Euskara (berriro)

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Dagane
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby Dagane » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:19 pm

sanjiu27 wrote:Just wanted to say that I am amazed by and curious about how is it that you happen to know so much about Northern Spain and its political, historical and linguistical peculiarities. I'm quite surprised. Where does that interest come from? :D


I don't know if you refer to me. I am from Cantabria, half my family comes from the Basque Country, many of my friends where I live now are Asturian, I lived and studied in Galicia and I have a deep interest in history.
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sanjiu27
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby sanjiu27 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:35 pm

Dagane wrote:
sanjiu27 wrote:Just wanted to say that I am amazed by and curious about how is it that you happen to know so much about Northern Spain and its political, historical and linguistical peculiarities. I'm quite surprised. Where does that interest come from? :D


I don't know if you refer to me. I am from Cantabria, half my family comes from the Basque Country, many of my friends where I live now are Asturian, I lived and studied in Galicia and I have a deep interest in history.


I meant the people whose native language is English (like saim and nooj), actually :D. Por cierto, Cantabria a este ritmo casi, casi, que también es Euskadi. Por aquí no hay ni uno que no tenga casa por Laredo, Santoña, Castro y compañía. Es una invasión en toda regla :twisted: :lol:
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Dagane
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Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:08 pm
Location: London, UK
Languages: I regularly use:
Spanish (N)
English (C2)
German (C1)
Hungarian (A0)

I formerly studied:
Galician (B2?)
Dutch (A1)
Czech (A0)
Portuguese (A2?)
French (A1?)
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby Dagane » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:47 pm

sanjiu27 wrote: Por cierto, Cantabria a este ritmo casi, casi, que también es Euskadi. Por aquí no hay ni uno que no tenga casa por Laredo, Santoña, Castro y compañía. Es una invasión en toda regla :twisted: :lol:


Exactly. That's why there is a sudden population shift and new "foreign" independentist parties appear in councils where there was never a base for a Basque population. Castro Urdiales is of course the best example, I saw its size and population multiply by 3 during my teenage years.
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nooj
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:13 pm

Saim wrote:Ye mui prestoso vete deprendiendo l'asturianu tamién, Nooj. :)

Una pequeñina correción: la ll vaqueira atópase nel occidente y centru d'Asturies, non l'oriente.

Amás, pa mio idea nun tien xeitu eso de falar de "dialeutos lleoneses", cuando los principales bloques dialeutales da la llingua tan compartíos ente Asturies y Lleón. (Sicasí, en círculos "bablistes", ye dicir activistes de la llingua, nótense ciertes diverxencies nel usu real de los asturianos y los lleoneses, porque los falantes mozos de Lleón suelen ser neofalantes y basar la so fala nes variedaes occidentales; magar que los tres bloques esistan en Lleón, l'occidental ye'l bloque con más variedaes aínda vives)


Gracies abondes Saim poles correciones, la verdá ye que nun coñezo bien entá la dialeutoloxia del astur-leonés. Davezu tengo la impresión de que nun faigo namái que repisar los tos pasos porque tu entamasti a aprender l'eusquera y el gallegu y el catalán etc muncho enantes que yo. Soi un copión ensin vergoña...!
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Saim
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Basic/dabbled: lots of Slavic languages, Romanian, Esperanto, Basque, Arabic, Mandarin
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby Saim » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:36 pm

nooj wrote:Gracies abondes Saim poles correciones, la verdá ye que nun coñezo bien entá la dialeutoloxia del astur-leonés. Davezu tengo l'impresión de que nun faigo namái que repisar los tos pasos porque tu entamasti a aprender l'eusquera y el gallegu y el catalán etc muncho enantes que yo. Soi un copión ensin vergoña...!


Siéntome honráu, pero nun ye cierto. A lo menos cuanto a una de les llingües: del vascu nun teo más que nociones, dacuando pueo descifrar testos con un dicionariu, pero nun diría que lu falo. Quiciabes yo l'entamare enantes que tu, pero de xuru la to conociencia del vascu sobrepasa de llargo la de mio.

De fechu, almito que'l to blog foi en munches ocasiones una fonte d'inspiración y motivación pa siguir estudiando gallegu y eusquera. Y en tou casu toos tamos equí pa deprender. :)

(Por ciertu, dizse "conozo"; "coñezo" ye en gallegu. A min tamién me pasa eso d'amesturar gallegu y asturianu, son mui asemeyaos!)
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nooj
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:48 pm

The trials and tribulations of an Asturian father (taken from the Asturian FB group)


Person 1:

Taba yo esti día falando cola mio fía de 3 años de que ye importante saber inglés (ta deprendiendo), porque hai munchos países nos que tola xente fala esa llingua, y cuando ella seya mayor igual podemos dir a ún d'esos países y asina falar cola xente.
Y dizme ella; "papa, podemos dir tamién un día a un país onde tou el mundu fale asturianu".

Person 2:

Contestación romántica: Tamos diendo hacia esi país :)

Person 1:

Sí X, esi país ye'l futuru. Val más eso que nun dici-y qu'esi país ta nel pasáu.




I was speaking with my three year old daughter about how it's important to know English (she's learning it) because there's many countries where everyone speaks that language and when she's older, maybe we can go to one of those countries and so speak with the people.
And she says to me: "Daddy, one day we can go too to a country where everyone speaks Asturian."

Person 2:

The romantic reply: we're going towards (building towards) that country. :)

Person 1: Yes X, that country is the future. Better that than to tell her that that country lies in the past.

"papa, podemos dir tamién un día a un país onde tou el mundu fale asturianu". - the daughter says this in Asturian, which is important because two years later...

Xana va facer 5 años, con 3 yera billingüe (comigo falaba asturianu), pero lleva un añu -depués de dos cursos escolares y muncha tele- que cada vuelta fala menos n'asturianu. Pue facelo si lo piensa pero cada vuelta lo fai menos, y tien que facelo ya conscientemente porque lo que-y sal ye castellanu, anque fale comigo.
Güei xintando, y falando de que-y prestaría qu'otres neñes falaren asturianu pa poder falar con elles, punxome voz de penina y díxome:
Xana: Papa, sabes porque hablo cada vez menos asturiano?
Yo: por qué, fía?
Xana: Porque me están metiendo el castellano, y el asturiano está olvidándoseme.


Xana is going on 5 years old, when she was 3 years old she was bilingual (with me she spoke in Asturian), but for a year now she's been speaking less and less Asturian (after two school terms and a lot of tele). She can speak it if she thinks about it but she speaks it less and less, and now she has to do it consciously and what comes out is now Spanish, even if she speaks with me.

Today while having lunch and talking about how she'd like other girls to speak Asturian in order to be able to speak with them, she said to me in a sad tone:

Xana: Daddy do you know why I speak less Asturian?
Me: Why honey?
Xana: Because they're putting Spanish in me, and I'm forgetting Asturian.

olvidándoseme. - In the girl's last sentence the Asturian pronoun order comes out in her Spanish. There's a native speaker of Asturian there, in the little girl, but hidden under kilometres of Spanish that they - her friends, school, television, the government - are imposing on her.

The story about Xana at 3 years old telling her father innocently that they too could go to a country where everyone speaks Asturian breaks my goddamn heart.

That country did exist. There was a time not too long ago when only a privileged class could afford not to grow up speaking and knowing Asturian.

Xana was born 70 years too late if she wanted to be born into an Asturian speaking nation. But what does the future hold?
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nooj
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:57 am

'Mañana' a poem by Paz Garcia

acolumbro les piedres llabraes de la muria y alcuérdome de la figar na antoxana, de la llave na marcación del ventanu, de la puerta cola tarabica echada y el cuarterón abiertu
de la zapica en puyu y
el caricós na cenicera
de güelu sentáu nel escanu
cola boina na rodiya
espovisando cola variquina ablanu
y arriba so la bufarda les manos
que sanen cuesen na ALFA
na payareta, l'alcordanza trúxome
l'arume a espliegu y llimón
a sábanes doblaes nel arca'l cuartu
al pie la cama mio güela


I can make out the hewed stones of the wall
And I remember the fig tree in the courtyard,
and the key in the window frame, and the door
locked with the tarabica, and the cuarterón open
and the jug sitting on the bench and
the ember in the ashtray
I remember grandpa sitting on the steps
with the hat on his knees
Dusting with a hazelnut branch
And up above, in the attic,
Healing hands sew on the ALFA sewing machine
On the straw heap, my memory brought back
The smell of lavander and lemon
Of folded bedsheets in the bedroom chest
At the bottom of my grandmother's bed


antoxana - in rural Asturias this space is multiuse, a garden, the courtyard, patio etc.

Image


tarabica - wooden latch used to close doors.
Image

cuarterón - part of a door that can be opened, like a window in a door Image (photo taken by me!)

zapica - today cider is poured from a bottle into a glass, but in the old days the cider was poured from the barrel into a zapica, a mug made out of wood or porcelain, and from there into a cup.

Image

poyu - a bank for sitting, constructed against a wall.
Image

caricós - a smoldering ember. There's an interesting way of preparing coffee that involves the caricós, used often by cowherds. You put a piece of ember in the coffee, either to quickly warm it up or to add some taste to it.

Image

ALFA - Basque company that became famous creating sewing machines.

Image
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nooj
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:56 pm

An interesting Asturian writing contest in 2018. The format is thus, the jury takes a previously written sentence out of a hat, and using this writing prompt, the contestants have 20 minutes to write a short text. The one that is judged best wins the prize.

The writing prompt was a sentence from Groucho Marx:

Hai tantes coses na vida más importantes que les perres, pero cuesten tanto.


There are so many things in life that are more important than money, but the thing is that they cost so much.

Una vida de luxu

Vivimos na cai más esclusiva de la ciudá, arrodiaos de perres, rellacionándomos cola xente más elegante y con tol tiempu llibre pa les nueses aficiones: la música clásica, la lliteratura, la contemplación, les llargues conversaciones….
Tu y yo, Lluna, equí somos felices. Yo sorriendo, tu moviendo’l rau tol día y llambiendo tantu zapatu bonu. ¿Qué más podemos pidi-y a la vida, Llunina?
Quiciabes, ye verdá, nun tener de madrugar tanto cuando abren la sucursal y tenemos d’apartar el xergón, los cartones y el nuesu carrín del super llenu tratos, pa que pase’l director del bancu.


A rich life

We live in the most exclusive street of the city, surrounded by money, rubbing shoulders with the most elegant people and with free time for what we want: classical music, literature, quiet contemplation, long conversations...
Me and you Lluna, we're happy here. Me smiling, you wagging your tail all day long and licking so many good shoes. What more can you ask for, my little Lluna?
It's true that maybe one could ask to not have to wake up so early when they open the branch and we have to move the mattress, the cardboard boxes and our shopping cart full of stuff so that the bank director can get in.

Story by Inaciu Galán.

Image
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nooj
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:51 pm

Asturian has me impassioned for the moment. Sadly it took me years to getting around to learn it. I shouldn't have taken so long, as I'm finding it a very interesting language in and of itself, quite aside from the Asturian culture that this language is a vehicule of.

Of course it's still an Iberian Romance language, you're not going to find something totally alien. But that's the beauty of the Romance languages. The way that they started from more or less similar models (various forms of Latin) but took different/similar routes over the millenia, adding or taking things away according to the needs and whims of the environment, the speakers and the cultures. Like a piece of wood being whittled away.

Or maybe a better comparison would be to the dizzying variety of beetle species in the world. All built according to the same blueprint grosso modo (head, thorax, abdomen) but among the thousands and thousands of species, none is identical with the other in terms of behaviour, lifestyles etc.

Take the behaviour of the third person dative and accusative clitics of Asturian. In every other Iberian Romance language these clitics undergo some change when put together. In the following examples the accusative clitic has been kept in masc singular for simplicity's sake.

Catalan li (dat) becomes hi (loc) - l'hi donaré
Spanish le (dat) becomes se - se lo daré
In some Aragonese varieties lo (acc) becomes ne (partitive) -
lo ne daré
In some Aragonese varieties le (dat) becomes ye (loc) - lo ye daré
Galician o (acc) and lle (dat) become llo - dareillo

But in Astur-Leonese, when y (dat) and lu (acc) are brought together, you have voi dá-ylu, they're brought together but no morphological change happens in either clitic form. They sound the same as when they were separate.

Here's a version of the Latin that the Romans brought to this corner of the peninsula, adopted by a mostly Iberian (maybe some Celtic in there too?) people who in turn wielded and shaped it for two thousand years.

The Asturian language is perhaps the greatest treasure that Asturians have collectively as a people, which makes it all the more sadder because it is not recognised as such. Oficialidá!
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Saim
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?? (depends on register): Urdu
Intermediate (mostly passive): Hebrew, Punjabi, Russian, Portuguese, Italian, Occitan, Dutch, Turkish, German
Basic/dabbled: lots of Slavic languages, Romanian, Esperanto, Basque, Arabic, Mandarin
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby Saim » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:10 am

nooj wrote: "papa, podemos dir tamién un día a un país onde tou el mundu fale asturianu".


This reminds me of a story I heard from a Catalan who went to the intensive Occitan summer course in Vilanòva d'Òlt. One of the teachers was there with their child, and when the course was coming to a close the kid says something to the effect of: "papà, me'n vòli pas anar d'Occitània!".

nooj wrote:Here's a version of the Latin that the Romans brought to this corner of the peninsula, adopted by a mostly Iberian (maybe some Celtic in there too?) people who in turn wielded and shaped it for two thousand years.


The area of ethnically Iberian settlement mostly covered the eastern parts of the peninsula (so the contemporary Catalan-speaking area, Aragon, Murcia and parts of eastern Andalusia), AFAIK also extending north into parts of Languedoc.

Image

So ironically most of the Ibero-Romance languages didn't traditionally develop in Iberian areas, with the possible exception of (Navarro-)Aragonese. Here Ibero- refers to the peninsula and not the historical ethnic group.
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