2017 Polish Log

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solocricket
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:21 pm
Location: USA
Languages: My good languages: English (N), French (C1), Spanish (B2), Italian (reading knowledge)
Languishing Languages: Dutch (~B1), Icelandic (delapidated passive intermediate skills), Yiddish (basic passive), Japanese (smattering of reading knowledge, lots of vocab, maybe I'll get back to it someday)
Studying: Polish (A1)
Wish List: Chinese, Urdu, Russian, Arabic, Hebrew... yep
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Re: 2017 Polish Log

Postby solocricket » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:12 am

Still plowing through Lesson 4.... Maybe it has more content than previous lessons-- or at least I'll base my slow speed on that. As predicted, I did not have much time to do Polish while on vacation (and I wasn't terribly inclined to squeeze it in). I listened to some podcasts in the car, and I only skipped reps for a couple of days. I've caught back up and I'm back at it!

Yesterday, I got my two books in the mail-- I flipped through the children's picture book and was able to pick out some words and sentences. Not enough to get the gist of the story yet, but still fun!
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solocricket
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Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:21 pm
Location: USA
Languages: My good languages: English (N), French (C1), Spanish (B2), Italian (reading knowledge)
Languishing Languages: Dutch (~B1), Icelandic (delapidated passive intermediate skills), Yiddish (basic passive), Japanese (smattering of reading knowledge, lots of vocab, maybe I'll get back to it someday)
Studying: Polish (A1)
Wish List: Chinese, Urdu, Russian, Arabic, Hebrew... yep
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Re: 2017 Polish Log

Postby solocricket » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:28 pm

Okay, still failing to consistently keep up with Anki reps and still haven't finished the reviled Lesson 4. But! I have renewed my motivation-- yesterday I got some unexpected language practice. Nope, I didn't talk with native speakers. I troubleshooted a very irritating computer problem for many hours using an OS that is in Polish. I can now pretty comfortably navigate a Polish computer. What I can't read, I painstakingly type into my Google Translate app (because, in my past life, I have done some pretty stupid things randomly clicking buttons when I don't understand my OS/iPhone/tablet/etc.'s language).

I solved my computer problem, and now I want to work more on Polish. A win-win situation.
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solocricket
Orange Belt
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:21 pm
Location: USA
Languages: My good languages: English (N), French (C1), Spanish (B2), Italian (reading knowledge)
Languishing Languages: Dutch (~B1), Icelandic (delapidated passive intermediate skills), Yiddish (basic passive), Japanese (smattering of reading knowledge, lots of vocab, maybe I'll get back to it someday)
Studying: Polish (A1)
Wish List: Chinese, Urdu, Russian, Arabic, Hebrew... yep
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=5502
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Re: 2017 Polish Log

Postby solocricket » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:58 am

A semi-major update-- I finished lesson 4 late last week, and today, I finished reading the first Harry Potter book in Polish. I have around 1700 Anki cards currently, and I'm really excited about my progress. I started Harry Potter totally picking out stray words in blocks of text, and finished it understanding large pieces of dialogue, and sometimes a couple whole sentences at a time.

I would like to complete lesson 5 by the end of the month, but considering my pace with lesson 4, that might not be quite possible. As the lessons progress, they seem to be stuffing more and more content into each section. As for reading, I'm going to start Matilda ("Matylda" po polsku) by Roald Dahl tonight. Matilda is easier than Harry Potter (it has pictures!), but I don't know it as obsessively as I know the Harry Potter books in English, so I won't have the same context. I've "read" the whole thing before, but I wasn't seriously learning Polish back then. Matilda has always been one of my favorite books, so I'm happy to relive it again!

I've also just ordered three more books through The Polish Bookstore (http://thepolishbookstore.com/) to feed this Polish reading habit of mine. I'm growing quite the collection :D
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solocricket
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Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:21 pm
Location: USA
Languages: My good languages: English (N), French (C1), Spanish (B2), Italian (reading knowledge)
Languishing Languages: Dutch (~B1), Icelandic (delapidated passive intermediate skills), Yiddish (basic passive), Japanese (smattering of reading knowledge, lots of vocab, maybe I'll get back to it someday)
Studying: Polish (A1)
Wish List: Chinese, Urdu, Russian, Arabic, Hebrew... yep
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Re: 2017 Polish Log

Postby solocricket » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:37 pm

Halfway through lesson 5, so this is going muchhh faster than the last one. The course is getting into the past tense endings gradually, but I think I'm not going to try and memorize these things deliberately. I'm going to let my Anki sentences work their magic and see if I can piece things together with context.

If anyone's curious, I'm (currently) trying to build an immersion environment similar to All Japanese All The Time (http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/). AJATT has influenced my language learning from the very beginning, and my best language, French, was the one that I immersed in most and did the most Anki sentences. So that's something. Still, I didn't immerse totally all the time, and I gave up Anki after about 2000 cards. I'm curious what 10,000+ cards might do, and how immersion can bypass the difficulties Western-Indo-European language speakers have with the Slavic languages and non-Indo-European languages. All in all, I'm trying to keep an open mind about Polish grammar and not jump to conclusions about anything being difficult or impossible to learn.

But, who knows, I might very well drop the immersion environment or Anki might become unsustainable. I enjoy traditional textbook learning/studying as well, and that kind of non-immersion study makes learning more than one language possible! (*thinking about the Hebrew textbook coming in the mail*)
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solocricket
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Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:21 pm
Location: USA
Languages: My good languages: English (N), French (C1), Spanish (B2), Italian (reading knowledge)
Languishing Languages: Dutch (~B1), Icelandic (delapidated passive intermediate skills), Yiddish (basic passive), Japanese (smattering of reading knowledge, lots of vocab, maybe I'll get back to it someday)
Studying: Polish (A1)
Wish List: Chinese, Urdu, Russian, Arabic, Hebrew... yep
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Re: 2017 Polish Log

Postby solocricket » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:25 am

Almost done with lesson 5, just two more pages to enter into Anki. So, I should be finished by tomorrow. And I already have over 2000 Anki cards in my deck... and my hands hurt from typing :shock: I'm really surprised that I've been able to stick with Anki this long, since I've been finding it boring for quite a few years. There's something to be said for having a good, easy to use textbook with lots of sentences. Thus far, and for the foreseeable future, I don't have to think about the content of my Polish cards. That will end someday, but I hope once I've reviewed this course to oblivion, I'll have a good working knowledge and mining sentences won't be a taxing chore.

Still reading Matylda-- I'm enjoying it! It's funny how "off or on" my language skills are-- there will be a paragraph where I understand about two words, followed by a paragraph where I understand virtually everything. I want to increase the amount I'm reading. Right now it's one 20 minute session a day, but maybe I could do one session in the morning and another at night... The sky's the limit, I suppose.
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solocricket
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Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:21 pm
Location: USA
Languages: My good languages: English (N), French (C1), Spanish (B2), Italian (reading knowledge)
Languishing Languages: Dutch (~B1), Icelandic (delapidated passive intermediate skills), Yiddish (basic passive), Japanese (smattering of reading knowledge, lots of vocab, maybe I'll get back to it someday)
Studying: Polish (A1)
Wish List: Chinese, Urdu, Russian, Arabic, Hebrew... yep
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=5502
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Re: 2017 Polish Log

Postby solocricket » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:11 am

As I just posted on the Course Completion Challenge, I finished lesson 5! Hard to believe that I'm nearly halfway through this course. Didn't get much listening/reading in this weekend, however, but I'll pick that up again tomorrow.
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solocricket
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Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:21 pm
Location: USA
Languages: My good languages: English (N), French (C1), Spanish (B2), Italian (reading knowledge)
Languishing Languages: Dutch (~B1), Icelandic (delapidated passive intermediate skills), Yiddish (basic passive), Japanese (smattering of reading knowledge, lots of vocab, maybe I'll get back to it someday)
Studying: Polish (A1)
Wish List: Chinese, Urdu, Russian, Arabic, Hebrew... yep
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=5502
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Contact:

Re: 2017 Polish Log

Postby solocricket » Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:13 am

I just received the Polish books I ordered, so I'm super motivated to finish Matylda by the end of the month. I'm only halfway through, but it could be possible with some longer reading sessions over the weekend. I think then, I might move onto Złodziejka książkek, the PL translation of The Book Thief, yet another one of my favorite books. It's young adult rather than middle grade level, so it'll be a little harder. But this edition of the book is so shiny and new and beautiful that I have to read it next. I have read it in English maybe 2.5 times or so, and most of the way through in French :D The beginning part of the book is very familiar to me, but not the middle or end, soo.. that'll be harder. It's also longer. After Złodziejka książkek, I think I'll try some of the native Polish books I have and see how it goes not having previous experience with plots and details.

I also just got Polish Verbs and Essentials of Grammar by McGraw-Hill. I'm a little disappointed with this-- I wanted a grammar reference, and I own the Japanese and Chinese versions, and I thought those seemed pretty thorough with lots of example sentences. I was surprised at how thin the Polish one is. Most of the content is just tables of all the cases/conjugations with hardly any example sentences. I have the Routledge Polish: A Comprehensive Grammar, as well, so maybe that is more what I'm looking for.

As for listening practice right now, I've been enjoying Youtube vlogs by Poles living in Asia and talking about daily life. I've been mostly watching two women-- one who lives in Shanghai, and another who lives in Seoul. I don't understand much (except when they're doing an apartment tour-- I know furniture names!), but they're fun to follow along!
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DaveBee
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Re: 2017 Polish Log

Postby DaveBee » Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:30 am

solo cricket wrote:...I gave up Anki after about 2000 cards. I'm curious what 10,000+ cards might do, and how immersion can bypass the difficulties Western-Indo-European language speakers have with the Slavic languages and non-Indo-European languages.
I came across a 2006 paper that associated CEFR levels with vocabulary knowledge.
The original Threshold level materials (Van Ek and Trim, 1990; Coste et al 1987) contained wordlists for French, and other languages at B1 level. The French list contains just under 2000 words, and the EFL list just over 2000 words, for example.

In both English and French the most frequent 2000 words, and overwhelmingly the most frequent words in a language are learned earliest (Milton, forthcoming) give about 80% coverage of normal text. This is a very interesting and important figure because it marks the level at which learners appear to progress from understanding almost nothing they hear or read, except in the most limited and contrived of circumstances, to having passages of clarity and being able to grasp the gist of a conversation or a reading passage. But, in both languages, to add sufficient vocabulary to understand the remaining 20%, and therefore understand all of a text, requires massively more vocabulary. Learners do not have anything like full comprehension of a text until they have at least 95% or 98% coverage of a text and that may require 6000 to 8000 words.
The 'test your vocab' website has a lot of data for english speakers/learners.

EDIT
I've been browsing LeoSmith's website today, he has a post where he suggests active and passive vocabulary for CEFR levels.

I have heard the 20,000 passive word figure for C2 from several sources. I used that number and cut it in half for each step on the CEFR scale, and I assumed active vocabulary is about 50% of passive to come up with the following very rough table:

A1: 300 active 600 passive

A2: 600 active 1,200 passive

B1: 1,200 active 2,500 passive

B2: 2,500 active 5,000 passive

C1: 5,000 active 10,000 passive

C2: 10,000 active 20,000 passive
1 x
FR films: 58 / 100, FR books: 35 / 35

User avatar
solocricket
Orange Belt
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:21 pm
Location: USA
Languages: My good languages: English (N), French (C1), Spanish (B2), Italian (reading knowledge)
Languishing Languages: Dutch (~B1), Icelandic (delapidated passive intermediate skills), Yiddish (basic passive), Japanese (smattering of reading knowledge, lots of vocab, maybe I'll get back to it someday)
Studying: Polish (A1)
Wish List: Chinese, Urdu, Russian, Arabic, Hebrew... yep
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=5502
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Contact:

Re: 2017 Polish Log

Postby solocricket » Tue May 02, 2017 2:48 am

Well, I didn't finish Matylda.... It's more tiring than I thought to read more than about 20 minutes at a time, so I'll keep my reading sessions around 20-25 minutes for the time being.

I didn't add new cards over the weekend, instead working on reducing the Anki backlog of reps.... I don't think I reduced it too much, though. I had 130 reps today, and I added 35 cards. I was doing ~160 reps each weekday of last week, so I suppose I cut it down a little bit!

For May, I'm thinking of starting to write in Polish a bit. Thus far, I've been doing a bit of a silent period, but Lang-8/some other corrected blogging outlet seems achievable. I was thinking a post a day, or a post three times a week, or a post a week-- I'm not sure how often I'll start practicing, but I'm planning on starting soon!
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User avatar
solocricket
Orange Belt
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:21 pm
Location: USA
Languages: My good languages: English (N), French (C1), Spanish (B2), Italian (reading knowledge)
Languishing Languages: Dutch (~B1), Icelandic (delapidated passive intermediate skills), Yiddish (basic passive), Japanese (smattering of reading knowledge, lots of vocab, maybe I'll get back to it someday)
Studying: Polish (A1)
Wish List: Chinese, Urdu, Russian, Arabic, Hebrew... yep
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=5502
x 245
Contact:

Re: 2017 Polish Log

Postby solocricket » Tue May 02, 2017 2:51 am

DaveBee wrote:
solo cricket wrote:...I gave up Anki after about 2000 cards. I'm curious what 10,000+ cards might do, and how immersion can bypass the difficulties Western-Indo-European language speakers have with the Slavic languages and non-Indo-European languages.
I came across a 2006 paper that associated CEFR levels with vocabulary knowledge.
The original Threshold level materials (Van Ek and Trim, 1990; Coste et al 1987) contained wordlists for French, and other languages at B1 level. The French list contains just under 2000 words, and the EFL list just over 2000 words, for example.

In both English and French the most frequent 2000 words, and overwhelmingly the most frequent words in a language are learned earliest (Milton, forthcoming) give about 80% coverage of normal text. This is a very interesting and important figure because it marks the level at which learners appear to progress from understanding almost nothing they hear or read, except in the most limited and contrived of circumstances, to having passages of clarity and being able to grasp the gist of a conversation or a reading passage. But, in both languages, to add sufficient vocabulary to understand the remaining 20%, and therefore understand all of a text, requires massively more vocabulary. Learners do not have anything like full comprehension of a text until they have at least 95% or 98% coverage of a text and that may require 6000 to 8000 words.
The 'test your vocab' website has a lot of data for english speakers/learners.

EDIT
I've been browsing LeoSmith's website today, he has a post where he suggests active and passive vocabulary for CEFR levels.

I have heard the 20,000 passive word figure for C2 from several sources. I used that number and cut it in half for each step on the CEFR scale, and I assumed active vocabulary is about 50% of passive to come up with the following very rough table:

A1: 300 active 600 passive

A2: 600 active 1,200 passive

B1: 1,200 active 2,500 passive

B2: 2,500 active 5,000 passive

C1: 5,000 active 10,000 passive

C2: 10,000 active 20,000 passive



That's very interesting. I wonder how many words my French deck had (it's long gone-- lost through multiple computer moves/crashes/forgotten account names)-- I mostly did sentences, so I was well about 2000 words when I stopped doing reps, even though I had ~2000 items in the deck.
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