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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:31 pm

I read an interesting paper by the linguist Jean-Pierre Cavaillé. He writes regularly on a blog I've mentioned before for its deeply interesting linguistic takes on Occitan, Italian languages, Romani, Mirandese among other things: Mescladis e còps de gula.

La question nationale chez Robert Lafont, Yves Rouquette et Joan Larzac (1967-1969)

The paper examines the early theoretical positions of three Occitan thinkers and writers, extremely important for the Occitanist movement of the 20th century. Apart from writing literary works of quality and being committed activists to various social and political movements, they also theorised about the political and social condition of Occitania.

Lafont for example was the creator of the concept of 'interior colonialism', influential in its day, as a way to understand the political and economic dominance of the centre of France over the rest of the country. Not just actively dominating but siphoning off. Keep in mind that this was in the mid 60s when the third world national liberation movements were happening all around the world. In the backdrop of Vietnam and Algeria, there was a fertile intellectual atmosphere for theorising using vocabulary and concepts drawn from Marxist thinking. It's not too hard to go from the working class that is alienated from the fruit of its labour to the people alienated from its nation due to desenfranchisement. Or a small group of intellectuals (a vanguard) who would awaken their alienated brethren (the proletariat) to their condition.

The two other thinkers, Roqueta and Larzac are actually brothers. Larzac is a socialist priest who's still around, Roqueta passed away in 2015. In the 60s, they use Lafont to bounce ideas off and at the same time they push further than him. Take the concept of interior colonialism.

Lafont distingue scrupuleusement colonisation intérieure et colonisation extérieure, justement parce que, grâce à la Révolution, les colonisés de l’intérieur, grâce au pacte national, sont des citoyens et possèdent le droit de vote. Pour Larzac, ce droit est un leurre, parce que les colonisés étant minoritaires, ils ne sauraient d’aucune façon faire avancer leur condition par les urnes. Pour lui, intérieur et extérieur ne signifient qu’au-dedans et au-dehors de l’hexagone (qui, demande-t-il, peut sérieusement parler de colonialisme intérieur pour les territoires d’outre mer ?). Tout colonialisme, quel qu’il soit, est extérieur (« se tracha totjorn d’una terra autra, situïda en defòra del punt colonizaire »43) et intérieur, car la colonisation est toujours intégrée à des degrés divers (sans intégration au moins minimale, on ne peut parler de colonisation)44. Aussi, à rebours de Lafont, il soutient que la colonisation intérieure est encore pire que celle du dehors ; elle est plus profonde, plus complète, car plus invétérée (Lafont 1977, 5745). « La colonizacion interiora es la qu’a mai capitat coma colonizacion »46.


Lafont carefully distinguishes between interior colonialism and exterior colonialism, precisely because the colonised peoples of the interior - thanks to the French Revolution, thanks to the national pact, are French citizens and have the right to vote. For Larzac however, this vote is a sham, because as the interior colonised peoples of France are minorities, they couldn't advance their position via voting anyway. For Larzac, interior and exterior can only refer to within and without continental France (who, he asks, can seriously use the term interior colonialism for the overseas French territories such as New Caledonia, Guyane etc?).

All colonialism, whatever kind it is, is both exterior (it's always about an other land, situated outside of the coloniser's place) and interior, for colonisation is always integrated to various degrees (without some integration, even minimal, there's no colonialisation to speak of). Thus unlike Lafont, Larzac argues that interior colonialism is even worse than the exterior kind, it's a deeper colonialism, more complete, because more rooted. "Interior colonisation is the colonisation that has best succeeded as colonisation".


If you've never heard of the idea that the peoples living within continental France are also victims (and you can say self-perpetrators) of colonialism, or if few Occitan thinkers have explicitly revealed themselves to be Occitan nationalists or independentists, it is in part because, as this paper argues, such views are unacceptable to the broader French speaking public. Such views must be carefully stated even within the hermetically sealed Occitan speaking community.

There is apparently an active kind of censure on the part of French media and publishing houses, even if one were to write in French:

Lafont, quant à lui, de manière très consciente, avait fait le choix de composer ses écrits politiques en français de façon à être publié par les maisons d’édition parisiennes les plus prestigieuses, en un temps où une fenêtre s’était ouverte pour ce type de production intellectuelle en français. Mais, on le sait, cette fenêtre s’est vite refermée, y compris pour Lafont lui-même (ces ouvrages ne purent plus paraître que de la manière la plus confidentielle, dans de petites maisons d’édition et désormais sans aucun relai critique national). Aujourd’hui il est devenu extrêmement difficile, sinon presque impossible, de faire accepter par les maisons d’édition parisiennes des textes sur les langues minorées de l’hexagone, du moins s’ils abordent le sujet d’un point de vue politique un tant soit peu offensif. Cela est aussi vrai de la presse régionale, comme en témoignent les chroniques inoffensives d’Yves Rouquette lui-même pour la Dépêche publiées en 2000 et cette année même 2015. Nous sommes relégués de fait, pour le partage et la discussion de ce type de discours, à l’entre-soi militant ou aux catacombes universitaires, qui ne dérangent personne


The Roqueta brothers feel a bit more free to write about these issues in Occitan, knowing they'll be little read, indeed if you google the Occitan quotations, you'll be directed to this paper.

In the following quote, you'll see a 'strong' statement by Ives Roqueta that was edited out from a document to be published in an Occitan language magazine, Viure. This censorship was a decision that was taken by Lafont himself, because it was deemed too overtly nationalistic. To understand this quote, know that Lafont made a distinction between 'primary nations' (a people) and 'secondary nations' that came later on the basis of conscious self organisation, pacts, citizenships etc. The secondary nation par excellence for Lafont is France. He himself did not see a necessary contradiction between them, although he thought that France had done a terrible job of creating itself as a secondary nation, by repressing the primary nations in order to do it.

çò que Lafònt sòna « nacion segondària », aquò’s pas per nautres qu’un Estat que cal ajudar a deperir coma tal. Çò qu’apèla « nacion primària » son de nacions sens cap d’organisacion estatala e an besonh de se’n donar una se se vòlon pas pèrdre, lenga e tot çò autre, dins un futur pròche


What Lafont calls 'secondary nation', that's nothing more than a State that we need to help die as such. What Lafont calls 'primary nation', are nations without any state organisation and that need to be granted one, if they do not wish to lose their language and everything else in a near future .

Even for the Roqueta brothers, there is a kind of self censorship at work, as Cavaillé points out. They say a bit less than what they really think, or they hold themselves back from thinking the next logical step of their premises.

He also criticises the unfortunate tendency of the Roqueta brothers to be unable to conceive of a nationalism that would not mirror in some way the French model. Thus they too easily reject Occitan nationalism as an actual political project. It's something I hear sometimes in Spain as well, 'I reject Spanish nationalism, but I also reject Basque/Catalan/Galician etc nationalism, to me they're all alike', the idea being that all nationalisms are bad because all nationalisms are alike. Roqueta writes:

Mon antinacionalisme, se en primièr s’opausa al nacionalisme francés desfaitaire d’Occitània e de sos òmes e que donc coma tal devèm denonciar de longa, me cal dire que s’opausa tanbèn al nacionalisme occitan


My antinationalism, if it is first opposed to French nationalism, destroyer of Occitania and its men, and that we must denounce strongly, then I must say that my antinationalism is also opposed to Occitan nationalism.

Spain has its own influence on the Occitan thinkers, because when the Spanish dictatorship ended and Spain became a democracy, the political organisation that was chosen for Spain was that of a decentralised country split into autonomous communities, consciously following the German model. As it so happens this works well for Lafont, as he does not want to reject his Big Country for his Little Country.
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:07 pm

Image

According to statistics obtained from the last edition of Euskaraldia, 62.2% of the participants were women. What's the reason for this gender gap?

In the columns written above, three women give their view on things. All of them agree that women are more involved and interested in cultural activities and do more things for the Basque language.

They mention that women are raised and socialised to concern themselves with i.e. raising children, education, transmitting the language, indeed according to Irati she thinks that in general, women speak Basque more often than men, in the day to day life they take the role of Ahobizi.

And so, presumably, for them it would be less of a change in linguistic habits if they took part in Euskaraldia. These are all just personal opinions however. I'd be very interested to see what is really behind the gender imbalance, is it as these three women say? Is there a hegemonic model of masculinity that blocks men from involving themselves in child raising, cultural and community engagement?
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:29 am

I'm still continuing on with Aranese (there is far more reading material than you'd expect for Aranese, which keeps me motivated), and Basque for me is a non negotiable, something I can't give up.

I consume material in Asturian, Catalan, Galician, Portuguese, Italian, French, Spanish, but no longer actively study them.

I revise my notes in modern Greek, Persian, Moroccan Arabic but don't plan to activate them right now.

Now I'm ruminating over German and Russian, not because I really want to learn them, but because my feeling of guilt over not learning them is becoming overwhelming. Some of my closest friends are German and Russian or Belarussian and I find it ludicrous that I'm learning any language but their languages, almost like I'm running away from it. Right now I talk with them either in Spanish or in English. But I'm afraid that the time spent learning Russian and German will affect my learning of Basque, which is important to me.
Last edited by nooj on Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:40 pm

I had a conversation with a Basque woman in my town, Edurne.

Her mother was born in the Philippines, but her mother's parents were from Ibarrangelu (a town in Bizkaia) and they had moved to the Phillipines. They were Basque speakers but didn't teach her Basque in the Philippines. So her mother grew up speaking Spanish, Tagalog and English. Then she moved to Lekeitio and married a Lekeitio man, Edurne's father, who was a Basque speaker and an abertzale, a Basque nationalist.

The condition of the marriage (I don't know if she was joking or not) was that she learn Basque. So the mother took private lessons and learned it herself.

But Edurne said that because her mother was a perfectionist, she had a mental block. She didn't want to speak Basque badly and so never really spoke Basque during her entire life. She spoke in Spanish to her daughter, whilst the father spoke to her in Basque.

The problem is that in order to speak a language well, you must first speak it badly. The enemy of good is perfect.

Edurne grew up during the dictatorship, when Basque was repressed. She was in the first generation to go through the clandestine ikastolas in order to have an education through Basque. She explained to me that she and other kids had classes in the teachers' homes in secret. They rotated classes from house to house every month so as to not attract suspicion.

Back then they really had no resources and teachers had to make their own resources. Ikastolas now are highly popular because of the quality of their education, incorporating the latest teaching methods... it's astonishing how much things have changed.
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:07 pm

Gaur hasi da Euskaraldia eta horretarako nire txapatxo ipini dut eta ilea mozteko gailua erostera irten naiz, eta txinatar dendan sartu eta bat erosi dut, etxera bueltatu probatzera eta horra ez zebilen! Orduan hor nago, erdi burusoila eta haserre, beraz berriro dendara joan eta beste baten truke, aldatu dut.

Okerrena da dendariek ez dakitela euskaraz, beraz erdaraz egitera behartuta nengoen...ederki hasten da Euskaraldia!

Gure amak esaten zidan bezala, ordaintzen duzuna, horixe edukiko duzu, eta zer tokatu zaidan ikusita, arrazoia zuen. Hobe nuen denda handi batera jo egin.

Baina min handiagoa ematen didana, euskaraz utzi egitearena izan da, ia egitasmoaren hasieratik. Euskaraz saiatu nintzen, benetan, baina dendaria niri begira zegoen harrituta eta azken batean galdetu zidan ze hizkuntzatan ari nintzen. :( Lekitton, berton! Ez ote du euskararen sonoritatea ezagutzen? Inork ez dio sekula euskaraz egiten?
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby crush » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:15 am

Uste dut hemen jadanik esan duzula, baina atzerritarrekin oso gutxi egiten da euskaraz. Denda haren jabearen lagun eta familia taldean seguruenik txineraz egiten dute, besteek (euskaldunek barne) erdaraz hitz egingo diote zerbait erostekotan, berak segur aski euskaraz ez dakielakoan. Nahiko triste da baina horrelaxe da :/ Gure lana hori aldatzea da, nire aurpegia nahiko europarra da beraz ez daukat hainbeste arazorik nirekin eskaraz hitz eginarazteko, baina hitz eginez gero berehala badakite ez dela nire ama-hizkuntza :P
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:22 am

Eider Rodriguez euskal idazlea da, jatorriz Errenteriakoa baina azkenaldian Hendaian bizi da. Eta duela egun batzuk, Hendaian hain zuzen ere, gertaera interesgarri bat bizi zuen. Nik itzuliko dut.

Eider Rodriguez is a Basque writer living in Hendaia. She tells about an experience she had at the Post office in Hendaia a few days ago. She wanted to send a book she had written.

Hendaiako postara joan naiz. Nik idatzitako liburu bat neraman gutunazal batean Bilbon bizi den lagun bati bidaltzeko. Postariak esan dit 10 euro balio zuela bidalketak. Nik erantzun diot liburu bat dela, jakinda liburu bidalketek tarifa berezia dutela La Posten. Berak erantzun dit frantsesez idatzita ote dagoen. Nik erantzun diot ezetz. Orduan 10 euro ordaindu behar dizkiodala. Gero erantzun diot baietz, ez diodala ongi ulertu, frantsesez dagoela.
Cowgirl arteko begirada duelu bat izan dugu. Ireki egin beharko lukeela egia den jakiteko, bekaina goititurik. "Aurrera" nik. Hurrengoan ireki egingo duela, errieta txikia egin dit eta arantzelik gabeko tarifa ezarri dit.
Hendaian idatzitako liburu bat, nire etxean idatzitako liburu bat, zeinarengatik zerga koxkor batzuk pagatzen ditugun urtero, Hendaiari buruz ere baden liburu bat, Hendaiako hizkuntzan idatzitako liburu bat.
Euskaraldiarena azaltzea beste egun baterako utzi dut.


I went to the post office in Hendaia. I had in an envelope my book to send to a friend who lives in Bilbo. The post office worker told me that sending it would cost 10 euros. I told the worker that it was a book, knowing that book shipments had a special fare at the Post. They asked me if the book was written in French. I told them no. They replied that then I had to pay 10 euros. Then I told them that actually yes, I hadn't understood them very well the the first time, the book was actually in French.

We locked eyes and had a cowboy-style battle of looks. Raising their eyebrow they said that they'd have to open it to know if I was telling the truth. "Go for it" I said. They said that next time they would open it, gave me a little talking down, and charged me the fare without the extra.

A book written in Hendaia, a book written in my home, for which I pay some taxes every year, a book that's about Hendaia in addition, written in the language of Hendaia. I left for another day the explanation of what Euskaraldia is.

Tarifs d'envoi de documents culturels :
Offre livres et brochures
Au service du rayonnement de la culture française avec une solution pour l’envoi de livres et brochures à l’étranger.
Promouvoir la culture française dans le monde
Bénéfice : accéder à un service optimal d’expédition pour livres et brochures à caractère culturel dans le monde entier
Caractéristique : une tarification de votre affranchissement qui s’adapte au poids de votre envoi
Vos documents culturels distribués dans le monde entier
Notre offre Livres et brochures est liée à une politique de promotion de la culture française dans le monde. Réservée à l’envoi de documents à caractère éducatif, scientifique ou culturel ne comportant aucune publicité, elle concerne : livres, brochures, recueils, annales, mémoires, thèses, bulletins, partitions de musique, cartes géographiques, manuscrits d’ouvrages ou de journaux, cours par correspondance, devoirs d’élèves et leurs corrigés, photocopies des documents précités.
Les livres et brochures doivent être rédigés exclusivement en Français ou en langue régionale.


Ikusten da postalari horrek ez ze,kiela bere lanaren baldintzak, zeren eta zilegi baita euskarazko liburuak bidaltzea, tarifa gehigarria ordaindu gabe. Arazoa datza, hortaz, funtzionario horren ezjakintasunean. Eguneroko bidegabekerien beste adibide arrunt bat, euskaldunen eskubideen kontra

Funtzionario hori guztiok ezagutzen dugun tirano txikia da, 'nik zuk baino hobeto badakit'-arena egiten duena. Espainiako estatuak erru asko ditu, baina gutxienez ez zaio axola bidali beharko den liburua zer hizkuntzatan idatzitako dagoen. Gainera jakin nahi nuke: benetan eskumena dauka postalariak paketeak eta gutunak irekitzeko, baimenarik gabe?

It actually turns out that yes, she could send her book in Basque without incurring extra fees, but this postal employee didn't even know the rules of their own employment, instead casually engaging in linguistic discrimination against a speaker of the indigenous language of Hendaia. The Spanish state has many many faults, but giving a crap about what language the book that is being sent through the post is written in, is not one of them.

I'd also like to know if the post office worker was really allowed to open documents in order to check what language it's written in, as they claimed.
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby guyome » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:38 am

Many interesting posts! I've been wanting to comment on several of them but never seem to find the time...
La question nationale chez Robert Lafont, Yves Rouquette et Joan Larzac (1967-1969)
I remember reading this article, as well as several others and similar topics, and being left with the feeling that these debates were a bit akin to rearranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic. Many Occitanists of the political persuasion spent (spend?) a lot of time promoting Occitania, with the avowed goal of replacing France as the point of reference (and sometimes replacing also the authentic 'terroirs' like Gascony, Provence, Languedoc,...). Instead of starting from what existed (i.e. people identifying with a local Gascon, Provençal, Limousine, etc., identity), they went straight for Occitania. Local identities were too bourgeois, rural, passeist, narrow-minded, suspect of nationalism, while to them Occitania represented the opposite.
But Occitania, as a homogenous region covering 33 departments (with 'Occitan' as their language) meant/means nothing to most people; it never existed under this name (or any other for that matter). This meant/means a lot of time and energy had to be spent on conceptualising it and spreading the idea among the ignorant masses*.

Could this time, energy and money have been better spent elsewhere? Maybe, maybe not. There's no denying that Lafont and others did a lot of good to Occitan literature for instance, so it's not like their political activity prevented them from doing anything else of more lasting value. There's also the fact that in Provence, a region that stayed relatively outside of the Occitanist craze to this day, the language hasn't fared better than anywhere else. So, it's far from evident that focusing on local identity would have been the magic bullet.

So, yes, I must admit that my personal instinct or preference is always to focus on local, meaningful, identities rather than on creating a third layer (local - Occitan - French), which most people don't identify with. But in the end, I acknowledge this is still the Titanic deck problem: the language (and other aspects of the question) were maybe just too far gone for anything to succeed.

*As an aside, I'm always amazed to see how important the topic of the name of the language is in linguistic surveys conducted by the OPLO and other insitutions. There always seems to be a question along the lines of "how do you call this language?", and when the results (possibly fudged, or at least carefully doctored) say most people call it 'Occitan', then it is celebrated as a great marketing victory. The language is dying but let's make sure people know it as 'occitan' and not, God forbid!, as 'patois' or 'béarnais' or 'provençal'...That's the important stuff!

nooj wrote:(...) The Spanish state has many many faults, but giving a crap about what language the book that is being sent through the post is written in, is not one of them. (...)
Does the Spanish state offer a special fare for books written in the languages of Spain? If not, then the comparison seems a bit disingenuous, no? If there's no such provision, then of course it wouldn't give a crap. The French post office wouldn't have cared either if notfor the discounted shipping cost. Honestly, there's a lot to criticise about the way France treats its regional language (understatement of the year) but this doesn't seem to be the case here since the discount applies to both French and the 'langues régionales'.
Seems more like a postal office fuckup. I hope the author made sure they were informed of it, as well as the city (even if technically they have no say in the matter).
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:03 am

, yes, I must admit that my personal instinct or preference is always to focus on local, meaningful, identities rather than on creating a third layer (local - Occitan - French), which most people don't identify with. But in the end, I acknowledge this is still the Titanic deck problem: the language (and other aspects of the question) were maybe just too far gone for anything to succeed.


I'm not sure anything was really tried seriously politically.

Theoretically Occitan started off in a better position at the start of the last century, numerically at least, than any of the languages in France, including Basque. Why wasn't something done to capitalise on that?

Basque seems to have at least stopped the bleeding of speakers (but hasn't found a way to increase its numbers), so by that metric it's doing the best out of the continental languages. Gascon activists I've read insist that part of this reason is that Basques have knuckled down to promote their Basque identity around which to agglutinate not a larger Southwestern identity, and they advance their Basque interests in the political sphere. I agree with them in many ways. And yet as far as I know no one's ever tried to make a Gascon nationalist party or a regionalist party or even tried to sway the mainstream parties to pay attention to Gascon, so it's not like they're doing any better.

An Occitan national project was theoretically possible. I imagine it would have been far easier to get a Gascon, Limousin, Provençal to consider themselves Occitan, than to make Alsatians, Corsicans and Tahitians into Frenchmen/women which was what happened.

Does the Spanish state offer a special fare for books written in the languages of Spain? If not, then the comparison seems a bit disingenuous, no? If there's no such provision, then of course it wouldn't give a crap. The French post office wouldn't have cared either if notfor the discounted shipping cost. Honestly, there's a lot to criticise about the way France treats its regional language (understatement of the year) but this doesn't seem to be the case here since the discount applies to both French and the 'langues régionales'.
Seems more like a postal office fuckup. I hope the author made sure they were informed of it, as well as the city (even if technically they have no say in the matter).
I don't think Spain should care about special fares either for Spanish or Spanish languages, nor does it. You can be sure that such a rule would exclude the non official Spanish languages (Aragonese, Arabic, Berber etc) from the special fares and of course non Spanish languages would be prejudiced too.

Here is what an Aragonese person (living in France) says about their own experience:

M'han ubèrto paquez mès d'una vez. É verdat que s'aceptan llibros en llengua regional, pero tamben é verdat que conoixco gent que ha perdeu la fayena per mostrar un simbolo "regional".
La mia experiéncia: pende de la persona que te trobes a La Poste.


I've had my paquets opened more than once. It's true that they accept books written in a regional language but it's true also that I know people who've lost the package because it shows a 'regional' symbol. My experience: it depends on the person you meet at the Post.

I said before in my post that the incident in the post is the petty tyranny of the functionary who doesn't know their own job, but the rule should never exist in the first place. Why exactly should the Arabic speaker or the Russian speaker be disadvantaged monetarily when they send a book written in Arabic or Russian...?
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby Saim » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:45 am

nooj wrote:I agree with them in many ways. And yet as far as I know no one's ever tried to make a Gascon nationalist party or a regionalist party or even tried to sway the mainstream parties to pay attention to Gascon, so it's not like they're doing any better.


I find this position sort of idealistic (in the philosophical sense). Political parties grow out of movements and ideological currents that actually exist on the ground. Starting a political party doesn't by itself achieve anything if there's no-one to vote for you. There's all sorts of irrelevant Cantabrian, Murcian, Extremaduran, etc. regionalist parties in Spain but that hasn't changed anything about the language policy of these regions or the identity of the average person there.

You could also take a look at the political situation in Asturias, where regionalist and nationalist parties are only a step above the Murcian and Cantabrian ones, but there's a tight-knight and vigorous activist sphere that has pushed the "Spanish" parties towards legislating in favour of the use of Asturian (although they still haven't got the symbolic "oficialidá" they're after, Asturleonese has a much stronger presence in the administrative sphere and in education than in Portuguese-adminstered Miranda, where they do use the word "official").

An Occitan national project was theoretically possible. I imagine it would have been far easier to get a Gascon, Limousin, Provençal to consider themselves Occitan, than to make Alsatians, Corsicans and Tahitians into Frenchmen/women which was what happened.


Theoretically it would be "hard" to impose national identities invented out of whole cloth in the 1940s like "Pakistani" (which is literally derived from an acronym), but there are at the very least tens of millions of people who see it as their primary identity. I'd say it's mostly politics and power that drive identities, not the other way around. If the theory doesn't reflect practice it's not worth much.

To that extent I'd say it's important to work from extant identities, but I wouldn't proscribe any sort of "pan-regional" or "ethnolinguistic" consciousness building either. I think allowing for composite, pluralistic, and fluid identities (where "Gascon" and "Occitan" don't necessarily need to contradict or compete with each other) would be ideal. That said, all of that is irrelevant without real presence and power in the social sphere. As guyome said, it's like rearranging chairs on the Titanic, or discutir sobre el sexe dels àngels, to quote an idiom common in the Romance languages.
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