aaleks's log

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aaleks
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Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Languages: Russian (N)
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:45 pm

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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aaleks
Blue Belt
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Languages: Russian (N)
x 1910

Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:52 pm

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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luke
Brown Belt
Posts: 1243
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:09 pm
Languages: English (N). Spanish (intermediate), Esperanto (B1), French (intermediate but rusting)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16948
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby luke » Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:21 pm

aaleks wrote:I've been thinking of my experience of learning to write in English.

So. The first four (four and a half) years it was only reading and listening/watching tv. At the time I decided to start working on my writing skills my comprehension of English, both listening and reading, was at a reasonably high level. I had to use some 'external' clues for that, like: "I usually watch this programm in Russian, thus this is the Russian language", "This is the series I watch in English, so this is English", and the like.

When I found out that I had a problem with so-called 'basic grammar' I felt like I failed at everything.

Obviously you didn't fail. You're a great writer.

Curious what experience it was that made you "find out you had a problem with so-called 'basic grammar'".

I guess I learned, too, that I didn't know much about grammar in English, but it just made me think grammar was pretty useless. (not that there isn't sometimes an explanation as to why you "say it this way"). Just as a kid though, when I already knew how to speak and read and understand pretty much everything, grammar seemed theoretical and to only provide benefit to the teacher as justification for a red mark here and there, which could have been just a "I didn't read this after I wrote it so didn't notice I was connecting two unconnected thoughts and this isn't how I'd do it if you had just asked me, 'is there a better way to write this?'". Obviously. Don't "make typos", or "have the keyboard fail you", or "in the midst of creativity, you may want to reread your stuff, because once in a while you write something that you wouldn't write if the whole thought came to you at once", or "sometimes when you revise your writing, you miss changing a tense or pluralization or something". (back in those days we didn't have keyboards, but you get the idea).

aaleks wrote:I didn't understand how it could happen - how could I understand everything and failed the basics?.. or could I?

There's an assumption, or common knowledge, that you don't need to know the grammar of the TL really well to understand the language, the way you need to know it when you use the language actively - for speaking and writing. I used to think it was true but now I think that I should add one more word for this assumption - consciously. You don't need to know the grammar at the conscious level to understand the language but that doesn't mean you don't really know the grammar.

I find your observation here very interesting. In some videos on psycholinguistics and language learning, the youtuber (language professor making the videos for his peers) reiterates the conclusion that "grammar knowledge is pretty much gone after 1 year (it visibly fades in months)

So, there it's making me wonder if it's best to spend some time "away from grammar" before one wants to start the "output", writing or speaking. Give the "explicit rules" some time to fade.

You also remind me of a distinction Helen Abadzi brings up between "implicit" and "explicit" memory. One can think of those as "conscious" versus "unconscious". By the way, she holds the "unconscious" knowledge in higher esteem. It's more valuable. It's a habit. You're brain has changed and automated the rules and not just learned some rules.

aaleks wrote:So, after four years of consumption of English media I couldn't help but have the grammatical system of the language kind of bult in my head. Or how would I understand the language otherwise? That construction might have some flaws yet I believe it was mostly the correct representation of the English grammar. When I decided to start from the basics, meaning learning the grammar from textbooks aimed at langauge learners, I ruined that system and basically started all over again as if I was a beginner. Ironically, instead of improving and progressing I made a huge leap backward - from somewhat advanced level to a low-intermediate one.

This reminds me of another idea from those psycholinguistics video. The notion of "internal representation". They say that language is too complex to be accurately and completely described by any book.

They say the "language acquirer" - through input - though, can learn these "too complex because there are a gazillion exceptions" rules. And without tons of input, they cannot be learned.

aaleks wrote:I'm not blaming textbooks or the explicit grammar learning approaches per se for that regress in my skills though. At least, that's not my point. The point is that I should have approached the textbooks differently. Not as someone how's just starting to learn a new language. No matter how advanced the textbook is or how great they explain the rules the model of the grammar you will find in it is a simplified one. It should be simplified because it is meant for beginners, or at best intermediate learners. So if I were to give advice to myself four years ago I'd say - be careful with textbooks and the grammar rules' explanations. Your goal is not to learn the grammar but bring the knowledge of it from your subconscious to your conscious mind. Trust your feeling of the language and context more than textbooks but sometimes the textbooks may be right so keep it in mind.

This is interesting. Sometimes I wonder what the use of grammar is when you have advanced skills. I guess it might put a small "hook" in your memory, but I'm not even sure of that.

So I struggle with how much attention to pay to "grammar rules". Obviously, they're better than nothing, but they're not necessarily better than implicit knowledge.

I'm reminded of an idea from FSI with respect to grammar. Their general rule is, "how do educated natives say it"? If educated natives typically violate the rule, then they teach it how natives say it, rather than how a grammar book says it should be done.

Reminds me of the "split infinitive" rule I heard my fifth grade (about 11 years old at the time) give us. Basically, don't split the infinitive.

But it's violated all the time and never sounds odd. "To boldly go where no man has gone before". ("to go" with a word in the middle).

I once heard a sensible explanation of why that rule is not good. This was many, many years later: English is not Latin.

I guess your conclusion is that grammar rules are suggestions, but trust your informed instinct?

One super important thing in your story is that you did 4 years of input and had input down cold. (for anybody who doesn't read well and is thinking about "fossilized errors").

aaleks wrote:I'm not sure how I'm going to go about learning to write in French though. I have some ideas but they may not bring any results. So I'll wait till or if I have some result before I'll share them. That means I may have another rather long break from posting in this log.

I'm super curious about this too. I tend to share my thoughts in my log, knowing I will probably revise them along the way.

But sometimes, I think of something and then forget the good idea I had. The log is useful for reminding me of the good ideas that may have been undeveloped or untried, but should still be recorded for fun and posterity. :)

And don't get me wrong. I have an advanced grammar book in the bathroom which I've been reading over the last few days while I've been "meditating".
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aaleks
Blue Belt
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Languages: Russian (N)
x 1910

Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:14 pm

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
4 x

aaleks
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Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Languages: Russian (N)
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:44 pm

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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luke
Brown Belt
Posts: 1243
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:09 pm
Languages: English (N). Spanish (intermediate), Esperanto (B1), French (intermediate but rusting)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16948
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby luke » Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:18 pm

aaleks wrote:In one of the earlier entries of the log I posted a text that was written a month later (February 2017). So anyone curious can see what my writing looked like back then :)

You remind me of an old jingle that went, "you've come a long long way".

I'm reluctant to post a link to the commercial. Virginia Slims commercials didn't age as well as their catchy jingle. (at least it was catchy to a kid back then). :)
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aaleks
Blue Belt
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Languages: Russian (N)
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:24 am

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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aaleks
Blue Belt
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Languages: Russian (N)
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:02 pm

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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daegga
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17055
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby daegga » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:03 pm

I think they mistakenly switched B and C in the total, same for my result https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 20#p194832
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aaleks
Blue Belt
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Languages: Russian (N)
x 1910

Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:33 pm

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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