Willkommen im Schlaraffenland [DE, FR, JA, NO]

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DaveBee
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Re: Willkommen im Schlaraffenland [DE, FR, JA, NO]

Postby DaveBee » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:16 pm

schlaraffenland wrote: What I'm most irritated about (aside from my own self!) is simply the fact that I will now have to wait an additional eighteen months to proceed with my plans to apply to German universities, given how absurdly long it seems to take to grade this exam. I'm aiming to try the C1 again next June. Eighteen months is not the end of the world, in the grand scheme of things, but I'm also not twenty years old, and it is frustrating to have a thing stand between my goal and me which is as uninteresting as it is necessary for progress.
Sorry to hear about your troubles.

Does your french language qualification have to be a DALF? A TCF exam just measures your competence, so you don't fail it, you just get a grade. Perhaps that could save you some time?

Scotroyene took one recently as part of her Quebec adventure.

https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 705#p21687
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Re: Willkommen im Schlaraffenland [DE, FR, JA, NO]

Postby schlaraffenland » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:28 pm

DaveBee wrote:Sorry to hear about your troubles.

Does your french language qualification have to be a DALF? A TCF exam just measures your competence, so you don't fail it, you just get a grade. Perhaps that could save you some time?

Scotroyene took one recently as part of her Quebec adventure.

https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 705#p21687


Thank you for the tip!

I'm still trying to establish what qualification the relevant universities will want to see -- some of them are surprisingly vague about this -- but I've proceeded on the assumption that the more academic the exam is, the better. I plan to write to the universities in the new year to get in writing what exactly they'd like to see from me before I invest further time or money in a particular direction. I'll ask them about the TCF as well, thanks to your suggestion.
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Re: Willkommen im Schlaraffenland [DE, FR, JA, NO]

Postby Maiwenn » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:14 pm

I don't know what you're planning on studying, but most of the programs I've seen only require the TCF. The catch with the TCF is that its results are only valid for two years. It can, however, be knocked out in an afternoon and, as DaveBee said, it can't be failed. :) It evaluates what your level is in listening/reading comprehension and then, optionally, you can sign up for your speaking and writing to be tested (likely, this will be necessary for university applications).
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Re: Willkommen im Schlaraffenland [DE, FR, JA, NO]

Postby schlaraffenland » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:47 pm

It's time to get back on the wagon. I think I have a far better idea now of what I need to do, the tools with which to accomplish it, and the timeframe within which to do it all. I'm working on writing up the numbers for my year in review, plus what I hope to focus upon next year. The most pressing thing remains French. So, without further ado, I will set down my...


French Attack Plan (January to mid-June 2018)

  • Complete the Langenscheidt Grundwortschatz Französisch. I estimate that I have about 1,500 words left to review, and a lot of them are silly ones that I've known already for decades, like la voiture or le sel. I should be able to get through this list in the first four or five months of the year, if not more quickly.
  • Do one lesson daily from Vocabulaire progressif du français - Niveau perfectionnement. Each lesson is a dense but compact two-page spread. If I've counted correctly, and if I keep up a good pace, I could hope to finish the book also within four or five months. I will queue up useful expressions and put them into Anki for later practice.
  • Do one lesson daily from Grammaire progressive du français - Niveau perfectionnement. These lessons are also two pages each, and at a decent pace, I hope to finish by April or May. (Sure will be a relief once I hit the Spring and can check several of these things off my list....)
  • I picked up a very interesting vocabulary builder a couple of weeks ago, Mots et contexte : Thematischer Oberstufenwortschatz Französisch, which seems like a particularly good resource for preparing for the DALF exams and the requisite thematic vocabulary sets. I will begin looking at this book in the middle of Spring, after finishing the Grundwortschatz Französisch above, to pick up any terms I haven't yet seen.
  • I got a great little volume of French proverbs and idiomatic expressions, the title of which I can't remember for the life of me (and which I so far cannot find on Amazon or Fnac, either). It, along with the two preceding works, is actually still en route to me here at home, since I shipped them from Germany about a week and a half ago. I'd like to learn perhaps fifty of the expressions in the book in the first half of the year. (Do I even know fifty idiomatic expressions in English?)
  • Consume about four hours of AV per week. Man, I really don't like this one, but it's got to be done. I'll draw from Netflix series, France Culture podcasts, France 24 broadcasts, and so forth.
  • Aim to read 10-20 pages per day (a novel or two per month). I'm doing at least the January Tadoku in French.
  • In March, when the DALF C1 looms ever nearer, start up again with my test-prep book and the book that gives guidance for writing the synthèse.


It sounds like an awful lot, and maybe it is. But I feel it's actually more the case that there are a lot of sources here, none of which is so intense when split into such tiny chunks over a period of a couple hundred days.

And -- heh -- I realize that there is no speaking component to what I have set for myself. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it in my test-prep book. This is a tangent for another post, but in essence, I have discovered in the past few months that I dislike speaking almost to the point where I loathe it. I'm not afraid of it. I'm told I'm not bad at it. But I practically hate it, no matter what the language (including English!). That will not change with practice, since my dislike does not stem from fear or unfamiliarity -- think of a person who simply hates folding laundry, for example. So, to make things a little easier on myself while I grind through the above, I'm going to permit myself to ignore speaking, confident in the knowledge that my voice will re-emerge on cue according to necessity in a few months' time.
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Re: Willkommen im Schlaraffenland [DE, FR, JA, NO]

Postby schlaraffenland » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:24 am

2017 in Review

Here are some quantitative data and some comments to wrap up 2017...

GERMAN
5,789 pages read.
9,612 minutes of AV consumed.
[In fact, these numbers come from the Super Challenge and include several hundred pages and a few hours of AV consumed at the end of 2016. But I did the bulk of the work during 2017.]
589 words learned.


FRENCH
1,672 pages read.
4,469 minutes of AV consumed.
2400+ words (re)learned.


JAPANESE
Learned to identify and write 2,200 kanji.


Good stuff:
I completed the Super Challenge in German a few months early, despite a late start, and I completed a half challenge in French for audiovisual materials. I didn't hit my vocabulary goals for either language, but I did get more than 50 percent of the way there in each case. I really enjoyed the Super Challenge and, on the assumption that one will be issued again in a few months, I want to sign up to do a double challenge for French. I feel that this would give me the boost I need to be on very solid footing in the C1+ range by the end of 2019.

I finished volume one of Heisig's Remembering the Kanji earlier this evening! Woohoo! All 2,200 kanji are floating around in my brain somewhere at this point (I hope). I had not believed that I could realistically learn more than 2,000 this year, especially given that I started late. This may be only the second thing in my life where I've said, "I'm going to do a thing," and then I did that thing. No, honestly, the first time must've been when I said, "I'm going to learn German" a few years ago. I really don't have a lot I can look back upon with pride in life where I can say that I set a goal and completed it. So it's nice, and rather stunning, to have a second thing, and to be able to say, "I couldn't do this thing twelve months ago, and now I can." I can also appreciate that I really did improve. I found by accident last month a few sheets of practice paper from my earliest days, the first twenty or so kanji listed in Heisig, and they looked really laughable to me -- clunky, out of proportion, more like something an earnest kid had drawn in imitation of the characters. I think it helped a lot that, almost without exception, I used a fude pen to learn and practice. (I took six fude pens and nearly 500 sheets of kanji practice paper to France for the Fall, and I don't regret it.) Well, now I can do what I had promised myself for 2018 and go buy RTK 2.


Lessons from the school of hard knocks:

1. Classes are not for me. I have been trying to escape this uncomfortable truth for a few years now, but it really hit home this Fall. I have had good experiences in language classes for adults about 65 percent of the time, objectively speaking: great teachers, wonderful fellow students who become good friends in many instances. Yet I still find that classroom time is among the least efficient ways for me to learn, for a variety of reasons, and I should refrain from enrolling in any more classes unless I can be certain I've mitigated the issues I've identified. (A few ways in which to set the bar: classes should be abroad, in the country where the language is spoken; should be intensive instruction; should not occur in the morning; should only be for a language about which I'm already wildly passionate, and never for a language I dislike or about which I'm only lukewarm.)

2. I've also figured out, to my surprise, that I just don't like talking. In general. It should've been obvious a lot sooner, since it applies to English for me as well. I really enjoy listening to others speak: my favorite bits of class in the Fall were the times when we went around and had an open discussion of a particular topic. But I always loathed the moment when someone noticed that I hadn't said anything. I would much rather listen for an hour than say a word. It's not shyness, and it's not fear; curiously, I found that even when the topic revolved around an area of academic expertise for me or personal passion, I had absolutely zero desire to contribute anything. I knew how to formulate a cogent contribution, but I just didn't want to. Leaving psychology aside, I think that the main enjoyment I derive from learning languages is that of understanding. Not speaking, not necessarily reading or writing, but simply developing the capacity to understand what is happening around me.
Anyway, I can't avoid classroom work 100 percent of the time, and I'm sure I'll find myself back in a traditional language course at some point or another. But I know now a little better how to get around such courses' shortcomings, and I know all too well what my own shortcomings are in this arena.

3. The audio-lingual method is probably not for me. This has been my discovery in the course of working with Assimil Norwegisch. I'm not claiming at all that it hasn't been effective -- in fact, I am impressed at its return, given how little effort I put in. But I constantly feel out of touch with the language for the simple fact that I haven't done much writing in it. I feel grounded only when I can write and drill grammatical concepts. So I probably need to supplement audio-lingual courses with a whole separate written course to feel like I am learning properly. Perhaps this just boils down to the discovery that I am not the sort of person who is able to do what Assimil promises on the tin and speak confidently at a B2 level after five months. Then again, I never put much faith in that claim to begin with.
This is all a bit dumb coming from a person who rushed to buy Glossika Cantonese in early November before the big overhaul, but I think Cantonese represents a loophole where audio-lingual makes sense for me: a language that I don't intend to learn to write and for which I don't intend to read literature at present. I figure that if I ever get serious about it, I can spend a year or two bridging the gap between the kanji and traditional Chinese, but that's a very low priority at present.

4. When my progress is stunted by health issues, there's not a lot I can do except to re-tool my learning schedule. No beating myself up for not learning all the vocabulary I wanted to learn this year, or for failing to be ready for my exam on a timeline that was insane anyway. There is no shortcut, no magic pill, no place where I can escape from such setbacks, I realize. And I must simply re-schedule based on the best information I have at any given time. I don't think my goals this year were too ambitious, but I also accept that there wouldn't have been any way to achieve them in light of the unpredictable life circumstances that emerged as of the late Summer and the Fall. So, that's that. Get up, calibrate, and go on.


Goodbye, 2017! I won't miss you, I've got to say. But I'm looking forward to doing my best in 2018.
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Re: Willkommen im Schlaraffenland [DE, FR, JA, NO]

Postby neuroascetic » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:24 pm

schlaraffenland wrote:...classes should be abroad, in the country where the language is spoken; should be intensive instruction; should not occur in the morning; should only be for a language about which I'm already wildly passionate, and never for a language I dislike or about which I'm only lukewarm.


I'm curious why classes should not be in the morning for you. Is it because you are a night owl, or is there another reason?
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Re: Willkommen im Schlaraffenland [DE, FR, JA, NO]

Postby schlaraffenland » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:14 am

ロータス wrote:Since you said you want to "developing the capacity to understand what is happening around me", what are you plans for Japanese? I see you finished RTK and plan to do RTK2 as well.

In terms of Japanese, I think it would be neat to be able to read the Shōbōgenzō and other Buddhist texts one day, maybe -- no joking -- in ten or twenty years. I'm in no rush! And I know I probably need a good 2,000 to 3,000 more kanji and special readings to make sense of Buddhist texts written centuries ago. But it would be awfully cool if it were possible someday. For now, I'm happy with various English and German translations of these classics. I haven't yet tried to read any sort of book in Japanese. My sister lent me a manga last week, and I'll try that, but I doubt I have the requisite vocabulary yet (I've only finished Minna No Nihongo I). Still, we'll see...!

neuroascetic wrote:I'm curious why classes should not be in the morning for you. Is it because you are a night owl, or is there another reason?

That's exactly it. I've lived in a few different timezones by now, and every time after the jet lag wears off, I find my sleep schedule invariably drifting back to where it wants to be. I feel much better rested when I sleep from 2am to 10am than if I sleep from 10pm to 6am. When work or school has required me to be awake consistently early, I end up feeling awful after a couple of weeks of not being able to fall asleep until 1 or 2am and needing to wake up at 5:30 or 6am, which is exactly what happened all Fall. I've tried light therapy, melatonin, various exercise schedules, etc. I've decided to stop fighting it during those periods when I am lucky enough to be able to set my own schedule, like now. It's just a bummer when I am on a traditional schedule and don't have much choice in the matter.
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Re: Willkommen im Schlaraffenland [DE, FR, JA, NO]

Postby schlaraffenland » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:15 am

2018 Goals

* Do everything outlined in my beastly French Attack Plan. This will take me through mid-June.

* Work through Heisig's Remembering the Kanji vol. 2 during the year. I won't have the book in hand until later this week, so I don't actually know how I will divy it up. I've read the introduction and the free excerpt and have some sense of what to expect, but I'd like to plan better once I have the whole work in front of me. I'm thinking I will probably make flash cards for the example vocabulary provided and learn the readings in context that way. I will tinker with this goal once I see the book. Perhaps I'll need eighteen months and not a year, especially given my French commitment; I just don't know yet.

* One page a day (or 300 pages by year's end) out of Hueber's Deutsch Üben series. I have volumes 4, 5, 6, 7, and 15, all in various states of completion. I bet I can finish at least volumes 4, 5, and 6 this year.

* I won't set specific goals as far as reading, listening, or vocabulary acquisition in German. I know I'll keep going back to those things for fun to distract myself from having to do so much French! I'll keep a page total and tally of words learned, just for statistical purposes.

* No new languages until after I take the DALF C1. :( I will make a hard push to remain focused through the time of the exam, then I'll re-evaluate. I bought a Provençal course that I'd love to tear into, bought Glossika Cantonese, and I could always go back to one of the back-burner languages that still interest me. One thing I do know: I definitely want Norwegian to have a place in my studies after June. I am excited that my Norwegian friends consider me "in" enough that they've started looping me in on group Snapchats or texts in Norwegian, which are good reading practice. I happened to spend a lot of the Fall around many Swedes, and I was delighted to find how I could often pull out the gist of what they were discussing thanks to Norwegian. It's worth investing in for these reasons and more, so I look forward to coming back to it.
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Re: Willkommen im Schlaraffenland [DE, FR, JA, NO]

Postby schlaraffenland » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:15 am

January 2018 Statistics

French
Learned 330 words.
Read 338 pages.
Consumed 1347 minutes of AV material.

German
Read 643 pages.

Japanese
Learned 140 on'yomi compounds.




Well... so far, so good, I guess? It felt like a pretty average January. Health has not been great, so I cut myself a lot of slack for that. In addition, it took a few weeks for my book shipment to arrive, so I was without my materials for a while and started later than I would have liked. Nevertheless, I find I'm way ahead of what I had planned in some areas (Japanese; German reading), and way behind in others (French grammar), the latter mostly due to avoidance. Until I summed things up, I didn't even realize that I had read 600+ pages of German this month. No wonder I didn't meet my 400-page goal in French. :lol:

I have also discovered, in the course of the French reading, that ebooks are probably not my thing. I do like being able to look up words on the fly, but the sheer fact that I'd have to sit there poking at my phone made me put off reading something that I am actually quite interested in. I don't think it's eye strain, either... I'm simply too fidgety to read something so long on my phone, and I like physical books way too much. (By comparison, the German reading this month was all in the form of paper books, and I always looked forward to that.)

Several items of good news on the French front. First, I may not have to sit the C1 on a specific timeline at all! And that... weirdly makes me almost want to try for it in June anyhow? We'll see after a few more months. I have also noticed two things quite without trying to improve: My listening seems to have become rather better, and I've transitioned to the stage where I don't have to concentrate desperately on everything in a radio discussion in order to understand it. Second, my French reading speed seems to have picked right up, and I would put it at perhaps 75 - 85% of my standard English reading speed for nonfiction at this point, provided that I'm reading extensively and not looking up words. That is a great improvement from four to six months ago, when I was not struggling, perhaps, but also certainly not sailing along. I credit combining intensive and extensive reading in the last six to eight months for this leap! And it's a relief to see demonstrable progress in that arena.

Japanese has been bruising, but not in a bad way. I picked up RTK2 as soon as I could get to the Japanese bookstore and spent a week or so familiarizing myself with its format. After surveying the state of things, I decided it would be best if I created my own Anki deck for the book, and I spent a few days thinking about what exactly to capture and review on the cards (Heisig's recommendations in the book itself lent themselves only partially to this purpose). And it has been going surprisingly well. Mostly. It has been an exercise in getting comfortable with a much lower retention rate than I'm used to for Western European languages, just as I found that I forgot tons of recently learned kanji while I was in the process of learning to write last year. (Now that no new kanji are incoming since a month ago, I find that my long-term retention rate has gone up to about 91%.) I think I just have to make do with a much greater rate of loss, unless I can figure out a more efficient way to retain the onyomi compounds earlier on. But I'm also not really concerned if I can't become more efficient. In other words, I am comfortable with getting a compound wrong six times, because I know it'll stick after then, even if I have no idea why I need to go through all that. Perhaps I just need to be hit upside the head with the compounds enough times, and then it works out? It's not an awesome feeling to see a short-term retention rate of 82% of on'yomi compounds, compared to (say) 98% for French vocabulary or 99% for German vocabulary. But that stopped bothering me in the last few days as I began to realize that "percentage wrong" was not something I should equate with "morally or intellectually deficient." For Japanese, it might be more accurately labeled as "percentage of compounds that are simply going to require several bouts of repetition, and that's OK."

I finally made myself a couple of cool signature progress bars. :) The two things I'm tracking are the two areas in which I'm most likely to fall behind without a little bit of accountability. I hope it works!
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Re: Willkommen im Schlaraffenland [DE, FR, JA, NO]

Postby aravinda » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:07 am

You have a solid French Attack Plan. :) And thank you for mentioning Mots et contexte: Thematischer Oberstufenwortschatz Französisch. Checking out that book, I found another nice book, Phrases-clés pour l'écrit et l'oral: Französischer Wortschatz für Textarbeit und Kommunikation from the same series. Unfortunately, I can't read German (yet).
schlaraffenland wrote:[*]I got a great little volume of French proverbs and idiomatic expressions, the title of which I can't remember for the life of me (and which I so far cannot find on Amazon or Fnac, either). It, along with the two preceding works, is actually still en route to me here at home, since I shipped them from Germany about a week and a half ago. I'd like to learn perhaps fifty of the expressions in the book in the first half of the year. (Do I even know fifty idiomatic expressions in English?)
Now as your books have arrived, can you tell us the title of this book? ;)
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