Bla bla bla

[Dagane]

I can't help looking for a balanced middle point when I feel a discourse is heavy on one side,

I don't think there is any sort of reasonable "middle point" between competing nationalisms. All nationalism is bad, as you yourself said.

I personally don't care what party you vote for (I don't vote), or what the national identity of people in Treviño is (or, I care about it just as much as I care about the relative proportion of Albanians or Bosniaks and Serbs in different municipalities of Sandžak and Preševo). None of that is relevant to anything I said.

The comment on status in Southern Navarre comes because I studied with people from there who lost job opportunities because of the language barrier, when they never even had to study it at school. [...] If you ask me, I don't understand why the interest in national languages other than Spanish is so little. I even think we should all learn either our local dialect/language or another peninsular language.

That's what happens when a language is actually useful, you need it to work in areas where it's spoken in many fields. The first sentence in this quote contradicts the second one. Of course people won't learn a language that won't open up any job opportunities. If you want Basque to be useful and people to want to learn it you should be asking for more of the previous scenario.

If you want Basque to be a "national" language of Spain and not associated with Basque nationalism then it needs to be absolutely indispensable in parts of Spain, just as French is indispensable in parts of Switzerland despite not being the numerical majority in the whole country.

In my region, there is a city which has never been part of a Basque province except for about 60 years some 3 centuries ago (and then, never Basque speaking).

This is simply false. Basque died out in Treviño at the same time as the adjoining area of Alaba. It's not true that Treviño was "never" Basque speaking, just as this is not true of Logroño, Huesca or Pau.

Some articles about Aranese positions do leak into Spanish news on and off, but then you will accuse me of presenting the Spanish viewpoint, so I avoided the point altogether.

I'm making the factual argument that this claim is untrue. If you want to disprove me using these articles cite them. But make sure the articles support the claim you actually made: "speakers [of Aranese] often complain to the Catalan government [presumably about something related to language policy]", and not something irrelevant about political parties, medieval kingdoms or national identities.

Hi Sam,

I agree that a language is useful because it is used, and I support the idea that you must learn it to have better job opportunities. I was talking about people from non-Basque speaking areas of Southern Navarre who were not forced to learn Basque and now they find out it became important under a process of making the entire province Basque-speaking.

I never talked about Treviño, nooj just gave an example. I haven't even been there! That's not where I am from and I was referring to a city were Basque population is recent and Basque nationalist parties are minor. But they exist, since recent times only because of the population switft.

EDIT: I will stop answering because the discussion is heating up and I am preparing for an exam tomorrow. And also because positions supporting nationalisms (not that you have them) are always extreme and there is no dialogue.

Bottom line on my side: all language variants are beautiful and should be encouraged at all levels including school, university and administration, regardless of whether they are called national languages, regional languages or dialects, and politics are to blame when that doesn't happen. On a second thought, I firmly believe languages should not be associated with any ideology, whatever it may be. That only creates separation and elitism and prevent people with different ideologies from learning them. That's what prompted my comment. And that happens far too often, particularly in Spain. I didn't intend to convince anybody of anything or to open a political debate.

[Saim]

I never talked about Treviño, nooj just gave an example. I haven't even been there! That's not where I am from and I was referring to a city were Basque population is recent and Basque nationalist parties are minor. But they exist, since recent times only because of the population switft.

Sorry for misinterpreting you, I assumed you were talking about Treviño because that's the only area under Spanish administration outside of the autonomous communities of Euskadi or Navarre where I'm aware of there being any sort of presence of Basque nationalism.

I am preparing for an exam tomorrow.

Good luck!

Bottom line on my side: all language variants are beautiful and should be encouraged at all levels including school, university and administration, regardless of whether they are called national languages, regional languages or dialects,

I agree wholeheartedly, although I would still call this an ideological position.

[nooj]

I agree that a language is useful because it is used, and I support the idea that you must learn it to have better job opportunities. I was talking about people from non-Basque speaking areas of Southern Navarre who were not forced to learn Basque and now they find out it became important under a process of making the entire province Basque-speaking.

That's why Basque should be official in all of Navarra. Many Navarrans in the south of Navarra where Basque has no legal statute, demand access to Basque education for their children in order for them to have more opportunities.

Basque officiality for all of Navarra is something that Basque nationalists have always pushed for and it has consistently been rejected by other political parties.



Right now Navarra is split into a perverse territorial division where Basque is official in the northern part, has mixed status in the middle parts, and has no status in the southern part. On a positive note, more and more mixed areas are changing legal status and falling into the orbit of Basque as a co-official language.

You don't want Basque to be seen as a Basque nationalist language? Then stand up, you non Basque nationalists, and actually do something for the language.

It's natural to consider the Basque nationalists to be the greatest/only defenders of the Basque language because anytime anything is ever done FOR the language, it is pushed primarily by the Basque nationalists.

And when anything is ever done AGAINST the promotion and normalisation of the Basque language, it is inevitably an assortment of self proclaimed constitutionalist parties, 'moderate leftists' or the right wing. Until they change their behaviour, to my mind they are enemies of the Basque language.

[nooj]

On July 18th, in the Consell d'Eivissa, the two counsellors of Podemos Eivissa voted alongside the six counsellors of the right wing parties PP and the one counsellor of Ciudadanos to approve a motion that would ask the Balearic government to change the status of Catalan, from what it is now - a necessary requisite to work in the administration, health services and education - to a mere merit when it comes to the criteria of hiring people. Only the four counsellors of PSOE voted against the measure.

Reducing Catalan in the Balearic Islands from its indispensable status in employment to a mere merit, has been a long time goal of the right wing parties, and constitutes a direct attack against the longevity and normalisation of Catalan. Especially grave considering that it is on Eivissa (Ibiza), out of all the Balearic Islands, where Catalan is most at risk.

Hours after their vote, on their Twitter account, Podemos Eivissa released this statement:

Ahir, ens vàrem equivocar en la votació i demanem disculpes per això. El nostre compromís amb la nostra llengua i cultura és tan ferma com sempre

Yesterday we made a mistake in our voting and we are sorry for that. Our commitment to our language and culture is as strong as always.

How do you vote by mistake? And afterwards, how dare you rectify yourself on Twitter in a 144 word tweet, and not in a press conference where you fall to your metaphorical knees and apologise before God, the archangels and the community of Christians Eivissans for your attack on the Catalan language?

You don't sit through a voting process, read through the bill, vote with your right wing opponents and oopsy daisy I pressed the wrong button! Do you take your constituents for idiots?

I leave my keys on the table by mistake. I leave the toilet lid up by mistake.

I don't vote with my ideological enemies by mistake. They did it because they didn't think their vote would receive such a ferocious reaction, and backtracked hours later when they realised that there were a lot of people angry with their decision.

With open minded progressive 'leftists' like these, who needs the Catalanophobic right wing parties?

[nooj]

Author: unknown

Sea

The sand,
Just now kissed by the sea
prickles me as I knead it
Warm and soft
Like the bedsheets of a nest,
In a beautiful sunrise.
I'm searching for an empty beach
To speak with the sand and the sea
My long time companions
I've been courting since my birth

I'm learning Asturian using the grammar (2001) of the Academia de la Llingua Asturiana, and there it teaches about the neuter gender, which is used for uncountable things (water, sand, air, wood etc). And therefore I expected the neuter to be used for the sand. I expected to see:

Acabante besalo la mar
Calecido y llandio

So I asked in an Asturian language FB group, Friquilinguismu, and a nice Asturian speaker informed me that in western dialects of Asturian, the neuter gender does not exist. The standard Asturian collects this feature from the central and eastern varieties of Asturian where it does exist.

Refuge

The best refuge is
is in a heart
That loves with gentleness

The <ḷḷ> letter used in the poem by Nené Losada Rico is called the che vaqueira, used to represent a range of sounds that are present in Asturian dialects in the east and central part of Asturias, as well as in some Leonese dialects.

See the possible realisations:

[ɖ]: oclusiva retroflexa sonora. Carauterística de la zona d'Astierna nel conceyu d'Ibias
[dʐ]: africada retroflexa sonora. Propia de la fala de La Bordinga y del Altu Ayer
[tʂ]: africada retroflexa sorda. Conceyos d'Ayer, Quirós y otros
[t͡s]: africada alveolar sorda. Conceyos de Ḷḷena, sur de Mieres y otros.

In other dialects of Asturian however, the same phoneme is realised as [ʎ] and the che vaqueira letter is not used. The title of the poem in these dialects (including the standard) would be written abellugo.

Great emphasis is given in Asturian orthography to representing each dialect of Asturian in writing. Any Asturian speaker can write down their dialect without fuss, whereas for us English or Spanish speakers, we'd have to bend the rules of an orthography that wasn't intended to represent i.e. the vowel system of western dialects of Andalucian Spanish.

For example of this respect given to the dialects, see topography. The local pronunciations are prioritised when place names are officialised in Asturian, so in Cangas you can have a place written Ḷlavachos because it is pronounced as such by the locals, whereas in Samartín del Rei Aurelio you can have a place called Llavayos because there they pronounce it differently.

I was reminded of this word because yesterday I watched a news report about the opening back up of mountain refuges for mountaineers and hikers. The news comes from the autonomous community of Asturias's TV channel.

Los abellugos de monte prepárense p'agospiar a los primeros veceros

Mountain refuges prepare to harbour their first clients

In the news report, the presenter speaks in a Spanish that I would struggle to place in any one geographical place.

However the people interviewed speak in the variety of Spanish that is typical of Asturias and very distinctive in terms of intonation and phonology. Listen to how they pronounce their final nasals for example, [ŋ] like Galicians do.

But that's not all. The refuge keeper with the nice tattoos in the last few seconds speaks in Asturian, not in Spanish. She has a lovely Asturian. It's a shame that the report is so short because I'd like to listen more.

So in one news segment you have a quick snapshot of some of the ways that Asturians speak today.

[sanjiu27]

I don't think there is any sort of reasonable "middle point" between competing nationalisms. All nationalism is bad, as you yourself said.

Well, nationalism is neither good nor bad itself, but rather a political weapon which can act in the interest of the people in general, or in the interest of a few people in particular. Here in the Basque Country the Basque nationalism is undeniably promoted by the business sector and medium-sized banks (like Laboral Kutxa) for political and economical selfish reasons, but it also has been historically severely repressed by the Spanish state and, what is more important, has a strong popular basis. I don't think that the conformation of a Basque State will take to end the current troubles of Basque people (unemployment, low wages...), but it should be respected their right to self-determination.

You don't want Basque to be seen as a Basque nationalist language? Then stand up, you non Basque nationalists, and actually do something for the language.

It's natural to consider the Basque nationalists to be the greatest/only defenders of the Basque language because anytime anything is ever done FOR the language, it is pushed primarily by the Basque nationalists.

And when anything is ever done AGAINST the promotion and normalisation of the Basque language, it is inevitably an assortment of self proclaimed constitutionalist parties, 'moderate leftists' or the right wing. Until they change their behaviour, to my mind they are enemies of the Basque language.

So true. Anyway, I'd like to add more nuances to the overall picture. It has to be taken into account that: (1) the Basque language has been subordinated to several Romance languages for at least 1,000 years, it has been a weak peasant language for a long time [1]; (2) during the fascist dictatorship it lost most of its native speakers, mostly in the cities; (3) the vast majority of the former industrial centers of the Basque Country were populated with people moving from Castilla and other places of Spain; and (4) the Basque nationalist movement is relatively young in history. Under these circumstances it's completely natural that the people who care the most about its preservation are also those most likely to be politically active.

References:
[1] El Euskera Arcaico, by Luis Núñez Astrain.

EDIT: Added the first point!

[Saim]

Ye mui prestoso vete deprendiendo l'asturianu tamién, Nooj.

Una pequeñina correción: la ll vaqueira atópase nel occidente y centru d'Asturies, non l'oriente.

Amás, pa mio idea nun tien xeitu eso de falar de "dialeutos lleoneses", cuando los principales bloques dialeutales da la llingua tan compartíos ente Asturies y Lleón. (Sicasí, en círculos "bablistes", ye dicir activistes de la llingua, nótense ciertes diverxencies nel usu real de los asturianos y los lleoneses, porque los falantes mozos de Lleón suelen ser neofalantes y basar la so fala nes variedaes occidentales; magar que los tres bloques esistan en Lleón, l'occidental ye'l bloque con más variedaes aínda vives).

Well, nationalism is neither good nor bad itself

This is a position that I understand (especially when it is expressed by members of oppressed national minorities) but do not share. In any case, my main point was that it's contradictory to claim to be against nationalism while also wanting a "middle ground" between nationalisms.

[Dagane]

mozos

"Mozucus" .

Nooj, I do! I do stand up for regional languages outside political grounds. I did it everyday for 6 years while living in Galicia and I defended their language even against the surprisingly high number of Galicians who despise their own language and think it is just a dying dialect. I also did it a bit in my own region with my own regional dialect/ language (nobody can tell what it is), but that's more of a lost case. So don't come to me with flags because I don't buy it. I do fight for it!

[sanjiu27]

Just wanted to say that I am amazed by and curious about how is it that you happen to know so much about Northern Spain and its political, historical and linguistical peculiarities. I'm quite surprised. Where does that interest come from?

[Dagane]

Just wanted to say that I am amazed by and curious about how is it that you happen to know so much about Northern Spain and its political, historical and linguistical peculiarities. I'm quite surprised. Where does that interest come from?

I don't know if you refer to me. I am from Cantabria, half my family comes from the Basque Country, many of my friends where I live now are Asturian, I lived and studied in Galicia and I have a deep interest in history.