Bla bla bla

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
nooj
Brown Belt
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:59 pm
Languages: english (n)
x 3360

Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Wed May 27, 2020 9:25 pm

A series of videos became viral in the Catalan language sphere a few months ago, originally uploaded on TikTok. I've been waiting, hoping they'd put it up on YT, but they never did (and I asked!) so I took the outrageous move of taking just two of these videos, uploading it and putting English subtitles on it. If you would like to see the full set, you can watch them on Twitter here.

The theme is repte de paraules (word challenge). One woman is from Amposta, a city in the south part of Catalonia, another is from Girona, in the north east part of Catalonia. The distance between the two is about 270km.





As you will see in these two videos, the differences in words and expressions are quite significant. The Girona dialect belongs to the Eastern dialect block, specifically of the Central variety, the Amposta dialect forms a subsection of the North-Western dialect block, closely related to the Valencian dialect block. In the following map, you can place Amposta in the Tortosí dialect area (sometimes called a dialect of transition between Valencian and Catalan).

Image

Mallorcan is the dialect I speak and it's an Eastern dialect. So as expected the Girona dialect is far more similar to Mallorcan (galleda, escombra etc). But acotxar-se (Amposta), does resemble a Mallorcan word, acotar-se with the same meaning.

Here is another video, this time showcasing Valencian dialects, one person from Xàbia in south Valencia, the other from Benicarló in the north. Between the two, a distance of 260km. You can see more videos of this set by looking up #reptedeparaules + valencianes.



The Xàbia dialect is a Meridional dialect (green coloured on the map), the Benicarló dialect, at the topmost part of Castelló, forms a part of the Tortosí dialect (transitional dialect) like Amposta.

Image

So, what's the point of all this? To celebrate dialectical diversity of course. Catalan is rich, very rich, and one can spend one's life learning about the differences from town to town, city to city, province to province, country to country where it is spoken.

There was a bit of a fuss in the comments as some people perceived the laughter of the Gironan woman as belittling the dialect of Amposta. What has to be taken into account is that the Girona dialect, as a Central dialect, is closer to the variety most televised in the national Catalonian press: many people think TV3 for example privileges the Central dialects, and does not use enough North Occidental dialects in Catalonia, or precisely the Southern dialects in the Terres de l'Ebre.

The Girona woman defended herself and said that that was not her intention at all, and I believe her. What I do find displeasing is that the Girona dialect examples are given first and the Amposta dialect is made to respond, which COULD suggest that the Amposta dialect is the one that is different from a dialect that is closer to the norm as opposed to both dialects being different from each other which is the truth. So maybe they should have alternated the order of presentation, to emphasise their equal funniness from each other.
7 x
زندگی را با عشق
نوش جان باید کرد

nooj
Brown Belt
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:59 pm
Languages: english (n)
x 3360

Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Thu May 28, 2020 12:22 am

A really interesting interview with a Zuberoan man, by some Hegoalde teenagers. No information given about what they're doing this for nor the date, place etc.



Zuberoan is very different from the dialects I'm used to, I've said it time and time again. However, it is still recognisably Basque. No Zuberoan Basque speaker truly questions the unity of the language. However, whether it's because this guy speaks slowly or for some other reason, he is incredibly understandable. I literally understood 70-80% of what he was talking. And if it's understandable to me, a learner, then to the young Southerners who recorded him, there must have been very little that escaped their attention.

At first I thought that he must have been 'dialling back' his dialect, or accommodating to the Southerners, and there is some of that.

But he is not toning much down on that front. He has the /y/ vowel, [h] aspiration, /r/ deletion in intervocalic position etc and the full range of alternations in vowel combinations, for example etxean = etxian. And he uses Zuberoan vocabulary without concession to the interlocutor e.g. (hemen = heben) and Zuberoan morphology (naiz = niz, mintzatzen gara = mintzatzen gia).

It's an incredibly beautiful variety of Basque, no?

The interviewer asks the Zuberoan man, the situation of Basque in Zuberoa and how he learned Basque, and I want to briefly summarise.

He said that at the time of his youth when he went to school, speaking Basque was punished in school, they were forced to speak French, but luckily he had a teacher, a young priest who was also from Zuberoa and who did not punish them. Well, he clarifies, they were not allowed to speak Basque in class, but in their breaks they spoke Basque.

Among the questions that she asks the man, one is about the Basque culture in Zuberoa and he sets off on a long explanation of the Maskaradak and the Pastoralak, the latter being theatre performances with a very old tradition (one of the oldest in all of the Basque Country), involving music, dance, song, poetry. He mentions a Pastorala event 10-11 years ago where he participated, where because of his moustache, he was classified as a türka, one of the 'baddies', and had to dress accordingly.

The characters are split between the Kristiak (Christians, usually Basques) and the Türkak (usually representing foreigners, the French, English, Spanish). And the theatre has as its theme a Manichean battle between these bands.

Every year it falls upon a different town the honour of organising these Pastoralak, which go on for several hours in the town square. All of the performers are non professional, volunteers from the town, non specially picked out for their skills or anything: truly local. But not for that, unprofessional! They are carefully coreographed with love and care.

There is a script-writer who writes the pastorala, which has an important Basque personality as its central topic around which the rest revolves (before the 1950s, it could be any important religious or military personality in France, since the 50s the theme has stuck to important figures in Basque history). In the image below, the 2017 Pastorala held in the two communes of Altzai-Altzabeheti-Zunharreta and Lakarri-Arhane-Sarrikotagaine. The Basque figure celebrated was Joanikot, a captain who first helped the Castillians conquer the kingdom of Navarra and then turned on them. He defended Donibane Garazi in the seige of 1521 against the Spanish forces. He was captured, hung, decapitated and quartered.

Image

In the case that the Zuberoan man mentions in the interview, his Pastorala was about Antso Haundia (1004-1035), a very important king of Navarra. That would place the Pastorala in which he acted in 2004, when it was celebrated in Maule.

As the Pastoralak are entirely in the Zuberoan dialect of Basque, it becomes imperative finding
local people capable of writing the scripts in Basque and people capable of acting them out. The latter is getting more difficult every year as young people generally do not speak Basque, although they can memorise the script. The Zuberoan dialect is severely endangered, I've heard figures as low as 5,000 speakers. If any Basque dialect is going to go extinct in the next few decades, it will be Zuberoan.

I've never been to one of these theatrical events, but it is the pride and glory of Zuberoa. People train and prepare the entire year to perform in it. If you have the chance, you owe it to yourself to go.

This year's Pastorala was written by the Zuberoan Basque nationalist from the previous post, Jean-Louis Davant, and in a very surprising turn of events, he wrote the Pastorala around the central figure of...Abdelkader!

Image

The Algerian leader of the 19th century who fought against French colonialism. What on Earth does this charismatic, brilliant political/military, decidedly non Christian and non Basque leader from over a hundred years ago have to do with the Basque Country today?

Tomorrow I'll post some videos/audio/lyrics of a Pastorala, and I will translate an interview with Davant where he details his reasons for choosing Abdelkader. Unfortunately due to the coronavirus, this year's Pastorala was moved to next year. But that means there is no excuse not to go...!
4 x
زندگی را با عشق
نوش جان باید کرد

guyome
Blue Belt
Posts: 603
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:41 pm
Languages: French (N)
x 2430

Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby guyome » Thu May 28, 2020 6:19 pm

nooj wrote:There was a bit of a fuss in the comments as some people perceived the laughter of the Gironan woman as belittling the dialect of Amposta. (...) The Girona woman defended herself and said that that was not her intention at all, and I believe her.
In these situations I guess a lot depends on where the laughter comes from. Here, it looked more like friendly banter than belittling another dialect. And my feeling is that it really is up to the laughee to decide if the laugher's reaction was out of place since she knows her better.
In a similar fashion, I've read/heard jokes in Yiddish that I would never even dare to repeat because I'm pretty sure they would get me labelled as an antisemite but does it mean I should tell the (Jewish) person who told them and the (Jewish) audience who laughed that they shouldn't have?
1 x

nooj
Brown Belt
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:59 pm
Languages: english (n)
x 3360

Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:37 pm

I went to Baiona in the morning, taking a train from Donostia to Hendaia, and from there I took a SCNF train to Baiona.

I fell asleep on the train to Hendaia and when I woke up, still groggy, I had a bizarre experience. I stepped out of the Basque metro station, walked 50m to the SCNF station and asked in Basque to the young woman behind the information counter (not the ticket counter, just the information point) for some info, whether I could use my student card to get discounts on tickets in the French state.

Incomprehension and puzzlement on her end. And from my end: why didn't she understand Basque? Then I realised, ah, I'm in 'France' now.

Hendaia, the Basque city is right alongside the Spanish-French border. A third of its inhabitants are from the Spanish state, many of whom are Basque themselves. I would probably have gotten service in Spanish if I had bothered to use it. But not Basque, as it turns out.

Here is what the figures were for Hendaia a decade ago:

Euskararen erabilera: % 0,43 (2011)
Euskaldunak: % 8,73 (2010)


So use of Basque: 0.43%
Basque speakers: 8.73%

That's sad. Now don't get me wrong, Irun just across the border in the Spanish state has miserable numbers too, although it's definitely better than Hendaia's:

Euskararen erabilera: % 8,5 (2011)
Euskaldunak: % 35,85 (2010)


The difference between Spanish dominated Basque cities and French dominated Basque cities however, is that in the South Basque Country where Basque is an official language, at least in official circumstances and in jobs where contact with the public is necessary, I'm guaranteed to be able to use Basque and be understood, or be attended to in Basque in return.

I've never once had a situation where I've not been able to buy a ticket or ask for information at an information point, in Basque.

Later, I went to the Basque Museum in Baiona, at 10 am in the morning. I was cruelly disappointed to find that there too, none of the people working that shift, at least, spoke Basque. The people at the reception and the tour guides all spoke (only) French.

However, I did find there Frank Dolosor, Basque journalist for EITB in the North Basque Country doing a report on the temporary exposition. He speaks Basque, of course. The cameraman in his crew didn't however.

It's strange to see in Baiona, Basque flags and symbols and Basque words in the windows of shops, and to see it written in signs, on the matriculation plates...but nowhere did I hear Basque. If there's a café with a Basque name, I should be able to enter and use Basque to get my coffee no? Or is Basque just a marketing tool? Is Basque meant for showing off and French for real talk?

It reminds me of what happens in Perpinyà where Catalan flags and symbols abound, more than in Catalonia itself...but you can forget about Catalan being spoken in the streets, save for the Gitanos. I feel it is a kind of compensation, this holding onto the superficial trappings of an identity whilst the core is taken over by a coockoo language.

From Baiona I walked to the town of Uztaritze. Getting into Lapurdi proper now. Here are the figures for ten years ago for Uztaritze:

Euskaldunak
% 13,3 (2010)
Euskararen erabilera
% 1,02 (2011)


I went to the udaletxea (mairie) to get my pilgrim's credential stamped. As always I asked if there was anyone who could attend me in Basque. There was no one.

This makes no sense. Why do you have signs in Basque, including the very name of the town hall itself, if there's no one in administration who can speak Basque? It's illegal in France to make Basque a requirement for a public service job, but until that restriction is overthrown (when pigs fly?) I can think of several alternatives, such as offering free or subsided courses so that public servants can take advantage and learn Basque.

I was getting progressively more dejected. Was I going to walk through Lapurdi, without hearing or speaking any Basque in a normal setting? Coming from a place where Basque is a real public spoken language to where Basque is hidden is a real shock.

Then I arrived at Zuraide. And then things changed. But nothing predicted that I'd be able to use Basque in this town of 1400 people. The data is still quite negative:

Euskaldunak
% 12,98 (2010)
Euskararen erabilera
% 0,97 (2011)


A bit more Basque speakers, nearly 13% but the use is still miserably low.

I went to the town frontoia where some men my age (20s-30s) were playing pelota. Out of perhaps 8 men, 2 were Basque speakers.

As one of them explained to me, in Zuraide there is no ikastola, but there is one in Sanpere, the town famous for its festival where the proceeds go directly to funding the ikastolak in the North Basque Country. He went there to do his education in Basque.

Then I went to the town church in order to talk to the priest. He wasn't there but the choir organiser came in, to our mutual surprise. The choir was going to rehearse, many of whom come from this town itself. I asked him if I could sleep in the church (all the albuergues are closed, I knew this in advance so I sleep where I can), to which he said, well I'll ask the priest. After a short call, he gave me permission to sleep upstairs. And invited me to Mass tomorrow morning. Alex, the choir leader, was born here and speaks the Basque from this town. Slowly the choir members filtered in. I talked to two elderly members at the entrance chatting away, I told them rehearsal was about to start soon, to their bemusement. Ah, you speak Basque? I'm used to that.

I sat down at the back and listened to 45 minutes of beautiful hymns and devotional songs, all in classical Lapurdi Basque (one of the first and most important literary dialects of Basque, which had a significant influence on the later standard Basque). The hymnal is a thing of beauty, I need to take a picture and put it up here.

The average age of the choir was around 60-70s, and although I didn't get around to talking to all of them, I did talk to a few men and women who came up to me after and they spoke to me in Basque, which I was really happy about. After all, in a choir when you're singing, you don't necessarily need to know the language. C.f. choirs that sing in Latin.

One of them was a lady who told me that she had done the same Camino that I was doing...17 years ago. 17 years ago, the services, roads and everything were non existent. Heck, this entire Camino has been practically forgotten up until relatively recently. What she did, takes guts. The Camino I'm doing is the Baztan Camino that crosses from Lapurdi into the Baztan Valley in Nafarroa Garaia. I've been to the Baztan Valley once.

Here is where I'm sleeping. In the upstairs part of the church, there's a whole shelf of Basque hymns. I'm taking pictures of the hymns, not sure I'll have this opportunity again. But it's best if its sung of course. Image
Last edited by nooj on Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
7 x
زندگی را با عشق
نوش جان باید کرد

nooj
Brown Belt
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:59 pm
Languages: english (n)
x 3360

Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:02 pm

In the church was this sign (in Lapurdi dialect):

Image

This church is called Saint James
Previously it was used as a shelter by pilgrims
Today too, by faithful and non believers alike
If this place is to your liking, all the better

All things that are born are proceeding towards the grave
Aren't we all pilgrims in this world?
With heart let us hold firm to our road
Whilst wholly faithful to our heavenly Father

May the All Powerful bless you
He who gave his only Son
Pass the days and nights with the Spirit
The Three are your companions on the road


Amen
2 x
زندگی را با عشق
نوش جان باید کرد

nooj
Brown Belt
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:59 pm
Languages: english (n)
x 3360

Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:04 am

Image

In Brittany there's a circular pilgrimage that covers between 600 and 1000km, visiting the seven founding saints. If I start learning Breton now I'm wondering if I could get good enough to use it on the walk. I also feel some urgency, every year native speakers pass away in their thousands, I want to go as soon as possible to speak Breton with as many people as possible on as many occasions as possible.
4 x
زندگی را با عشق
نوش جان باید کرد

guyome
Blue Belt
Posts: 603
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:41 pm
Languages: French (N)
x 2430

Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby guyome » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:38 am

If you want to read a day-by-day account of the Tro Breiz written by a pilgrim, check Minihi Levenez #120. Minihi Levenez is a bilingual Breton-French publication, many past issues are available on the website (as well as plenty of Breton books and periodicals).

If you want to start studying Breton, I can recommand the old Assimil course in three volumes (Initiation/Vol. 1/Vol. 2) by Fañch Morvannou. It can easily be found online and the Initiation is great material.
2 x

tractor
Green Belt
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:58 am
Location: Norway
Languages: Norwegian (N), English, Spanish, Catalan, French, German, Italian, Latin
x 777

Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby tractor » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:45 am

nooj wrote:There was a bit of a fuss in the comments as some people perceived the laughter of the Gironan woman as belittling the dialect of Amposta. What has to be taken into account is that the Girona dialect, as a Central dialect, is closer to the variety most televised in the national Catalonian press: many people think TV3 for example privileges the Central dialects, and does not use enough North Occidental dialects in Catalonia, or precisely the Southern dialects in the Terres de l'Ebre.

Given the demographic weight of the area where Central Catalan is spoken, I think this criticism is a bit unfair.

nooj wrote:The Girona woman defended herself and said that that was not her intention at all, and I believe her.

So do I.

I came across this a few days ago: L’Atles Lingüístic del Domini Català - https://aldc.espais.iec.cat. Lots of fun dialect maps to look at.
1 x

tractor
Green Belt
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:58 am
Location: Norway
Languages: Norwegian (N), English, Spanish, Catalan, French, German, Italian, Latin
x 777

Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby tractor » Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:25 am

iguanamon wrote:Having learned Portuguese, to a high level (and Spanish), I never felt the need to learn Galician as it is completely intelligible to me. A few years ago, I was traveling with my Brazilian partner through If you travel in Portugal, Brazil or elsewhere in the Lusophone world, you may have to modify your Galego only slightly... or not at all. I doubt that you will want or need to learn Portuguese after Galego, unless you just want to sound more authentic.

I noticed a difference in how Galician is treated on Spanish TVE and on Catalan TV3 when I was watching news about the Galician elections earlier this summer. On TVE Telediario they always use subtlitles whenever Galician, Catalan or Basque is spoken. On TV3 Telenotícies they only do it for Basque.
4 x

nooj
Brown Belt
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:59 pm
Languages: english (n)
x 3360

Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:48 am

Crossing from the Baztan Valley to the Ultzama Valley, I went through the pass of Belate. Endless beech forests, a paradise of green, in what I thought was the most absolute isolation. Instead I stumbled upon a mushroom picker, a man who it turns out was German, but who had been living in Iruñea (Pamplona) for the last twenty five years, starting a family there. Our conversation took place in Basque, because he had learned Basque despite the fact that it's entirely possible to live in the capital of Nafarroa without speaking Basque.

We were two foreigners whose first language of intercommunication was - from the very first words to the last - in Basque: not in English, not in Spanish...and this is of course how it should be. Between a Colombian and a Senegalese in the South Basque Country, or between a Romanian and an Algerian in the North Basque Country, the natural language of communication in the Basque Country should be... Basque.

His daughter was a keen follower of K-Pop (of course she was) so we took a selfie to show her that Koreans were not so far away.

Image
5 x
زندگی را با عشق
نوش جان باید کرد


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: emk and 2 guests