Poland, Italy, and then back In New York after years abroad

[StringerBell]

I would have started using the Busuu app, after I completed Babbel. Aside from that, I don't think I would have done much differently. If I could change myself so that I was a robot, then I would been 120% faitful to Anki, but that's not possible.

I've never heard of Busuu; is it like Duolingo (which I hate incidentally) or is it different? Why do you think using it early on would have made a difference?

[garyb]

I had no idea Busuu was still around! I used it almost a decade ago and it was like a crappier version of Duolingo, very much in the "school textbook" style of teaching: lots of semi-useless vocab in thematic units before important basic structure. It did have some social features though, and encouraged learners to chat with natives to practise the material after each unit, but few actually did. It's probably changed since back then though!

[drp9341]

Hello everyone!

I have "studied" Polish for precisely 0 hours, 0 minutes and 0 seconds since Monday September 3rd. I actually clearly remember the last time I studied Polish, and it was on September 3rd, on the subway home from work.

This new job as a teacher is eating up almost all of my time, and definitely all of my energy. They say your first year teaching is hard, and it really is. I have had to learn how to manage the classroom, work the technology system, which textbooks to use, which activities to choose, what I can do when a student rebels, etc. Unfortunately, 50% of my classes are with one class of 7 year olds. I like kids, I simply hate teaching 7 year olds for 4 hours in a row.
--- erased to protect identity ---

In terms of languages...
I've been so focused on getting better at my job, (#1. so that I can keep it, and #2. so that it becomes easy enough that I can balance studying other languages on top of it.) that I haven't been able to study at all. However, my Polish supposedly has "really improved."

My girlfriend says that in short conversations, where there's minimal opportunity to make a grammar/vocabulary mistake, that you can't tell I'm not Polish. Also, I had a few, (3) experiences in the past month where after a short conversation with someone I just met, they ask where I'm from, and then proceed to tell me something along the lines of, "wow how'd you learn Polish? When we first started talking I didn't realize you weren't Polish." This makes me really happy. It means that I can work on other things more, and less on pronunciation. I don't actually want to loose my accent. I want "good" pronunciation, but since I don't have any plans to use Polish professionally, I don't see a need. I also look Polish, so when I would speak Polish to Poles outside of Poland in the past, they would always speak Polish back to me, and usually ask something like, "where were you born" or "where are your parents from." Living in NYC, even as a kid, old people have always spoke to me in Russian/(other eastern European language) if I'm in an area where there's a lot of immigrants from said country.

So... What have I done with Polish since September 3rd?
1. I speak to the secretaries, lunch ladies, accountant, the school manager, and the janitors in Polish if the kids aren't around.
2. I have usually 2-3 hours a day free, where I have to stay at the school. I spend this time in the teachers lounge. The Polish teachers there aren't interested in practicing their English with me, since there's lots of other teachers who don't speak a lick of Polish, (despite being in Poland for years and years.) So I spend a few hours a day usually listening to the teachers talk, and I often join in on the conversations if I'm sure I know what they're talking about. Plus, they often explain lots of stuff to me in Polish and we talk about problems/solutions etc.
3. listening to kids speak Polish all day long.
4. Other immersion related stuff, like using the language for pretty much anything that requires speaking to people.


Accidentally seriously improving my Spanish?
1. So I finished watching all 3 seasons of El Ministerio del Tiempo I started in the middle of August. I used it to take a break from lesson planning / school related stuff. (i.e. Plan for 90 minutes, watch one episode, plan for another 90 minutes.)
2. Hanging out a lot with some Spanish friends, who correct my Spanish when we hang out in exchange for them asking me questions about English and trying to speak to me in English.
3. Staying in daily contact via Whatsapp voice messages with a good friend who's native in Spanish with a god-given talent for hearing even the most minor errors.
4. Taking lessons with a Spaniard friend once a week to work on the subjunctive, (and other verb tense things,) + correcting me when I use Anglicisms, or say things in a "weird way.".*
*** I'm always skeptical of these corrections, and double check with my other friend who's lived in Latin America and Spain, and knows the language, (and it's regional variants,) better than anyone I've ever met, (this is seriously impressive for me. I've had friends from Venezuela and Argentina who taught Spanish but didn't notice that, "si te gustaría aprender inglés conmigo, me encantaría ser tu profesor." is completely incorrect when they watched a video of me saying it, (I was with the Venezuelan when watching it, so I know it isn't just a case of "yeah I watched it." when in reality they didn't.

For now, my goal with Spanish is to learn to express myself using international vocabulary and idioms. A lot of expressions and jokes that I want to make, use Rioplatense, Mexican, or Dominican words/expressions. I noticed this whenever I drink with the Spaniards.

I don't have problems understanding any dialect of Spanish unless it's super heavy. I spent a lot of time studying, and socializing with Mexicans, El Salvadorians, Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, and Buenosairenses. Chilean Spanish is pretty hard for me, and so is strong Andaluz, but that's about it. However, I have yet to master any dialect so thoroughly that natives cannot loose me if they really try. Maybe Rioplatense, if the speakers are my age, but if they're older, they can easily loose me.

So my goal is really my production. I want to change my Spanish so that I don't have to modify the language depending on who I'm talking to. I know I'll sound a little strange, but I'm confident that if I want to, I could easily switch back into a dialect if it was necessary, (i.e. moving to a Mexican neighborhood in NYC when I go back to NYC in a few years.)

I also noticed, that people no longer assume I'm from Latin America. A couple of weeks ago, I was headed to Krakow and I overheard a Spanish couple discussing what they needed to do when they got to Krakow, and they were utterly lost. I started talking to them and we ended up chatting and having a real good time for about 2 hours. They mentioned a few times how they really like the way I speak. They said it wasn't completely Latino, but it wasn't Spaniard either. They said they would have no idea where I was from and would have no idea if I was a native or not.

The truth is, I'm not really exposed to Latin American Spanish anymore. I watched a documentary about Julio Cezar Chavez the boxer the other day and the Mexican accent sounded so weird! I understand why my father, (he's native in Italian, and learned decent Spanish in American Public High-School, and speaks "Espaliano" pretty often on construction jobs,) says that Spain Spanish is super easy for him to understand. It took me a good 10 minutes to adjust back to Mexican Spanish, for the first 10 minutes I couldn't hear every word, maybe only 80% or so if the boxers/non-newscasters were speaking.

I'm not going to try to to change my pronunciation at all. I'm also definitely not going to start speaking with a lisp. I'm just to going to focus on the grammar etc. and see how I end up sounding in a few months.



HOW I'M GOING TO STUDY POLISH UNTIL MY WORK BECOMES LESS DEMANDING.
I have a book that my girlfriend gave me, it's the script from a play, an it uses a lot of slang. Slang is a big "knowledge gap" for me, in terms of how often the use of slang causes me to not understand something I would have understood otherwise.

My girlfriend really isn't super enthusiastic about helping me learn Polish, even less so now since I can pretty much do whatever without too many problems. HOWEVER, she loves this book. It's quite short, and I am going to continue going through it, marking what I don't understand, and having her explain it to me. This is something small and manageable. I'm going to aim for 3-5 pages a day, (depending on the difficulty,) until work calms down. This should be manageable, and it's a good way to study Polish, WHILE spending time with my girlfriend. She loves that I'm reading a play. She's all about theatre and the performing arts. This way I kill two birds with one stone: I can spend time with my girlfriend, AND study Polish
***I don't count speaking, watching TV/movies, or socializing studying, (unless I'm taking notes and reviewing them later.) To me, this is just using the language, which is very important, but considering the complexity of the Polish language, if I ever want to approach something like C1 in the next few years, and take the CEFR exam, I need to actually study, and not just cruise at my current level allowing mistakes to fossilize.****

[DaveAgain]

Also... I'm not sure how smart this is for me, but whenever the kids come to snitch on another kid for doing something minor and harmless, I always remind them that no one likes a tattle-tale, (the 3 bi-lingual students translated this expression so many times that they all know the word "tattle-tell" now.

If anyone with some experience teaching elementary school can chime in, please let me know if this is a good idea. Often times, they snitch on their classmates because they lost a game, or because they are mean and want to get the kid in trouble for whatever reason. These kids have absolutely no street smarts, and grow up in a bubble. I think in terms of helping them grow into mature, socialized adults, I need to teach them that it's not smart to tell on your classmates. Also, when kids cry and I have to take them to the nurse, I always tell them, "Don't let anyone see you cry, if you need to cry hold it in until you're away from the other kids, be strong and don't let people see you as weak."

I'm not a teacher, but I think this is a bad idea. You don't have to act on the things the kids tell you, but if you discourage them from reporting wrongdoing they may not pass on information about things that you would want to act on.

[drp9341]

Also... I'm not sure how smart this is for me, but whenever the kids come to snitch on another kid for doing something minor and harmless, I always remind them that no one likes a tattle-tale, (the 3 bi-lingual students translated this expression so many times that they all know the word "tattle-tell" now.

If anyone with some experience teaching elementary school can chime in, please let me know if this is a good idea. Often times, they snitch on their classmates because they lost a game, or because they are mean and want to get the kid in trouble for whatever reason. These kids have absolutely no street smarts, and grow up in a bubble. I think in terms of helping them grow into mature, socialized adults, I need to teach them that it's not smart to tell on your classmates. Also, when kids cry and I have to take them to the nurse, I always tell them, "Don't let anyone see you cry, if you need to cry hold it in until you're away from the other kids, be strong and don't let people see you as weak."

I'm not a teacher, but I think this is a bad idea. You don't have to act on the things the kids tell you, but if you discourage them from reporting wrongdoing they may not pass on information about things that you would want to act on.

Thank you. I know what you mean. I need to walk a fine line.

[lingua]

I'm not a teacher either so I have no advice. However, you might want to rethink posting all that verbiage specifically about the kids since this is a public forum.

Since you are speaking to other teachers in Polish why not look for advice from them? Carefully, of course. What are the norms in Polish regarding tattling on others? I know the US has a strong taboo against it but I'm not sure about other countries.

[drp9341]

I'm not a teacher either so I have no advice. However, you might want to rethink posting all that verbiage specifically about the kids since this is a public forum.

Since you are speaking to other teachers in Polish why not look for advice from them? Carefully, of course. What are the norms in Polish regarding tattling on others? I know the US has a strong taboo against it but I'm not sure about other countries.

I erased it all. That's a good idea. Instead of posting this all here, I'll just ask one of the teachers! I swear I've lost IQ points since I've started this job.

[sillygoose1]

Cool to see another UN language learner here.

From what I've gathered in regards to your profile and other posts, you most likely grew up how I did (Italian immigrant parent(s) in an urban area) so I know what you mean about the crying and snitching thing. I'm not sure how it is in Poland, but there are new boundaries that are being imposed where teachers can get in trouble for suggesting things like that if the kids tell their parents. Best bet is probably just let the kids know that they can trust you and just deal with the problems they come to you for.

[drp9341]

Cool to see another UN language learner here.

From what I've gathered in regards to your profile and other posts, you most likely grew up how I did (Italian immigrant parent(s) in an urban area) so I know what you mean about the crying and snitching thing. I'm not sure how it is in Poland, but there are new boundaries that are being imposed where teachers can get in trouble for suggesting things like that if the kids tell their parents. Best bet is probably just let the kids know that they can trust you and just deal with the problems they come to you for.

Close enough
I know a lot of it is due to my upbringing, but I feel I'm doing them a disservice by not advising them that snitching / running to an authority figure every chance they get isn't good. It's bad for a number or reasons.

#1 they won't learn how to handle things on their own. I don't mean fighting and straight out confrontation, they should know what to do, (without needing to run to an adult,) if they don't like the way things are. What's going to happen if they're on their own? Or if the authority figures present aren't trustworthy/ don't have their best interests in mind.

#2Kids wont want to be their friends. Maybe in their society things are different, but I don't think it can possibly be that different. It's human nature to distrust someone, and want to keep some distance from, someone that runs to an authority figure and cries injustice on a whim, in an attempt to get people in trouble. It shows the person has no ability to handle things on their own, and it shows that they will throw someone under the bus, justified or not, if it suits them in the slightest.


Also, I've offered bonus points to some kids if they can hold back their crying until their peers are out of range. So far it hasn't worked. A good portion of them seem to have parents who are as uninvolved as possible. They don't have a community. They don't have anywhere to learn what's respectable and what's not. They only have school. It's sort of dystopian.

I need to figure out what the "snitching" culture here is. I'm fairly sure though that crying in front of your peers, daily, for insignificant reasons, is never good. That has to be cross cultural.

[reineke]

I just finished reading a sad story about a 13-year-old Polish boy who took his own life after being bullied for looking "gay". He was beaten but he pretended to have a stomach ache so as not to "snitch".

Young kids are more likely to tattle. Later it becomes a social no-no. I don't think Polish kids are different in this respect.

“In early childhood, it’s normal for kids to share social problems with parents,” says psychologist and school consultant Michael Thompson, author of Best Friends, Worst Enemies: Understanding the Social Lives of Children. At times, they legitimately need our help resolving disputes and soothing hurt feelings.

But by second grade, inviting adults into social conflicts is clearly not cool. Perhaps because this is also the age, around 7 or 8, when a child has the ability to distinguish between what does and doesn’t need to be told.

“Kids who tattle get labeled – tattletale, squealer, snitch – and left out,” says Thompson. Bringing infractions to an adult’s attention sets your kid up for friendship failure.

Tattletale kids

...Parents may assume kids tattle because they don’t feel empowered to stick up for themselves, says Fran Walfish, a child and adolescent psychotherapist in Beverly Hills, California. That’s not true.

“Kids tattle because they’ve developed a strong sense of right and wrong and they start policing other people,” says Walfish. Tattletales suffer from an overdose of conscience..."

The most prominent reason is a developmental stage called “rule-governed behavior.” Somewhere around 5, kids begin to understand there are rules to be followed – but they don’t have the capacity to distinguish between major and minor rule-breaking. The result is that every broken rule is brought to an adult’s attention.

How to respond

It seems obvious: Giving attention to a child who tattles will only reward her for it. But experts say parents shouldn’t dismiss kids’ reports or tell them to “Get over it.” Sometimes, kids just want a safe place to share their concerns.

“Kids won’t say, ‘I need you to listen to this and be outraged on my behalf and then do absolutely nothing,'” says Thompson, “but 90 percent of the time that is what they want.”

Here are nine tips to help you with your little tattletale:

Consider motivation. Look at what prompted the tattling. Is the child speaking up because he knows a rule has been broken but hasn’t developed the cognitive skills to understand when it’s important to and not to tell? Does he lack the social skills needed to resolve problems on his own? Kids also may tattle if they feel something is unfair, to get another child in trouble, for attention or approval, or for deflection.
Brush aside but don’t boot..."

Metro Parent

"Children are unrepentant tattletales. And when your kid’s big mouth tosses the blame at your feet, it’s tempting to chalk up their bald-faced honesty to self-preservation. Why did your son tell your wife that you broke that fancy dish? Because he was afraid she’d blame him! But a new study in Social Development reports that children tattle even when they know they cannot be blamed for a transgression. The results suggest kids tattle to reinforce social norms, not to save their own skin.

“Children tattle about third-party moral transgressions even when they cannot be held responsible for those transgressions, suggesting that children’s tattling serves cooperative rather than self-serving functions,” according to the study. “This highlights the impressive ways in which children enforce moral norms and thus help maintain cooperation.”

https://www.fatherly.com/health-science ... le-snitch/