Bla bla bla

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nooj
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Re: Bla bla bla

Postby nooj » Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:47 pm

Saim wrote:Sorpréndeme ver a palabra salir en galego en canto de saír (para eso non era preciso salir da nosa terra). Vexo que o castrapo non é nada novo. Tamén é interesante a palabra predomiñantemente que non sai no dicionario da RAG. Cunha procura (ou debería dicir “dicer” pesquisa? :P ) de Google atopei-na nunha obra de Castelao (Sempre en galiza).


Eu non sei se supón tanto problema utilizarmos o eso en vez do iso, como efectivamente a norma galega nos obriga, sendo corriquiera abondo a alternancia entre /e~i/ nos pronomes dos distintos dialectos galegos. Digamos que é o de menos a estas alturas cando temos tantos outros castelanismos. :cry: Salir é un claro castelanismo dos que me amolan, porque os castelanismos que encaixan ben cos patróns e tendencias do galego-portugués, podesme atá convencer a aceptalos. Fora da rexión do Eo-Navia, onde creo que din salir, o salir non debería ser aceptado...pero a cousa é que Castelao non tivo unha norma, claro. Foi antes do seu tempo. Polo xeral, acho que gasta un galego moi bo, pero os castelanismos veñen desde hai muito atrás, temos de ter en conta que son séculos de diglosia, é natural que falase un galego non normativo.

Velaquí algo interesante:

Image

Image

Algunhas destas formas que utilizaba Camões lembran moito o galego. Exemplos, non só as normas ortográficas que sempre poden ir mudando co tempo, senón conxugacións tamén. Por exemplo, Camões di impida, impidas en vez de impeça, impeças como en portugués moderno. En galego tambén, esta conxugación é regular. Pido, pides, pide etc. Pida, pidas, pida etc.
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Re: Bla bla bla

Postby nooj » Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:57 pm

Image

This is the Valli el Herti (Valle del Jerte), in the extreme northwest of Extremadura. Like I said before, it's said that Extremaduran has better survived as a community language in the north west of Extremadura than anywhere else. It has a total population of 11 000 people, spread over several towns. In one of these towns, El Tornu (El Torno), the town administration has put up some interesting visual representations of the language. I've never been to the valley, but look at all the hiking opportunities! Maybe I'll go for Holy Week.
The town of El Tornu, population 843:

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I'd be interested to know what Spanish speakers can understand of this. I have a translation thanks to an Extremaduran speaker, which I've put below. Highlight to see.

La que nos ha caído con el habla de El Torno, es que os metéis en unos berenjenales,
La trifulca que se acerca, esta noche va a haber jaleo. Aunque "fusquía" suele ser jaleo, reyerta, en algunos lugares también es "tormenta/nubes".
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Re: Bla bla bla

Postby nooj » Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:46 pm

nooj wrote:One of my favourite Basque poets is Bitoriano Gandiaga (1928-2001). He had a sensibility towards nature that I identify with, as well as a religiosity that permeates his works. He was a Franciscan monk.


Here's an unpublished poem of his:

Bila nabilkizu.
Baina agian ez dut
zertan bila ibili.

Agian zeu ere
neure bila zabiltz.

Agian aski dut
zeuk aurki nazazun
begira egotea.


I go looking for You
but maybe
I don't need to go looking

Maybe You too
are looking for me

Maybe it's enough
for You to catch me looking
at You
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Re: Euskara (berriro)

Postby nooj » Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:01 am

nooj wrote:A poem written by the Basque poet Artze.

Eguzkiak urtzen du han goian
gailurretako elurra
uharka da jausten ibarrera
geldigaitza den oldarra.


Up on high, the sun melts
The snow on the peaks
And it rushes down in a flood to the valley
An unstoppable assault

Gure baita datza eguzkia
iluna eta izotza
urratu dezakeen argia
urtuko duen bihotza.


Within us is the sun,
as well as darkness and ice
A light that can tear apart the darkness
A heart that will melt the ice

Bihotza bezain bero zabalik
besoak eta eskuak
gorririk ikus dezagun egia
argiz beterik burua.



Arms and hands
As warmly open like the heart
Let us see the raw truth
A head illuminated by light

Bakoitzak urraturik berea
denon artean geurea
etengabe gabiltza zabaltzen
gizatasunari bidea.


Each individual, clearing their own path
And between us all, making what is ours
We're endlessly widening
The path to humanity.

Inon ez inor menpekorikan
nor bere buruaren jabe
herri guztiok bat eginikan
ez gabiltza gerorik gabe.


No one, anywhere, subject to another
Each one the master of themselves
All peoples made one
Then we will not be without a future

Batek goserikan diraueno
ez gara gu asetuko
beste bat loturik deino
ez gara libre izango.


So long as one person is hungry
We will not be full
So long as one person is locked up
We will not be free.

Below is the poem set to music by Mikel Laboa:



Revisiting this song/poem which I've re-translated, I'm reminded of a long-standing debate in the Basque Country as to what the national hymn for the Basque Country should be. The Basque Country doesn't have, for example, anything as accepted and institutionalised as Els Segadors in Catalonia. There's a variety of proposals, none of which have gotten widespread acceptance. Some people have seriously put forward this poem by Artze made into a song by Laboa. And I understand why. It's everything that the Basque Country and the world should be. I feel so strongly about it that I've memorised it by heart.

Here's another poem by Artze.

Image

be a door for me,

love,

let me be a path for you!


be door me,

love,

me path you!


door,

love,

path!
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Re: Bla bla bla

Postby nooj » Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:39 pm



Xorieri mintzo zen is a song originally written by the North Basque singer Mixel Labéguerie, famously put to song by Erramun Martikorena (1943-). Martikorena's version is 'the' definitive version of the song, the one that most Basques know. I heard Erramun sing this song when he came to my town! You wouldn't expect a shepherd like him (he is from Baigorri, in Baxe-Nafarroa) to be attracted to the shores of Bizkaia, but he comes quite regularly. He likes the town's atmosphere, attitude, people.

The band Huntza recently made this beautiful cover, which is very respectable as well. Notice that it's two Basque women from Gipuzkoa singing the song which was written in the Lapurdi dialect. When singing in Basque, you should maintain the dialect of the song.



Xorieri mintzo zen, mintzo zen errekari
Oihaneko zuhaitzeri ta zeruko izarreri
Mintzo zen haizeari, xoro batentzat zaukaten
Xorieri mintzo zen xoro batentzat zaukaten.

Ez zakien irakurtzen gizonen liburutan
Bainan ongi bazakien zeruko seinaletan
Zeruko seinaletan ta jenden bihotzetan.
Haurrek zuten harrikatzen, zahar gaztek trufatzen.

Etxekoek berek ongi laneko baliatzen
Laneko baliatzen eta gosez pagatzen.
Hil da xoroa bakarrik bakarrik da ehortzi
Ez zen han krixtau bat ere salbu lau hilketari
Salbu lau hilketari ta apeza kantari.

Hilobian ezartzean haizea zen gelditu
Xoriak ziren ixildu zerua zen goibeldu
Zerua zen goibeldu ta jendea orroitu.


He spoke to the birds, he spoke to the river
To the trees of the forest and the stars of the sky as well
He spoke to the wind, they thought him to be a fool.

He didn't know how to read the books of men
But he knew well how to read the signs of the heavens
The signs of the heavens and the hearts of men.
Children threw stones at him, the young and the old made fun of him.

His own family used his ability to work well
They used him for work, and they paid him with hunger.
The fool died alone, alone he was buried.
There wasn't a soul at the funeral, except for four gravediggers
Four gravediggers and a priest singing.

When they placed him in the grave,
The wind died down
The birds fell silent
The skies darkened
The skies darkened
And the people remembered.

Xorieri, zuhaitzeri, izarreri - depending on the Basque dialect, the dative plural declension can be either: -ei, -eri or -er. Xoriei, xorieri, xorier.

trufatzen - loanword from Occitan trufar.

krixtau - a person. Like in many Italian languages, where Christian = person, but in Basque it's not as lexicalised as it is in Neapolitan for example.
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Re: Bla bla bla

Postby nooj » Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:49 pm

The director went through hundreds of towns in North Catalonia to talk with not the last speakers of Catalan, but certainly the last generation of Catalans who had learned the language natively when it was still the language of socialisation - with the notable exception of the Gitans, who are conspicuously absent in the documentary.


As I said, the Gitanos are the last community in North Catalonia to transmit the Catalan language as a community language. In fact, they have made of it a symbolic and practical bulwark against the Paios (the non-Gitanos). It's incredible that they've managed to keep the language and resist French assimilation when they have everything working against them.



I cut this clip from a documentary called Cas Escolar, about a troubled public school in a troubled neighbourhood (Sant Jaume) in Perpinyà. The majority of the students are Gitanos. In the clip we can see three young girls at first speaking in French, then in Gitano, as they call their language. Catalan is the Gitano language by autonomasia. The fact that most non-Gitano Catalans in North Catalonia have abandoned the language or been forced to abandon the language, means that their near-exclusive identification of Catalan with their ethnicity doesn't really need to ever be challenged. They know that their language is also spoken south of the border, but to them the Catalans over there speak Gitano with a paio accent... :) Indeed, there is a foreign country where millions of people speak Gitano without being Gitano. What a strange country Catalonia is...

Look how they conceptualise the distance between them and the French. They do not consider themselves to be French, they say it openly. Towards the end there's also some interesting Caló words that one of the girls learned from her grandmother.

I have a crazy, wacky suggestion I want to make. I'm not saying it'll solve all the problems, but I do think it will help solve some of the problems in the troubled public school. And that is, instead of using school to assimilate Gitano children and make them into nice Frenchmen and women...how about you don't? If the school was in Catalan instead, don't you think that there would be a greater willingness of Gitano families to send their kids to school and also a greater desire for Gitano children to stay there? With their language and their culture valued? Just a crazy, wacky idea...teach the children in their mother language. The documentary doesn't make that link between French and failure at school, but it should.



This clip has nothing to do with the documentary. It's just an ordinary TV report in the same neighbourhood of the same city, about a local influencer who has become famous. Watch it from the beginning to finish, paying attention to the languages used. The old lady at 0:40 is a paia who, if she followed the general trend in North Catalonia probably did not transmit her language to her children. If she did, then her kids probably would not have transmitted the language to her grandchildren. But contrast that to the young (presumably) Gitanos who come out speaking Catalan! e.g. 1:05 or 1:28.
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Saim
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Re: Bla bla bla

Postby Saim » Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:12 am

nooj wrote:Salir é un claro castelanismo dos que me amolan, porque os castelanismos que encaixan ben cos patróns e tendencias do galego-portugués, podesme atá convencer a aceptalos. Fora da rexión do Eo-Navia, onde creo que din salir, o salir non debería ser aceptado...pero a cousa é que Castelao non tivo unha norma, claro. Foi antes do seu tempo. Polo xeral, acho que gasta un galego moi bo, pero os castelanismos veñen desde hai muito atrás, temos de ter en conta que son séculos de diglosia, é natural que falase un galego non normativo.


Debería precisar que non achei a palabra salir nesa obra de Castelao, senón predomiñantemente. Non sei de onde ven esa palabra en realidade, xa que non existen domiñar* ou domiño* en galego que eu saiba. Será un hipergaleguismo?

Velaquí algo interesante:

[...]

Algunhas destas formas que utilizaba Camões lembran moito o galego. Exemplos, non só as normas ortográficas que sempre poden ir mudando co tempo, senón conxugacións tamén. Por exemplo, Camões di impida, impidas en vez de impeça, impeças como en portugués moderno. En galego tambén, esta conxugación é regular. Pido, pides, pide etc. Pida, pidas, pida etc.


Interesante, grazas por compartilo. :)
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nooj
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Re: Bla bla bla

Postby nooj » Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:22 pm

Image


Pierre Bordazarre (1908-1979) was a famous Basque bertsolari and musician from Zuberoa. He is the one on the left of this photo, playing the txirula or Basque flute. He is better known by the name Etxahun-Iruri, because his farmhouse was called Etxahun, and he was born in the town of Iruri. He is responsible for some of the most recognisable songs in the Zuberoan repertoire, such as Agur Xiberoa. I'm going to post a fantastic cover of this song by the Zuberoan reggae band Xiberoots. I add some notes that help the comprehension for someone who only knows standard Basque.



Sorlekhia ützirik gazte nintzalarik
Parisen sarthü nintzan kurajez betherik
Plaserez gose eta bürian hartürik
Behar niala alagera bizi
Bostetan geroztik
Nigar egiten dit
Xiberua zuri


When I was young and I had left my home
I went to Paris, full of bravado
Hungry for pleasure and determined
To live gaily
So many times afterwards
Have I cried
For you Zuberoa

alagera - alai (c.f. alegre)

Agur Xiberua
Bazter güzietako xokhorik eijerrana
Agur sorlekhia
Zuri ditit ene ametsik goxuenak
Bihotzan erditik
Bostetan elki deitadazüt hasperena
Zü ützi geroztik
Bizi niz trixterik
Abandonatürik
Ez beita herririk
Parisez besterik
Zü bezalakorik.


Hail to you Zuberoa
The most beautiful of all lands
Hail, my birthplace
Whom my sweetest dreams are about
From the centre of my heart
Many times have you drawn out a sigh
After leaving you
I live sadly
Abandoned
For there is no other place
Not Paris either
Like you.

elki - atera

deitadazüt - didazu

Palazio eijerretan gira alojatzen
Eta segür goratik aide freska hartzen
Gaiñ behera soginez beitzait üdüritzen
Orhi gañen nizala agitzen
Bene ez dira heben
Bazterrak berdatzen
Txoriek khantatzen!


We live in beautiful palaces
And from very high up we breath fresh air
Looking up and down, it seems as if
I am on top of Mt Orhi
But here, the lands do not turn green
Nor do the birds sing!

Orhi - a mountain in Zuberoa, famous in Basque culture. Frequently mentioned in Basque proverbs in relation to a proverbial bird there. It's also one of the homes of the goddess Mari.

Image

Ametsa lagün nezak
Ni Atharratzerat
Ene azken egünen han iragaitera
Orhiko txoriaren khantüz behatzera
Pharka ditzan nik egin nigarrak
Hots xiberotarrak
aintzinian gora
Üskaldün bandera!


Dreams, help me
To go to Atharratze
So that I can pass my last days there
Witnessing the Orhi bird's song
That he might forgive the tears that I have shed
Zuberoans!
Let us raise before us
The Basque flag!

Atharratzerat - Atharratze-Sorholüze, one of the principal towns of Zuberoa.

Image
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Re: Bla bla bla

Postby nooj » Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:48 pm

Here is another poem by Etxahun-Iruri. Again, covered by Xiberoots.



Oihanian zuinen eijer
Txorino bat kantari
Eskualdün arbolari
Zazpi probintzier
Amodioz diot gazter
Eskuarari bethi exker
Jarraikiz aiten ürratxer
Ez sekülan bazter


In the forest, how beautifully sings
A little bird
To the Tree of the Basques
To the 7 provinces
I say with love to the young people
Thanks always to our Basque language
Following in the footsteps of our fathers
Never abandon it.

Eskualdün arbolari - the Tree of Gernika.

Ez deia xarmagarri
Nuri ez dü plazer
Txori bat kantan ari
Eskualdün aurhider


Isn't it wonderful
Who doesn't it bring pleasure to
A bird singing
To our Basque brothers

Nuri ez dü plazer - you'd expect the nor-nori-nork structure to be used (dio). I asked a Zuberoan speaker and they told me that in the North Basque dialects, the nor-nori-nork structure is often collapsed down to nor-nork. It's something I've also noticed before. Yes yes, as a learner you fill your head with many many verb forms...and it turns out native speakers sometimes don't use them. :lol:

O txoria anitxetan
Zurekilan batian
Boztarioz kantatzian
Nian desiretan
Sartü gira plazeretan
Egün plaza eder huntan
Nahiz boztario ezarri
Eskual bihotzetan


O bird, many times
I have wanted to sing happily
Together with you
Today we have entered with pleasure
To this beautiful town square
Wanting to place joy
In the hearts of Basques

Hots, anaie maitiak
Bandera esküetan
Eskualdünak beikira


Listen, my beloved brothers
With the flag in the hand
For we are Basques.
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Re: Bla bla bla

Postby nooj » Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:17 pm

I would never disparage the standard Basque language, which has brought nothing but benefits to the Basque language. Without it, the Basque language would probably be dead.

However, I've long thought that one of the important roles it fulfills, as a supra-dialectical lingua franca, should not be exclusively filled by standard Basque. That is to say, I think we should talk to each other in our dialects as much as possible and where appropriate, and thereby learn bits and pieces from each other and also habituate ourselves to each other's dialects.

Therefore I was extremely pleased to see this interview on Hamaika Telebista, a private Basque television channel. One day I must talk about the growing audiovisual industry in the Basque language.

I haven't talked about it, but right now as we speak, the greatest cultural event in the Basque Country is taking place.

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Korrika, a non-stop, round the clock relay race that goes on for 11 days across over 2000km, from one corner of the Basque Country to the other. The principal monetary aim is to raise funds for the Basque language schools and the adult Basque language schools, but in practice, it's much more than that...it's hard to explain, but it's like a shot of adrenaline into the Basque world. Literally hundreds of thousands of people take part in some way or form, making it probably the greatest language related activity of its kind in the world.



Well, here is an interview between two Basque journalists in the van that follows the runners. One is Inexa Decung from Zuberoa and the other is Udane Arbeo Astigarraga, from Gipuzkoa. While the latter sticks to standard Basque, the former speaks in her Zuberoan variety and I can assure you that she doesn't try to do what Zuberoans often do when talking to Basques from other provinces, which is change to a Low Navarran or Lapurdi dialect (or their approximation of it). Here, she just talks in her variety with no concessions, and it's glorious! More of this please.

I'm also pleased with my Zuberoan dialect studies, as I can understand everything she says :D

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