aaleks's log

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Le Baron
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby Le Baron » Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:19 pm

aaleks wrote:For instance, reading. Another idea about babies learning the first language is that they get corrected by their parents all the time and that how they end up speaking the grammatically correct language. I don't remember being corrected by my parents or other adults, and in those cases when I got corrected, I either did't care, or just got annoyed. I believe that kids simply pick up the way their parents speak while correction plays a secondary role. Either way, what really improved my Russian was reading.

Yes indeed. The idea children only learn from their parents is misguided anyway. At that point you've basically only learned to mirror your parents' world; especially if you're an only child. Most of the real language learning happens when we reach school age and mix with different people, being exposed to unfamiliar input and interactions. Plus reading...
aaleks wrote:Even though I don't think my vocabulary was good enough to fully understand Les Trois Mousquetaires by Alexandre Duma when I was 11 but I like the book. My vocabulary grew and my ability to express myself improved without me even noticing that was happening. And then I've seen the same effect of reading on my English, and now French. If there is a magic bullet in language learning, to me it is reading. No Anki or any other SRS can beat the effect reading has on the size of my vocabulary.

Time and reading. It's difficult to be able to look back and appreciate how much actual time went into reading and accruing all those words and structure from reading. Then recognising some of these in language around you (on TV too). There is one thing I'll say about childhood reading vs reading as an adult language learner. When you're a 10 year-old kid and you start really reading you're already functional in the language, it's a boost. As an adult learner you're only becoming functional alongside trying to accrue vocabulary whilst having one or more language you can already use for functionality. This is more or a hindrance.
aaleks wrote:By the way, kids not always such a sponge as many tend to think. I've read at least a couple of stories of young kids moving to a new country and struggling with learning/acquiring the language of the country. They eventually learned the language but it was not so easy for them as their parents and other adults had expected.

A fair point and true. Also because, like above, they already have a means for communication. It would likely depend on how much they needed to communicate in the new language and how much exposure they had. Put into an 'international school' while papaaah is stationed overseas, and speaking largely English usually doesn't cut it.
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aaleks
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:45 pm

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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aaleks
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Mon May 03, 2021 11:49 am

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Le Baron
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby Le Baron » Mon May 03, 2021 3:23 pm

I agree. The C1 and C2 Dutch exams are the only upper-level exams I have taken for a foreign language. Others have been intermediate. Right now I don't much care about exams as a measure of competence, but tests can be useful for feedback. I feel that I am good at Dutch, since I use it every day, and have done day-in-day-out for many years, in all key areas. And yet...I make mistakes. It's not a problem because most are minor

In the job I previously had (in a university) I was faced with the issue of self-assessed competence of students more than one based upon official levels conferred by exams. Nevertheless several students had taken various forms of exams in English to qualify them as C1/C2, but it didn't always translate to written competence. What can you do though? They have the paper certificate and are usually orally competent to some level or other (sometimes very competent) so it always looks like nitpicking.

In general English as a foreign language usually fares quite well in terms of people picking up natural types of structures, because of the large amount of informational content out there. However you can always detect when someone is not a native user of a language and sometimes the structures are glaringly obvious. To me on a general level I don't care all that much; so long as people communicate effectively, but at the time I felt some of these students (and staff!) were rather deluded regarding their actual competency.

I don't think the CEFR is a bad system and people who work for the exams and succeed likely work very hard indeed, but perhaps it does mislead people into believing they are now completely on a linguistic par with natives.
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby gsbod » Mon May 03, 2021 4:26 pm

I agree too. If you need an assessment of somebody's language ability and you don't have the time to get to know them, an official language exam with the appropriate CEFR level is probably the best tool available, which is why these exams are so important for things like immigration, education and some jobs. But if you aren't aiming to live, work, or study abroad, they become a lot less relevant.

I also agree that describing C1 as "near native" is incredibly misleading, at least for those of us who hold ourselves to high standards. These days I prefer to think of it as a level that would enable you to live, work, or study through that language, as long as you are willing to deal with a bit of a learning curve and some friction to start with. It is an incredibly useful level to have, and full credit to everyone who has achieved it, but you won't be fooling anyone into thinking you are a native speaker.
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aaleks
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Wed May 05, 2021 1:45 pm

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby rdearman » Wed May 05, 2021 2:40 pm

aaleks wrote:I read once that when you really reach the native like level native speakers stop complimenting your English because they don't care anymore, they forget that you're not a native. I don't know to what extent this is true but there's something in it.

I think this is true, I have 2 neighbours one French and the other Italian. They have both lived in the UK for more than 40 years, and although they have an accent I do not simplify my speech nor do I expect them to misunderstand me. I don't complement them because my expectation is that they will understand everything that I say. In multiple conversations with them about any number of topics I have never had to explain a word they didn't know or slow myself down. This is different from when I am having conversations with Italians or French people via Skype. Although their level of English is very high, higher than me in their languages, I frequently need to explain grammatical issues with their sentences and to slow down when speaking to give them some chance of understanding me. I have said to them "Your English is very good." but didn't add the caveat ("for someone who is learning and doesn't live in an English-speaking country")

My neighbours would not be mistaken for natives simply because of the accents, but they are still C2+ (more like C10+, just not native).
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:57 am

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby luke » Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:14 pm

aaleks wrote:The order in which the acquiring of words and grammar structures happens more likely depends on the frequency and the content used.

I want to finish this post by mentioning one of the mistakes I did when learning English. I never used extensive reading. Of course, I rarely look up words in a dictionary now but I won't call it extensive reading. I think if I'd used extensive reading in the first years of my English learning I would've had a better grip of the language and its grammar, and maybe a wider vocabulary.

That first bit there is the best definition of "natural order" (hypothesis) I've ever seen, and I've looked.

I like the style of your log. Your writing is excellent. I want to add, since when I wrote the preceding sentence of this paragraph, which I'll put in blue, because I respect you, that I hadn't yet read that you don't like getting this sort of compliment.

What I mean when I say it is that is "your writing is fluent and easy to read". That's what I mean. I may only say this to non-natives who are better than most. Also, it's in situations where I've picked up somehow that they're not sure how good they are. It's not an empty compliment or "buttering somebody up".

So I added the edit so you don't just think, "what an f-ing jerk". It's what I said in the previous paragraph, which I composed after reading a bunch of your log, but had stopped just before your three points.

Back to reading more of your log :) Need to hear what you said in the last post.

And thanks for tip there at the end. I can identify with you and things that work for you or you think might work for you or might have worked better. They may do the same for me. :)

P.S., I like using tricks like color and bold and all that stuff. It can help communication. (from my "most things are not black-and-white" perspective).
Last edited by luke on Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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aaleks
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Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:41 pm

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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