Bla bla bla

[nooj]

I find this position sort of idealistic (in the philosophical sense). Political parties grow out of movements and ideological currents that actually exist on the ground. Starting a political party doesn't by itself achieve anything if there's no-one to vote for you. There's all sorts of irrelevant Cantabrian, Murcian, Extremaduran, etc. regionalist parties in Spain but that hasn't changed anything about the language policy of these regions or the identity of the average person there.

You could also take a look at the political situation in Asturias, where regionalist and nationalist parties are only a step above the Murcian and Cantabrian ones, but there's a tight-knight and vigorous activist sphere that has pushed the "Spanish" parties towards legislating in favour of the use of Asturian (although they still haven't got the symbolic "oficialidá" they're after, Asturleonese has a much stronger presence in the administrative sphere and in education than in Portuguese-adminstered Miranda, where they do use the word "official").

I agree with what you're saying. If there's no Gascon party it's because there's no popular groundswell or grassroots support for it, and if there's little support or consciousness of even a basic regional identity then there's no point accusing them of having failed to create a political party but, they've had decades now to forment such a popular consciousness, the basis for any political initiative. Occitanists at least have tried to create an 'Occitan' identity, even if it was in a somewhat artificial manner across the whole territory. And even if they haven't succeeded completely even among Occitan speakers, let alone among French monolinguals.

I mentioned the possibility of pressuring the major mainstream parties to support Gascon. In the north Basque Country, non Basque nationalist parties at least have to pay lip service to Basque in order to siphon off voters or keep them happy. In Corsica the Corsican nationalists are the force to be reckoned with. Of course the social conditions in these places are not the same, but theoretically France's political structure doesn't prevent the creation of strong regionalist parties (even if the extent of their political powers pales in comparison to the autonomous communities in Spain).

The case you cite of the mainstream parties in Asturias is such a clear example of what I wish had happened. Getting to this point where officiality is a serious discussion among mainstream Asturian parties took decades of work. And while it's true that Cantabrian nationalist/regionalist political parties have failed to advance the linguistic cause, the success of the Partido Regionalista de Cantabria has at least put forward the agenda of their autonomous community first and foremost. After all, for a linguistic programme to be successful there needs to be social and economic conditions for that to be possible (e.g. maybe Cantabrians need to think of themselves as Cantabrians, not just Spaniards who speak funny, before they can be convinced to think about their linguistic situation).

To that extent I'd say it's important to work from extant identities, but I wouldn't proscribe any sort of "pan-regional" or "ethnolinguistic" consciousness building either. I think allowing for composite, pluralistic, and fluid identities (where "Gascon" and "Occitan" don't necessarily need to contradict or compete with each other) would be ideal.

I agree.

Let me sidetrack. Ideally we'd free ourselves from the Manichean dichotomy of a fixed identity, but insofar as one is allowed to live and construct their composite and plural identities.

I make a sharp distinction between Basque and Spanish/French because I subscribe to the Basque nationalist ideology that separates the two neatly, but the Basque nationalist ideology is in part a reactionary movement that feeds from other nationalist ideologies that demand total subscription to one identity or the other. In a world where the Spanish/French say that you are either Basque OR Spanish/French, and don't give you the means to really live a shared identity in equal terms, it's no wonder that people end up choosing the first. If it was possible to really be Spanish and French but also live freely in the Basque language for example, I expect the Basque nationalist ideology to lose a significant part of its support.

In other words if the Spanish right wing really wanted to destroy Basque independence movement, they would be doing everything possible to support the Basque language, not cozying up with the far right because Spanish is supposedly an oppressed language.

But in the end, I acknowledge this is still the Titanic deck problem: the language (and other aspects of the question) were maybe just too far gone for anything to succeed.

Is there really nothing they (Gascon activists, the broader Occitanist community, the average speaker) could do to save their language? Is that it? Are they doomed to a slow extinction? There's really nothing they can do now? I don't mean this as a rhetorical question guyome, I am desperate to find any source of light. Despite the mistakes of the past, what can they do now, realistically?

[guyome]

Sorry for the multiple quotes and isolating sentences, I hope it doesn't betray your thoughts.

Why exactly should the Arabic speaker or the Russian speaker be disadvantaged monetarily when they send a book written in Arabic or Russian...?

Well, in a perfect world all books could be sent for free, maybe even every kind of package. But, meanwhile, it doesn't seem scandalous to me that only books in French and indigenous languages of France benefit from this.
To me, it's a bit like saying that Arabic or Russian speakers are disadvantaged because they can attend school only in Basque or Spanish in Bilbao.

Theoretically Occitan started off in a better position at the start of the last century, numerically at least, than any of the languages in France, including Basque. Why wasn't something done to capitalise on that?

It may have had more speakers but I'm not sure it was in a healthier position than Basque, Breton, Corsican, etc. I wonder also if the fact that it was spread over so large a territory wasn't a problem (and still is).
Mistral and the Félibrige did capitalise somewhat on Occitan still being widespread in the 1850s-1930s though, but political action was always a big no-no for them. In my (very humble) opinion, there are two reasons for this:
- France had already been a unified country for so long at the time that I don't think separatism was appealing to many in the mid-19th c. For instance, you don't see Corsica or Brittany taking advantage of the many, many revolutions and turmoil of the 19th c. to try and regain their independance
- the 1870 Franco-German war and the loss of Alsace-Lorraine meant that the next 50 years were spent in a fervent nationalistic fever, with getting Alsace-Lorraine back very much in everyone's mind ("Pensons-y toujours, n’en parlons jamais"). In this climate, I think even the tiniest indication of separatism would have been very badly received in most circles.

An Occitan national project was theoretically possible. I imagine it would have been far easier to get a Gascon, Limousin, Provençal to consider themselves Occitan, than to make Alsatians, Corsicans and Tahitians into Frenchmen/women which was what happened.

In 1600, maybe? In 1900, I doubt it. As I said above (and this is my take on French history, I don't pretend I'm right), I don't think an Occitan (or Breton, etc) national project would have gone very far.

Yet, some things were tried and you can read past issues of País Gascons to get an idea of the atmosphere in the 1970s-2000s. I have read a few articles and it seems to me that it's same old, same old: Occitanists try and lobby influential political figures, only to have them pay lip service to Occitan (if that!).
There are also some "regional" political parties (Unser Land in Alsace, Partit occitan, Union Démocratique Bretonne,...). Their influence seems pretty limited though.
And even in Corsica, where the language has held on tolerably well and independantists/nationalists are a force to be reckoned with (1st political force in the recent years), intergenerational transmission of the language is now low.

So, what did the Basques do right that would explain their relative success?

Gascon activists I've read insist that part of this reason is that Basques have knuckled down to promote their Basque identity around which to agglutinate not a larger Southwestern identity, and they advance their Basque interests in the political sphere.

Yes, I think that kind of is what I said in previous posts: the Basques knuckled down on an existing identity instead of spending time building and promoting a mythical Medieval Vasconia or the like. Now, this isn't to say that there aren't myths and maybe less savory aspects in Basque nationalism, but at least it seems to offer a "roman national" (as could be said in French) that clearly appeals to many Basque people. On the other hand, Occitania, the troubadours and the Cathars form the bedrock of the Occitan "roman national" but failed to capture the imaginations of a sizeable portion of the population, except maybe as some kind of folkloric background (cue the ubiquitous Occitan cross, even in regions where it has no previous history).

Another idea, maybe the harsh repression of the Franco dictatorship actually helped Basque? By that, I mean that confronted with outright agression Basque speakers reacted by holding on to their language and culture even more strongly. France's approach was more...pernicious. Yes, pupils were ridiculed for speaking patois in school but apart from that (not that it's nothing!) you could speak Occitan in the streets, publish books, hold meetings in Occitan without any problem. I think this approach ended up being more efficient in the long run because it anesthetized people instead of antagonising them.

Is there really nothing they (Gascon activists, the broader Occitanist community, the average speaker) could do to save their language? Is that it? Are they doomed to a slow extinction? There's really nothing they can do now? I don't mean this as a rhetorical question guyome, I am desperate to find any source of light. Despite the mistakes of the past, what can they do now, realistically?

Honestly? Apart from having 10 children each and raising them in Gascon, I don't know. And since I'm not really part of the Occitanist community nor can I really be called a speaker, what I can say may be irrelevant anyway. Hobbyists like myself can buy books, subscribe to a couple of journals, occasionally speak and write the language, but in the end that doesn't do much to maintain the language.
Most people will learn a language only if they need to and/or see some practical use for it. With Occitan being spoken by 1(?)% of the population, there is no real need or use for it.

[nooj]

Another idea, maybe the harsh repression of the Franco dictatorship actually helped Basque? By that, I mean that confronted with outright agression Basque speakers reacted by holding on to their language and culture even more strongly. France's approach was more...pernicious. Yes, pupils were ridiculed for speaking patois in school but apart from that (not that it's nothing!) you could speak Occitan in the streets, publish books, hold meetings in Occitan without any problem. I think this approach ended up being more efficient in the long run because it anesthetized people instead of antagonising them.

Aipatzen duzunak gogoratzen dit irakurri nuen iradokizun bat, irlandar batek esan zuena, zera: hobeto izango litzateke Irlanda librea izango ez balitz, hau da oraindik britaniar imperioaren menpean. Horrela elkartuko ziren hizkuntzaren inguruan ikur nazionalaren modura. Errealitatean aldiz, independentzia lortu eta gero, hizkuntza pixka bat baztertu zuten. Jakina ezin dugu jakin ea horrela gertatuko zela ala ez.

I read somewhere from an Irish person that maybe it would've been better for Ireland to stay under British domination. Without political independence, the Irish would have rallied behind the language as a symbol of resistance. It's impossible to say of course, pure fantasy.

Honestly? Apart from having 10 children each and raising them in Gascon, I don't know.

Txantxetan ari zara, baina eskerrak Yiddishak Hassidimak dauzkan bere onerako.

At least Yiddish has the Hassidim!

Yes, I think that kind of is what I said in previous posts: the Basques knuckled down on an existing identity instead of spending time building and promoting a mythical Medieval Vasconia or the like. Now, this isn't to say that there aren't myths and maybe less savory aspects in Basque nationalism, but at least it seems to offer a "roman national" (as could be said in French) that clearly appeals to many Basque people. On the other hand, Occitania, the troubadours and the Cathars form the bedrock of the Occitan "roman national" but failed to capture the imaginations of a sizeable portion of the population, except maybe as some kind of folkloric background (cue the ubiquitous Occitan cross, even in regions where it has no previous history).

Guztiz ados.

Euskal mitologia ondo eraikia da eta are hobeto erabilia. Pentsa, badaude irentsi duten atzerritarak. Izan ere mendeetan zehar bidaiariak etorri izan dira Euskal Herrira, erromantizismoagatik bultzatuta. Mito haietatik bat: 'euskara da europako hizkuntzarik zaharrena' etabar. Baina mitoak eduki behar ditugu, dirudienez, eta gutxienez euskaldunek miteei etekina ongi atera diote. Mito okerragoak dira, estatu handiek erabili zituztenak eta tira, 'trobadors, Cathars, convivència' eta hori guztia, nahiz eta oinarri gutxi izan, 'guk irabazi dugu konkisteen bitartez' baino roman nazional polittagoa da.

The Basque myths have been well used, even foreigners swallowed it, e.g. 'Basque is Europe's oldest language.' I don't begrudge them for that. At least Basques used these myths to good effect. There are worse myths used to worse effect by the big countries, to wage wars etc. I personally find the Cathars, trobadors and convivencia to be a nicer roman national than the reality of we won through superior firepower.

[guyome]

I read somewhere from an Irish person that maybe it would've been better for Ireland to stay under British domination. Without political independence, the Irish would have rallied behind the language as a symbol of resistance. It's impossible to say of course, pure fantasy.

I agree, it was just me trying to find why Basque held on rather well compared to Occitan! Just note that in my version, it is necessary for repression to end at some point. No staying under British/Franco's domination. Had it lasted a couple decades longer, it seems plausible that Basque would have suffered tremendously, possibly past the point of no return.

At least Yiddish has the Hassidim!

So...you're saying we should try and get Hasidim to start a community in Bearn (or elsewhere in Gascony), where they will adopt Gascon to isolate themselves from the surrounding French speakers? That's a thought

[nooj]

Bai horixe! Ideia ona eman didazu!

My God, that's a great idea!



Interesatuko zaizun nobela bat bada, The Yiddish Policemen's Union Michael Chabonek idatzia, eleberri beltza generokoa. Bigarren mundu gerraren ondoren, Israel estatua suntsitu egin da eta Palestinara joan ordez, Alaskara joaten dira etorkizun juduak. Han eraikitzen dute beste aterpe bat. Zoritxarrez ez dago Yiddish-ko itzulpenarik.

Maybe this book will interest you, The Yiddish Policemen's Union by Michael Chabon. In this alternative fiction, in the early 20th century a safe haven is created for Jews in Alaska and many Jews end up settling there. Unfortunately there's no Yiddish translation.

[guyome]

Yes, I read it many many years ago when I was getting my hands on anything Yiddish related I could find! I don't remember much about it honestly.

Occitan seems to have produced its fair share of language-centered alternative fiction. Just a couple of days ago, I read a short story by Leon Còrdas. In it, he envisions a world in which Hitler got the atomic bomb before the USA and used it to end World War 2. German then becomes the new lingua franca of the 'pacified' world, much to the dismay of French Academicians and the like, who lament the progressive demise of French among the population and its museification. Còrdas' way of getting back at French for what it did to Occitan.

[Saim]

I remember the only novel I read in Occitan was about a man who turned two people into immortal robots so they would keep speaking Occitan forever. I don't have my hands on it anymore and I can't remember what the title was.

[nooj]

So instead of saying policia (police), we could also say the maduro (the cops) or the Calo pestañí (the pigs, I suppose would be an English equivalent?).

When I first came to Spain my housemate was the one who taught me Spanish, including all the Caló words I know. Mostly over long games of Settlers of Catan after work, but also via her group of friends who were involved in raves, okupa among many other things. She was a native of Madrid, had a vast knowledge of her city and neighbourhood, and was also a part-time drug dealer. All sorts of people from diverse backgrounds came through our living room. As a beginner who literally stepped off the plane not knowing much of the Spanish language, being exposed to all the socio-economic layers of a language was enriching. I try to do that with Basque too.

In the south Basque Country there are three police forces.

The Basque police: the Ertzaintza in the Basque Autonomous Community and the Nafarroako Foruzaingoa in Navarre. The Basque police are the ones you'll see usually in the day to day e.g. doing traffic stops and domestic stuff.

The Guardia Civil: the police with national jurisdiction, like the Spanish gendarmerie. During the previous decades, they were the principal agents used to fight against ETA.

If you want to be despective, you can call the Basque police zipaioak. Just as people who worked for the British Empire were called sepoys in their time, so are the Basque police (in the eyes of some). In general all police, whether Ertzaintza or Guardia Civil, can be called txakurrak which means dogs.

Today I was walking with a friend along some cliffs. Looking out to the ocean, I saw a police boat going past. I pointed it out and she remembered: "Guardia Zibil, jo ta bertan hil". A slogan from the dark days of terrorism. In English, "Guardia Civil, strike and kill them on the spot".

The Guardia Civil maintains a headquarters in the town of Ondarroa. A recent Basque TV show was filmed there with the Ertzaintza as protagonists, it's called Hondar ahoak. A Scandinavian kind of police noir drama. I'll talk more about it on another day.

I don't make it a point to talk with the Ertzaintza or the Guardia Civil but whenever I do, especially with the Guardia Civil, what language to use with them in an interesting question. Like many people I feel uneasy using Basque with the Guardia Civil. For one thing they're not from the Basque Country and there's plenty of very recent stories and experiences of them treating Basque speakers badly for speaking Basque to them, instead of Spanish. So, many people automatically speak to them in Spanish. Some people speak to them purposely in Basque (as they have every right to, Basque is an official language here).

[nooj]

Cainntear's YouTube channel for Scottish Gaelic is wonderful. There are so many people here who are passionate about their languages and willing to give some time or advice to help others.

I've noticed that I'm far more of a passive consumer than an active giver, that's reflected in my own language practices. I read, write some stuff, watch and talk but what do I create?

Such a gift would be writing a book, music, giving something back to the language community (Catalan speakers in the Balearic Islands, Basque speakers, Galician speakers etc) that helped me so much. The ultimate gift would be transmitting the language. And yet if I were to have children here in the Basque Country would I be able to transmit Basque to them? Could I make Basque the language of the home and not just rely on the school to do this job. I think with my current level of Basque I could do that, if I had to. Many parents actually learn at the same time as their children who quickly outstrip them.

I'm obviously not near the level of a native Basque speaker, but that is my ultimate goal. Not because I actually plan to have a family here, but 'as if'. That gives me a more concrete goal to work for, to be able to transmit Basque (if it were necessary), in all of its full richness. A more realistic concern for me is whether I am able to transmit my heritage language. Now that's a real problem.

[nooj]

A short sketch made by students at the Ibarrekolanda high school, located in Bilbo. To celebrate Euskaraldia.

One girl wears the shirt with the slogan 'Euskaraz bizi gura dot' which means I want to live in Basque, in the Western Basque dialect. But despite the message, she speaks in Spanish.

The other girl, who speaks in Basque, is getting ready for her Physical Education classes where they need to do sport, so she wears a football shirt of Real Madrid (although she is an Athletic supporter).

The other girl is incredulous of her choice of t-shirt. "You're wearing the t-shirt of the team of the (Spanish) Empire! " she says.

The other girl retorts:

kamiseta honek ez nau egiten Madrilista, zureak zu euskalduna egiten ez zaituen bezala

This t shirt doesn't make me into a Real Madrid supporter just like your t shirt doesn't make you into a Basque (speaker).

The title of the skit is 'egiten duguna gara' which means we are what we do. I would add, we are what we speak.