Drp9341 is (accidentally back) in POLAND for another year!!!!

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Saim
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Re: Drp9341 is (accidentally back) in POLAND for another year!!!!

Postby Saim » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:26 am

cjareck wrote:If you say that "our" leftists are "moderate" compared to the west, I am a little shocked.


It depends on what you mean by "leftists". Adrian Zandberg is probably to the left of Bernie Sanders and more or less at the same point as Jeremy Corbyn, whereas Robert Biedroń is to the right of all of them. Obviously actual anarchists and communists are just as left-wing in Poland as anywhere else, and they're probably more marginal than in most of the rest of the EU.

If by "leftists" you mean supporters of PO and Nowoczesna, and people without party affiliation but somewhat to the left of PiS, then yes they're on the whole more right-wing than most comparable people in Western Europe and the bluer parts of the US.

cjareck wrote:Remember that PiS is not on the right-wing of the political scene.


I know this is all somewhat arbitrary and relative, but conventionally PiS is right-wing. If PiS is left, where does that leave PO? And where does that leave Razem, to the left of not only PO, but also to its coalition partners within Lewica? And where does that leave extraparliamentary groups like Rozbrat, Związek Syndykalistów Polski and Czerwony Front, who are substantially to the left of Razem?

They are rather like NSDAP - national-socialists.


PiS are not national socialists. They're just illiberal conservatives (i.e. conservatives, but not liberal conservatives). Raising taxes a bit and giving people 500 złoty for having kids doesn't make you a nazi (nor does it make you a social democrat for that matter; social democracy is mostly predicated on universal programmes funded by the state, not cash-in-hand payouts to the citizens themselves).

drp9341 wrote:but then prioritizes welfare


In what instances?

overscore wrote:That is also true of the west, even more so probably. Last year alone Canada saw 300,000 new residents - mostly from Asia -- that's equivalent to an entire Kashubia. The French language and catholic culture will probably die or become marginal within my lifetime.


TIL Asians are genetically incapable of learning French.
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Re: Drp9341 is (accidentally back) in POLAND for another year!!!!

Postby cjareck » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:41 am

I don't want to make this a political discussion, especially that this is not my log ;) As stated many times, I am conservative.

Saim wrote:If by "leftists" you mean supporters of PO and Nowoczesna, and people without party affiliation but somewhat to the left of PiS, then yes they're on the whole more right-wing than most comparable people in Western Europe and the bluer parts of the US.

PO i left-centre and "Nowoczesna" is surely lft. No doubt about it.

cjareck wrote:Remember that PiS is not on the right-wing of the political scene.


Saim wrote:I know this is all somewhat arbitrary and relative, but conventionally PiS is right-wing. If PiS is left, where does that leave PO? And where does that leave Razem, to the left of not only PO, but also to its coalition partners within Lewica? And where does that leave extraparliamentary groups like Rozbrat, Związek Syndykalistów Polski and Czerwony Front, who are substantially to the left of Razem?

No PiS i "centre-right", PO is "centre left". "Nowoczesna" is surely left. Communists are just radical leftists. I don't even know those extraparliamentary groups. I'm not interested in politics. Because of that, I am not influenced by political correctness and just call the thing as they are.

Saim wrote:
They are rather like NSDAP - national-socialists.


PiS are not national socialists. They're just illiberal conservatives (i.e. conservatives, but not liberal conservatives). Raising taxes a bit and giving people 500 złoty for having kids doesn't make you a nazi (nor does it make you a social democrat for that matter; social democracy is mostly predicated on universal programmes funded by the state, not cash-in-hand payouts to the citizens themselves).

Liberal? In which sense? Economical? Whole EU has a socialist economy... The clerks decide how much milk a farmer can sell. It is more socialist than before 1989. Economically they are surely socialists.
The role of the state is not to help its citizens, but not to disturb their activities. The idea of taking money from those who are working and trying to increase their income and to give them to those who ofen are not interested in working surely is not liberal but socialist. And you know, I have five children so I earn 2500 zł from PiS policy.
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Re: Drp9341 is (accidentally back) in POLAND for another year!!!!

Postby Saim » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:07 am

cjareck wrote:PO i left-centre and "Nowoczesna" is surely lft. No doubt about it.


And yet Nowoczesna is against 500+ and wants to lower taxes (and wants a flat tax rate, contrary to the progressive tax proposed by Razem), as well as loosening labour controls and protections ("Likwidacja nadmiernych przywilejów związków zawodowych", "Karta nauczyciela nie powinna dłużej chronić tych, którzy do tego zawodu się nie nadają"). Surely according to your criteria for pushing PiS left, this would push Nowoczesna to the right? And if Nowoczesna is "left", and communists are "radical left", where does that leave Razem?

Liberal? In which sense? Economical? Whole EU has a socialist economy... The clerks decide how much milk a farmer can sell. It is more socialist than before 1989. Economically they are surely socialists.


I don't know what this has to do with what I said. I said PiS is not liberal.

Again, it depends on what you mean by "socialism".

[*] Stalinists (and some Trotskyists) consider "socialism" to be a transitional phase between capitalism and communism, where the state is run by a Stalinist (or Trotskyist) political party.
[*] Anarchists and non-Stalinist communists generally consider "socialism" to be the same thing as "communism" (as did Marx and Engels).
[*] For social democrats, "socialism" is a state with universal social services and progressive tax rates, often with certain major industries and natural resources owned by the state. Price controls and cash handouts can be part of it but are not a defining part of the system.

If you define socialism as any state that engages in any sort of price controls, directly gives anyone funds (heck, even Hayek supported UBI and I don't think anyone would consider him a socialist), or raises taxes at any point, then pretty much all states are socialist and always have been. But those aren't policies that define the belief system of people who actually advocate for socialism.

Now, just to be perfectly clear: I'm not the kind of person who thinks that words should only have one definition or meaning, but this definition is not the commonly used one, certainly not in political science in any case.

The role of the state is not to help its citizens, but not to disturb their activities. The idea of taking money from


Sure, that's you're belief. I'm not disputing this (I don't care what anyone on this forum thinks about the state or free markets), I'm disputing your terminology. As you said, we should care more about accuracy than twisting terminology to fit our ideals ("political correctness").

Just to reiterate: I'm not discussing what states should do, what policies or values are correct.
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Re: Drp9341 is (accidentally back) in POLAND for another year!!!!

Postby overscore » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:54 pm

Saim wrote:If you define socialism as any state that engages in any sort of price controls, directly gives anyone funds (heck, even Hayek supported UBI and I don't think anyone would consider him a socialist), or raises taxes at any point, then pretty much all states are socialist and always have been. But those aren't policies that define the belief system of people who actually advocate for socialism.


I don't see anything controversial in the highlighted bit, that is certainly the working assumption of the conservatives. From our point of view, modern states (before that privately owned kingdoms were the norm in Europe) were violent and bloody since their very birth during the French revolution – the reign of Terror – which was a bit like Pol Pot's regime, and the defining characteristic, all belief systems aside, is a monopoly on power/force/the guillotine.
An example in Europe of a non-state could be Switzerland.
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Re: Drp9341 is (accidentally back) in POLAND for another year!!!!

Postby Saim » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:42 am

overscore wrote:I don't see anything controversial in the highlighted bit, that is certainly the working assumption of the conservatives. From our point of view, modern states (before that privately owned kingdoms were the norm in Europe) were violent and bloody since their very birth during the French revolution – the reign of Terror – which was a bit like Pol Pot's regime, and the defining characteristic, all belief systems aside, is a monopoly on power/force/the guillotine.


This sounds more like anarchocapitalism or minarchism than mainstream conservatism (embodied by parties like the UK Tories, for example) to me.

An example in Europe of a non-state could be Switzerland.


If you define the state according to whether there's a monopoly on force Switzerland is just like any other state. You just like the way this monopoly on force is wielded: i.e. fewer social programmes, more decentralisation to the federal units, than other comparable countries.
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Re: Drp9341 is (accidentally back) in POLAND for another year!!!!

Postby overscore » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:22 pm

Saim wrote:
An example in Europe of a non-state could be Switzerland.


If you define the state according to whether there's a monopoly on force Switzerland is just like any other state. You just like the way this monopoly on force is wielded: i.e. fewer social programmes, more decentralisation to the federal units, than other comparable countries.

Niet. The population is armed and funding of the upper federal level depends on the continual approval of all the cantons. Further, ask 100 europeans and not one of them could name the head of state, because there isn't.
anyway, this is getting off topic and bringing politics into this forum is not something i want anymore. apologies to the log owner for the noise.
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Re: Drp9341 is (accidentally back) in POLAND for another year!!!!

Postby cjareck » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:39 pm

overscore wrote:anyway, this is getting off topic and bringing politics into this forum is not something i want anymore. apologies to the log owner for the noise.

I agree with you also on this point! ;)
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Re: Drp9341 is (accidentally back) in POLAND for another year!!!!

Postby drp9341 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:56 am

Saim wrote:.


How do you stay up to date with polish politics? I now can finally understand without needing to make it "studying" what they're talking about, obviously with some little help from a dictionary and a google search, but I haven't found anyone good or interesting. I'm talking about alternative media not something mainstream. Like a guy with a webcam or something along those lines. Are there any of those that aren't wackos or just plain dumb?
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Re: Drp9341 is (accidentally back) in POLAND for another year!!!!

Postby drp9341 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:19 am

Saim wrote:.

overscore wrote:anyway, this is getting off topic and bringing politics into this forum is not something i want anymore. apologies to the log owner for the noise.

There’s no need to apologize, this is fun!

cjareck wrote: I agree with you also on this point! ;)


Im enjoying watching this take place, if it’s not against the rules, SERIOUSLY, have at it!! We’re discussing something relevant to anyone who is learning polish. it even got me listening to some guy who supports konfederacyja on YouTube last night!!..

It’s entertaining and a nice change, this was becoming essentially a place for me to talk about my feelings. Thank you for not allowing that to happen haha.

Polish politics is quite different than US politics. Anyone who says knowledge of politics is not related to language either knows little of what it takes to learn a language, or is completely unaware of the fact that in a democracy politics and the things Politicams say are representative of the culture to a level that not as trivial as you may assume lol.

So don’t stop on my account, have at it. I look forward to seeing more interesting posts!

I wrote this on my phone so there’s bound to typos and half sentences lol
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Re: Drp9341 is (accidentally back) in POLAND for another year!!!!

Postby cjareck » Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:11 am

drp9341 wrote:I'm enjoying watching this take place, if it’s not against the rules, SERIOUSLY, have at it!! We’re discussing something relevant to anyone who is learning polish. it even got me listening to some guy who supports konfederacyja on YouTube last night!!..

Well, I see that you adopted some conservatism already because you wrote konferedacja, as it would be written at the end of the 18th Century ;)
I think that Krzysztof Bosak has excellent videos. He is very brilliant and always is ready to respond quickly. Many people don't support his views, but no one accused him of a lack of knowledge or intelligence.

A friend of mine told me - this is supposed to be a quotation from Winston Churchill - "You may not be interested in politics, but it doesn't mean that sooner or later politics will become interested in you." Nevertheless, I try to avoid political discussions.
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