Sol's New Russian & Korean Log

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Sc27
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Re: Sol's New Russian & Korean Log

Postby Sc27 » Thu May 18, 2017 6:51 pm

Sol wrote:Also today on the way home from the gym I put on a Korean podcast called 두시탈출 컬투쇼 which was very...weird. It started off with the song "I like big butts and I cannot lie!" and the hosts started saying "mmm" creepily. Then they seemed to prank call people and I have no clue what type of podcast this was because they kept saying 개 which is a swear word, right?


From how I interpret it, the "mmm" part likely means that they are agreeing with something that someone had said, like "mmm, I see".

I also don't understand 100% as well, but from how I see it, they are calling random people to see if they can complete a 속담, or a Korean proverb. The part of the podcast that does this 'prank call' is called 행번행전. Each time they call someone, they start off with one part of a proverb, and the receiver must complete it. The proverbs can range from easy to difficult, and sometimes the MCs comment on how easy this one is, and other times they say they have never seen this proverb (before they call a person). If the receiver hangs up or due to some technical reason, or the call doesn't go through, or other various reasons, they sometimes tell the full proverb and what it means.

Anyways, this podcast is basically comedy. So it's supposed to be funny when you listen to it.
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Re: Sol's New Russian & Korean Log

Postby Sol » Thu May 18, 2017 7:07 pm

qeadz wrote:
Sol wrote:Also, a question on formality levels. Why do Koreans sometimes mix them even when they're talking to the same person about the same topic? So they'll be using the 요 form for one sentence, then go to 입이다. Sometimes they'll say something with the lowest formality level then repeat it with the 요 form. So for example:
- 먹었어? 먹었어요?


While I am not equipped to answer this question, the same thing was bugging me months ago and I spent a while looking up on Korean Reddit. I also asked my wife. Here are a variety of explanations I encountered:

- Sometimes it is a partial sentence and the remaining clause is implied in which case the sentence has not yet ended so the 요 isn't added.
- I've read from a number of sources (including my wife saying this) that 요 and ㅂ/니다 are the same politeness level (I always thought the latter as being a bit _more_ polite, but she tells me "where on earth have you been getting your Korean lessons from???")


:shock: :shock: If this is true it's a huge revelation haha! Every source I read says 입니다 form is much more polite than just 요.

qeadz wrote: - Some suggested 니다 is used when the sentence itself is more of a statement and isn't 'to' anyone'. eg: The rice has cooked.

I look forward to reading any answers you get to your question because I was never able to come upon a satisfactory explanation!

EDIT: Also I did catch my wife out when she told me they were the same politeness level. My immediate response was "Oh, so if I were talking to the CEO of my company I could use 요?" and she replied "NO! Of course not" (said as if it were self-evidently ridiculous). Never-the-less she insisted they were the same politeness level and interchangeable... except for that case I brought up. *sigh*.


Mm, this is an interesting topic. I've only recently started properly paying attention to politeness levels in the things I watch/listen to and this confused me. Though I remember before I started learning Korean I'd be able to catch 입니다 here and there and wonder what it meant since it was used so much! Well, I was watching a political-themed drama so that would make sense!
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Re: Sol's New Russian & Korean Log

Postby Sol » Thu May 18, 2017 7:09 pm

Sc27 wrote:
Sol wrote:Also today on the way home from the gym I put on a Korean podcast called 두시탈출 컬투쇼 which was very...weird. It started off with the song "I like big butts and I cannot lie!" and the hosts started saying "mmm" creepily. Then they seemed to prank call people and I have no clue what type of podcast this was because they kept saying 개 which is a swear word, right?


From how I interpret it, the "mmm" part likely means that they are agreeing with something that someone had said, like "mmm, I see".

I also don't understand 100% as well, but from how I see it, they are calling random people to see if they can complete a 속담, or a Korean proverb. The part of the podcast that does this 'prank call' is called 행번행전. Each time they call someone, they start off with one part of a proverb, and the receiver must complete it. The proverbs can range from easy to difficult, and sometimes the MCs comment on how easy this one is, and other times they say they have never seen this proverb (before they call a person). If the receiver hangs up or due to some technical reason, or the call doesn't go through, or other various reasons, they sometimes tell the full proverb and what it means.

Anyways, this podcast is basically comedy. So it's supposed to be funny when you listen to it.


Aaa, that makes sense now! Most of the people were confused or hung up, but one woman completed their sentence :D Sounds really interesting actually, I wish I could understand it all.
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Re: Sol's New Russian & Korean Log

Postby vonPeterhof » Thu May 18, 2017 9:05 pm

Sol wrote::shock: :shock: If this is true it's a huge revelation haha! Every source I read says 입니다 form is much more polite than just 요.

The way I've always heard it is that 입니다 and 요 are roughly the same in terms of politeness, but different in terms of formality. These two concepts are often used interchangeably when discussing certain grammatical and stylistic variations in certain languages, but you can see the distinction even in English. "Would you be a dear and close the window? Thanks, hon!" is reasonably polite, but probably not appropriate in a formal context. Whereas a sign saying "Private property; trespassers will be prosecuted" is quite formal, but not exactly polite. The key difference between 입니다 and 요 is that the former is formal and the latter isn't, but they're both fairly polite. Instead of thinking of Korean speech levels as a continuous ladder it might be more helpful to think of it as a grid with politeness on one axis and formality on the other.
Last edited by vonPeterhof on Fri May 19, 2017 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sol's New Russian & Korean Log

Postby qeadz » Thu May 18, 2017 9:36 pm

vonPeterhof wrote: Instead of thinking of Korean speech levels as a continuous ladder it might be more helpful to think of it as a grid with politeness on one axis and formality on the other.


Oh... wow. Yes. I *think* this mental image is just what I needed. Thank you!
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Re: Sol's New Russian & Korean Log

Postby AndyMeg » Thu May 18, 2017 11:41 pm

For language learning I always try to remember that the languages first evolved naturally and then people tried to understand and explain them in a systematic way that is what we call grammar. So the "rules" are never set in stone and are usually more complex (and context-dependent) that they may appear.

I'm just a beginner in korean, but I've read about it and I've also paid attention to this when watching k-dramas. As far as I can tell, the formality levels are part of a complex system that is dependent of many factors (like who is the person you are talking to, how old is he/her, how close are the both of you, what is the setting in which you are interacting, if you are directly talking to one person or if you are talking to a group, etc.)

The book "Using Korean: A Guide to Contemporary Usage" by MIHO CHOO and HYE-YOUNG KWAK says the following (I'll quote a few parts):

Style in Korean can be marked by sentence endings. There are two major types of formal endings (존댓말) and two types of casual endings (반말). Whereas 존댓말 signals general courtesy and the more formal use of language, 반말 connotes intimacy and informality.

It is often asserted that 존댓말 is necessarily ‘polite’ and that 반말 is ‘nonpolite’ or even ‘impolite,’ but this is not right – no one style is polite (or not polite) in all situations. A formal style can in fact be considered impolite and distant if used with a close friend. The casual styles are by nature friendly and affectionate, but if they are used to the wrong person or in the wrong situation, they can be impolite. Ultimately, politeness lies in behaving in a considerate manner toward others. Each of the four styles is ‘polite’ as long as it is properly used.
Use of the formal 합니다/합니까 and 해요 styles indicates a psychological distance between the speaker and the hearer. For that reason, these styles are used between people whose relationship is socially constrained in some way. They may have just been introduced, they may not know each other well, or they may be participating in a public meeting. Perhaps they have a very different social status, or perhaps their friendship developed after college.

If you are the boss or professor, you have a choice between a formal and a casual style, unless the other person is older than you (in which case 존댓말 has to be used). In most cases, the choice depends on the setting, your personality (whether you like to be formal or casual), the age of your students or social subordinates (the older they are, the more appropriate a formal ending), and the familiarity you feel with them. It is common for a boss or senior person to mix occasional 반말 with 존댓말 when his feelings are not clear-cut (e.g., he doesn’t feel comfortable using just 반말, but 존댓말 only is too formal).

One factor that supersedes all others in the choice of style is the setting. Even two people who are in a romantic relationship and who normally use 반말 to each other must switch to 존댓말 if they are in a formal meeting with other people.

The 합니다/합니까 style is usually mixed with the 해요 style even in formal situations, except in the case of news broadcasts, ceremonies, job interviews, public lectures and announcements, and so on, where the 합니다/합니까 style is used almost exclusively. In general, the more formal the situation is, the more the 합니다/합니까 style will be favored over the 해요 style. (Men tend to use the 합니다/합니까 style more than women do.)


qeadz wrote: - I've read from a number of sources (including my wife saying this) that 요 and ㅂ/니다 are the same politeness level (I always thought the latter as being a bit _more_ polite, but she tells me "where on earth have you been getting your Korean lessons from???")

EDIT: Also I did catch my wife out when she told me they were the same politeness level. My immediate response was "Oh, so if I were talking to the CEO of my company I could use 요?" and she replied "NO! Of course not" (said as if it were self-evidently ridiculous). Never-the-less she insisted they were the same politeness level and interchangeable... except for that case I brought up. *sigh*.

입니다 and 요 are both considered 존댓말 (maybe that's why your wife said they were in the same level) but, as far as I understand, their use isn't exactly interchangable because the first one is more formal that the latter, and thus they have different connotations (so it could be considered rude if you use 요 with your boss).

There is also something called "honorific language" in korean but I've not read much about it yet.
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Re: Sol's New Russian & Korean Log

Postby Oscard587 » Fri May 19, 2017 1:41 am

Sc27 wrote:
Sol wrote:Also today on the way home from the gym I put on a Korean podcast called 두시탈출 컬투쇼 which was very...weird. It started off with the song "I like big butts and I cannot lie!" and the hosts started saying "mmm" creepily. Then they seemed to prank call people and I have no clue what type of podcast this was because they kept saying 개 which is a swear word, right?


From how I interpret it, the "mmm" part likely means that they are agreeing with something that someone had said, like "mmm, I see".

I also don't understand 100% as well, but from how I see it, they are calling random people to see if they can complete a 속담, or a Korean proverb. The part of the podcast that does this 'prank call' is called 행번행전. Each time they call someone, they start off with one part of a proverb, and the receiver must complete it. The proverbs can range from easy to difficult, and sometimes the MCs comment on how easy this one is, and other times they say they have never seen this proverb (before they call a person). If the receiver hangs up or due to some technical reason, or the call doesn't go through, or other various reasons, they sometimes tell the full proverb and what it means.

Anyways, this podcast is basically comedy. So it's supposed to be funny when you listen to it.


Hope you don't mind Korean sense of picking songs for broadcast program :lol:
It seems people don't care about lyrics as much as others do, cause it's just most of Koreans can't understand it anyway :lol:

probably what OP heard is '걔' instead of '개' or part of a word that include '개' like in '지우개'
Korean standard of insult and bad words for broadcast is still strict, so I don't think that they used it during on-air broadcast.
that's really similar to rule of this forum, but more strict with punishment :D
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Re: Sol's New Russian & Korean Log

Postby Sol » Fri May 19, 2017 7:13 am

AndyMeg wrote:For language learning I always try to remember that the languages first evolved naturally and then people tried to understand and explain them in a systematic way that is what we call grammar. So the "rules" are never set in stone and are usually more complex (and context-dependent) that they may appear.


Very good point! I've always though of how hard it must be to pick apart and explain language concepts as it isn't something as concrete or unchanging like math.

I'm just a beginner in korean, but I've read about it and I've also paid attention to this when watching k-dramas. As far as I can tell, the formality levels are part of a complex system that is dependent of many factors (like who is the person you are talking to, how old is he/her, how close are the both of you, what is the setting in which you are interacting, if you are directly talking to one person or if you are talking to a group, etc.)

The book "Using Korean: A Guide to Contemporary Usage" by MIHO CHOO and HYE-YOUNG KWAK says the following (I'll quote a few parts):


Thanks for posting that! It clarifies a lot of things about how the styles change. I never thought about how the setting would change how two people talk to each other.

Perhaps they have a very different social status, or perhaps their friendship developed after college.


The college thing, I never expected it. So if two people become very close friends after college, they would still use a formal style?

As an English speaker, levels of speech are difficult to learn to use naturally! Thankfully the rest of Korean conjugation is simple. Imagine if you had to think of 1st/2nd/3rd/etc person conjugation along with this :D
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Re: Sol's New Russian & Korean Log

Postby AndyMeg » Fri May 19, 2017 7:46 pm

Sol wrote:The college thing, I never expected it. So if two people become very close friends after college, they would still use a formal style?


To answer, I'll quote the "Using Korean" book again:

A formal style is necessary for addressing strangers or casual acquaintances, regardless of their age or social status (unless they are pre-adolescent children). The use of 반말 is automatic among close friends from childhood up to college (as long as they are in a similar age group), but it takes time and mutual agreement before it is used in a relationship that develops after college. The question 말 놓을까요/틀까요? ‘Shall we switch to a casual style?’ might be asked before the transition to 반말.
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Re: Sol's New Russian & Korean Log

Postby qeadz » Fri May 19, 2017 8:07 pm

AndyMeg wrote:
A formal style is necessary for addressing strangers or casual acquaintances, regardless of their age or social status (unless they are pre-adolescent children). ...


Despite being from Seoul, when we visit and she's taking me around, my wife still asks for directions - I guess we're often going places which are touristy because of me. She often uses 요 'formality' when addressing adult strangers, although anyone who is obviously older than her gets the ㅂ니다 treatment. This includes talk to restaurant staff and such.

Some set phrases and words tend to have a fixed formality though. 감사하다 is either more polite or more formal (whichever applies -Im not sure) than 고맙다. So my wife might be ...요, ...요, ...요, 네! 감사합니다! to a stranger, but ...요, ...요, ...요, 네! 고마워요! to a friend.

I do appreciate reading what Using Korean has to say - I've read the TTMIK, HTSK and various reddit posts so between those and watching my wife in action when we visit Korea, I hope that one day I'll get a handle on appropriate usage.
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