives what causes that, other languages of similar size are much less of a problem, from what I heard. At least the good looking grammars (Form i Focus or something like that) and courses can be found on the internet, the rest is lost as the Swedes are obviously so rich they don't pirate. The Swedish tvs do not share quite anything good with people watching from abroad (they should learn from Spain). Really, I'd say it would be interesting to put together a list of langauges sorted by the money you need to pay to get far. The Scandinavians probably wouldn't fare that well (I heard quite the same complaints from a friend in love with Norwegian language. Even fewer eshops, and not all ship abroad, even huger prices.)

Thanks! It is good to know I am not the only failure with Pimsleur and such things. I need both audio and writen text when I start a language. Audio only material doesn't stick and I feel threatened and uncomfortable all the time! If you find a way to get through the bloc though, I'd be excited to learn from you.

Have I noticed it correctly you're considering Italian next?
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Elenia
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby Elenia » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:27 pm

@Expug - audio with something does help - LR is one of the best things I've ever done. But I have never quite managed to learn from audio alone. I think with this experiment I'd want to go completely Bakunin and see how far I get before I crash and burn. Hopefully, I will work out an effective or semi-effective strategy before that happens...

@Cavesa - no problem, you paragon of responsibility and Pratchett :D I hope you find something interesting among them all :)

Hmm, I've never really tried to spend money on Swedish, or any other language (the £23,000 or something I spent on uni aside). I'm pretty happy with what's available for Swedish, although the dearth of professional, native iTalki tutors is a sad thing indeed. As for TV... well, SVTPlay does sometimes have a few gems, but I think TV4Play is a much better bet... it isn't free, however. However, I have an awesome site for Swedish TV and (mostly American) foreign TV with Swedish subs. If you're interested, drop me a line ;) There are also a good few sites devoted to helping Swedes and learners with grammar, which is nice. (Not that I ever look into them in great detail, as grammar makes me break out in cold sweats...!) There is also a really cool (but also paid) audiobook site, which I think I have mentioned before. But, otherwise, I would love to see that list! I would also like to see where my hitlist languages come on it!

And yes, speaking of the hitlist, Italian does seem to have wormed its way in... I've been messing around with it a little on duolingo, but I think if I study it in detail, I'll try LR for the bulk of my acquisition. I feel I've already seen to much written Italian to make it the subject of my audio experiment...

---

Also! I have actually managed to cross off another item on the hitlist. As of this evening, I have watched half an hour of Kaamelott. Success!

EDIT: off/of error
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arthaey
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby arthaey » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:39 pm

Elenia wrote:@Expug - audio with something does help - LR is one of the best things I've ever done. But I have never quite managed to learn from audio alone.

Do you have experience with audio + written at intermediate or advanced levels? Whenever I something in both audio and written formats, I feel like I "should" just listen, because it's the more challenging skill for me.

OTOH, I don't care to listen to things even in English; I'd much rather read. So... I'm torn between doing what I obviously "naturally" prefer, vs doing harder L2 tasks to challenge myself.
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Elenia
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby Elenia » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:52 pm

@arthaey - not really. Like you, I tend to prefer reading, so in my only true intermediate/advanced language, I have never used both text and audio. That does exclude using transcripts for TV series, however, I tend to study/read those separately from the actual series, as I tend to read automatically, even when I don't need to. I think you needn't feel like you have to listen only at any level. Expug said that audio can help with memorisation of different things, which I have certainly found to be true. I think it stands to reason that having a text can also help with aural comprehension in some way, also. Perhaps, if you want to test or develop your skills, alternate between having a text and pure listening. Expug does this with television, I think (please correct me if I'm wrong), and I also do this with Swedish, where my comprehension is quite high. I alternate between watching things with subtitles or without, or listening to an audio book with text and without. That way, I can see how well I can follow the audio without the text, and I can also use the text as a reference point to see what things I have missed, and to see if I can pick them out on a second listen (which I usually can).

I have also started throwing myself in the deep end with native podcasts. It's easier for French, as well it should be, but I'm also finding that I'm not doing too badly with Swedish, either. Being able to follow along with absolutely no transcript is a massive confidence booster, and I find that I understand more than I expect. It also helps to really pay attention to what you're hearing, and to work hard to figure out the sounds. When you know there is a written source to fall back on, it can be easier to let the unknown's slide, but knowing there is no safety net can help enormously. If you really do have an aversion to reading along while listening, maybe try doing this instead?
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arthaey
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby arthaey » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:58 pm

Good point on alternating between audio and text for the same content — I might do that when I start "El tiempo entre costuras".

It's funny you should mention podcasts, because they are, in fact, the only audio content that I'm content (heh) to listen to without wishing I were reading instead.
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Expugnator
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9931
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby Expugnator » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:03 pm

You're right, I alternate in order to benefit from the pluses of each of these techniques. Cavesa does so as well.
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