aaleks's log

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4957
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17549

Re: aaleks's log

Postby Cavesa » Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:57 pm

I was just labeled a flatearther and a Napoleon-like crazy revolutionary yesterday and today :-D Just because I simply pointed out that any piece of research must be taken with a grain of salt, that there are differences between the research and its application, and that the advanced learners are perfectly capable of actually applying some of the research (like the "four strands") intuitively better than many of the teachers. :-D (btw there are whole textbooks on that grain of salt in medicine, called for example "Lecture critique d'article", and medicine research is much less vague than humanities. Really, many people in the humanities should get a course on what does real research and reading about it mean. They should be much better at discussion and critical thinking than us, that's the purpose of opting for a humanities degree, isn't it? But unfortunately, many teachers think that the only way to "be educated" is to adore uncritically the authorities. That's rather sad.)

Some teachers passionate about language teaching and learning are solid and interesting members of the LL communities online. But there are also those expecting to be taken for authorities, despite the whole existence and popularity of these forums proving that a language class is no longer the main or best way to proceed. Unless they are also learners (many of them are not), I honestly don't know what they are doing in such comunities. They just demand their egos to be fed, nothing more.
2 x

aaleks
Blue Belt
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Languages: Russian (N)
x 1910

Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:38 pm

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4957
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17549

Re: aaleks's log

Postby Cavesa » Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:55 pm

Yes, that is a shady way to recreate a forum. I have nothing against teachers' forums, of course they are a good thing, it's just useful to not mix various purposes and public together without a clear announcement of the change. If they are hostile towards the successful learners, then perhaps they should have opted for their own graphic style (at least different colours, and named it visibly like "efl teachers forum.ru"

Some of the complaints and criticisms towards the advanced learners remind me of the historical anecdotes of people worried that cars would be too fast and dangerous. Of course the horse carriage drivers were interested in spreading these :-D These teachers will hopefully be mostly out of jobs in the next few decades, just like those horse carriage drivers.

Well, my discussion with the "teacher" on the other forum is finally at its end. They even managed to understand and answer some questions, they are a language learner too, afterall. But still, they are incapable of distinguishing the research denial (that's what they accuse me of) from criticism of its implementation and its blind spots and bias (which is what I am really saying). But they are getting ridiculous, now with claims that they've gotten thousands of students to C1/C2. :-D

But what was more worrying: perhaps their obsolete attitude that "feedback is just one of four equally important strands in a language class" is widely spread. And perhaps this is one of the reasons behind learners' disappointments, behind all those "majority of the time in class was wasted just on coursebook exercises" experiences. Yes, learners like me tend to mention mostly anecdotic "evidence", but only because nobody bothers to really research the independent learners, few people research the needs of the advanced learners (and usually in a very flawed way), and we are in general being dismissed as dumb kids that just don't realize how awesome the teachers are. The fact most of them are just ignorants doesn't seem to bother anyone.

Honestly, it only motivates me to get a few more languages to C1/C2, to prove I am right. More anecdotes to share :-D And I am glad for all the anecdotes, that have helped me reach my goals much more than any teacher!
2 x

aaleks
Blue Belt
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Languages: Russian (N)
x 1910

Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:47 am

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2 x

aaleks
Blue Belt
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Languages: Russian (N)
x 1910

Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:24 pm

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
4 x

User avatar
overscore
Orange Belt
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:49 pm
Location: Belgrade
Languages: English, French, German, Serbian.
Levels vary. Native is fr-ca.
x 227

Re: aaleks's log

Postby overscore » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:26 pm

Cavesa wrote:Yes, that is a shady way to recreate a forum. I have nothing against teachers' forums, of course they are a good thing, it's just useful to not mix various purposes and public together without a clear announcement of the change. If they are hostile towards the successful learners, then perhaps they should have opted for their own graphic style (at least different colours, and named it visibly like "efl teachers forum.ru"

Some of the complaints and criticisms towards the advanced learners remind me of the historical anecdotes of people worried that cars would be too fast and dangerous. Of course the horse carriage drivers were interested in spreading these :-D These teachers will hopefully be mostly out of jobs in the next few decades, just like those horse carriage drivers.


A long time ago there used to be elevator operators in every building in New York City because of public demand due to widespread fears of the technology. You'd get in and they would push the button for you. Eventually the operators formed powerful unions that probably contributed to a lot of urban legends of elevators falling down – until eventually the practice went away; probably displaced by more terrifying tech like the automobile.
2 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4957
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17549

Re: aaleks's log

Postby Cavesa » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:39 am

aaleks wrote:I read the Reddit discussion mentioned before :) . Well... I think I gave too much credit to that "teacher" in the post above. The whole discussion reminded me of the ones I'd had on efl.ru. All that I-am-a-teacher-so-I-will-speak-and-you-should-listen attitude.

Yes, the person even lost track of what we were actually disagreeing on. :-D The problem is, that such a person can get so intense that one even starts to doubt themselves. That's actually their whole point. But I am used to much stronger opponents in the psychological warfare. Because that's what this is! (Yes, I've just started a sentence with "because". On purpose :-D ) The person in this conversation had nothing to add, they weren't even addressing my main point. They got totally ridiculous, when they started claiming that high quality input for the advanced English learners is hard to get without a teacher :-D :-D :-D Not sure whether this idea is more ignorant or delusional.

Yes, being a teacher is not easy, and teachers often don't get enough respect. But the reason are not people like you and me, actively learning. The main reason are people like what we see in these discussions (and in the offline world too). People focused on proving they are superior but without having the knowledge or other skills to support that. People incapable of a normal discussion. People totally out of touch with the reality of our century.

...I mentioned another teacher who got offended when I disagreed that C2 is the level of a native speaker, and also said that a C2 level could deteriorate with time without some maintenance (reading books, watching tv). Back then, while we seemed to disagree on everything - she believed that a language should and could be learn almost exclusively from textbooks of all kinds, and saw consuming native media (books, tv, etc.) as something non-important and not-really-contributing to the learning process - but still I respected her achievement. Reaching a C2 level, passing CPE with a good score - is still a big deal. ... she seemed to not have a feelling for the language. In that post that I read yesterday she'd write in a rather unnatural way. And there's no surprise considering her views on (not)impotance of tons of input in learning a language. What's a surprise, though, is that she's actually spent a year in the US as an exchange student when she was 15. Why, while staying there, she didn't pick up a natural way of saying/writing things in English is a mystery to me.


No mystery. She was probably much more focused on textbooks than the real life even in the US. In any case, she probably hasn't been getting enough input since, due to underestimation of the importance of both the input and the maintenance.

There are also huge differences between English and every other language people learn. We often talk about the tons of English input and also practice available to everybody and the relative lack of the same stuff in other languages. But it is true about the textbooks too. So, if you choose to get to the CPE the more textbookish way, totally dependent on classes and teachers and textbooks, you actually can. It is a worse way, the people are missing out on not only enjoyment but also some kinds of skill. It is also a more expensive path. But it is possible.

There is no other language with that many textbooks for C1 and C2 learners, that many support tools, and also that many teachers at least trying to address the advanced learners. We may agree that they are often doing lots of things wrong (I wish I wasn't too lazy to look up that awesome thread by Reineke with research links), but the teachers of the other languages are often not even trying. They refuse right away and believe the nonsense that "C2 is only for people, who have lived in the country or have a foreign wife/husband". Both of these extreme positions are wrong.


As I've written earlier I left efl.ru. One of the reasons why I wrote the post about the "mean teacher" was burning the bridges. I didn't expect the discussion that followed, and that it would serve as a kind of antidote for me. In the post I wrote in Cavesa's log I said that I lowered my expectations, lowered the bar, so to speak. But after this discussion I've started to think that maybe I'm not such a loser, English-learning-wise, as I used to think :roll: . Maybe there's still a hope for me, I mean my English, to improve? :D


You are already very good. And of course you will improve over time. There is no ceiling, no point at which we are "done with learning". It is a bit of a scary thought, which may be one of the reasons for which people love to believe the "C2 is native" nonsense. You're welcome. Don't return there, it sounds like a toxic community, that doesn't have much to teach you

edit:fixed a typo
3 x

aaleks
Blue Belt
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Languages: Russian (N)
x 1910

Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:26 pm

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1 x

aaleks
Blue Belt
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Languages: Russian (N)
x 1910

Re: aaleks's log

Postby aaleks » Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:51 pm

del.
Last edited by aaleks on Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
7 x

Beager Eaver
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:30 pm
Languages: Russian (N), English (C2)
x 2

Re: aaleks's log

Postby Beager Eaver » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:20 pm

Hello, aaleks! Glad that I found you here.
I finally left that pathetic excuse for a language learning forum. Should have done so a long time ago, really, but it was the only place that I used to talk about and around English learning in Russian, so I got somewhat addicted to it over time. Harking back to the past few months, I realise that my comeback was a mistake after all. The place has become a drain on my time, and it's kind of dried up as a resource for me as a language learner. Hope I'll become a more permanent resident here.
2 x


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bombobuffoon, guyome, themethod and 2 guests