Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Daniel N. » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:41 am

Radioclare wrote:Croatian
On my commutes this week, I cleared my Memrise backlog which was in excess of 1,000 items :shock:

I've also been listening to quite a bit of new (to me) music on Youtube recently, and found three more songs this week which I really like. The first is by a band with the ominous name of M.O.R.T and is called 'Meni se skače' (I feel like jumping); despite the slightly ominous name of the band, this is one I've been listening to to lift my mood this week :)

This song is an excellent illustration of a couple of (advanced) grammar points. How would you translate this to English?

Jer meni se ne da biti komad leda

(I'm really asking, I don't know the best translation, meni se ne da is not exactly the same as the feel-like construction)

Radioclare wrote:The second is called 'Biram' (I choose) by a band called Detour and this is probably the one I've had on repeat the most this week.

Detour is one of the most popular bands in Croatia in the last decade or so. I used some of their songs in my blog, and they were very supportive when I contacted them.

I hope your Russian will take off soon :)
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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Radioclare » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:12 pm

Daniel N. wrote:This song is an excellent illustration of a couple of (advanced) grammar points. How would you translate this to English?

Jer meni se ne da biti komad leda

(I'm really asking, I don't know the best translation, meni se ne da is not exactly the same as the feel-like construction)


I've been thinking about this and I can't find a satisfactory way to translate it at all :(

I had a look at my textbook and it makes a distinction between "inclinational se-verbs"...

Screenshot 2017-07-18 22.48.51.png


.. and "desiderative se-verbs"...
Screenshot 2017-07-18 22.50.36.png


...with "ne da se" being an example given of the latter...

Screenshot 2017-07-18 22.51.54.png


Screenshot 2017-07-18 22.55.01.png


After I read all that my main conclusion was just that my head hurt :lol: And none of that helps translate the emphasis implied in starting the phrase with "meni". So in answer to your question, I can't come up with a better option than "I really don't want to be a block of ice" :?
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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby NIKOLIĆ » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:20 am

Danijele, I'm not sure if this sentence has a slightly different meaning in Croatian, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

To me the phrase "meni se ne da biti komad leda" in this case means something like "I really want to become a block of ice, but I cannot become one because it just isn't possible or something/someone is preventing me from becoming one, or I haven't had the opportunity to become one yet."

Edit: OK, I just had a listen to the song, and in the context of the song Clare's translation seems good. But this sentence on its own to me still means what I wrote in the paragraph above. Interesting.

I did a bit of googling and found this song, and the chorus goes:

Baš mi se ne da dušu da smirim.
Baš mi se ne da da mi sunce sine.
Baš mi se ne da, a ja samo hoću malo sreće i malo topline.

All of these sentences to me mean: "I really want for / I tried to do something about it .... but it just isn't happening for me / hasn't happened yet."

Last edited by NIKOLIĆ on Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Saim » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:03 am

NIKOLIĆ wrote:Danijele, I'm not sure if this sentence has a slightly different meaning in Croatian, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

To me the phrase "meni se ne da biti komad leda" in this case means something like "I really want to become a block of ice, but I cannot become one because it just isn't possible or something/someone is preventing me from becoming one, or I haven't had the opportunity to become one yet."


Koliko ja znam, ekvivalent konstrukcije ne da mi se + infinitiv je u srpskom jeziku mrzi me da + prezent. Po mom iskustvu Hrvati ne razumeju tu konstrukciju (čak se i jednoj Hrvatici iz ZG učinilo da sam pogrešio kao stranac kad sam nešto rekao tipa mrzi me da učim, pa mi je objasnila da mrzeti zapravo znači to hate :lol: ), a svako je od njih predložio konstrukciju "ne da mi se učiti" kao pravi oblik. Nikad nisam čuo tu konstrukciju kod Srba (mada možda grešim, najduže što sam bio u Srbiji je pet meseci).

EDIT: Vidim da je gramatika koju Radioclare citira već objasnila te razlike.
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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby NIKOLIĆ » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:41 am

Saim wrote:Koliko ja znam, ekvivalent konstrukcije ne da mi se + infinitiv je u srpskom jeziku mrzi me da + prezent. Po mom iskustvu Hrvati ne razumeju tu konstrukciju (čak se i jednoj Hrvatici iz ZG učinilo da sam pogrešio kao stranac kad sam nešto rekao tipa mrzi me da učim, pa mi je objasnila da mrzeti zapravo znači to hate :lol: ), a svako je od njih predložio konstrukciju "ne da mi se učiti" kao pravi oblik. Nikad nisam čuo tu konstrukciju kod Srba (mada možda grešim, najduže što sam bio u Srbiji je pet meseci).

EDIT: Vidim da je gramatika koju Radioclare citira već objasnila te razlike.


Hahahah. :D :D

Još malo sam čeprkao po internetu i pronašao ovo. Ja iskreno ovde na severu Srbije nikad nisam čuo da se ova konstrukcija koristi sa ovim značenjem, mada po ovome vidim da što se tiče ostatka Srbije to nije tačno.

Sad me zanimaju dve stvari: 1. Da li je ova konstukcija možda ušla u srpski sleng zahvaljujuci uticaju hrvatskog ili bosanskog? 2. Kako bi izvorni govornik hrvatskog protumačio onaj refren i da li je to približno onome što sam napisao kako ja razumem to, tjst. da li i u hrvatskom postoje oba značenja?
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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Daniel N. » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:27 am

Saim wrote:
NIKOLIĆ wrote:Danijele, I'm not sure if this sentence has a slightly different meaning in Croatian, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

To me the phrase "meni se ne da biti komad leda" in this case means something like "I really want to become a block of ice, but I cannot become one because it just isn't possible or something/someone is preventing me from becoming one, or I haven't had the opportunity to become one yet."


Koliko ja znam, ekvivalent konstrukcije ne da mi se + infinitiv je u srpskom jeziku mrzi me da + prezent. Po mom iskustvu Hrvati ne razumeju tu konstrukciju (čak se i jednoj Hrvatici iz ZG učinilo da sam pogrešio kao stranac kad sam nešto rekao tipa mrzi me da učim, pa mi je objasnila da mrzeti zapravo znači to hate :lol: ), a svako je od njih predložio konstrukciju "ne da mi se učiti" kao pravi oblik. Nikad nisam čuo tu konstrukciju kod Srba (mada možda grešim, najduže što sam bio u Srbiji je pet meseci).

EDIT: Vidim da je gramatika koju Radioclare citira već objasnila te razlike.

I know, the construction can have several interpretations. But e.g. mrzi me da ustanem u pet or something like that has only one possible interpretation, I can't force/let/allow myself (to do sth).

For me, there's a very subtle difference in meaning. I'd use pije mi se, povraća mi se, vrti mi se etc for feelings. But ne da mi se or mrzi me da seems to be used with chores and duties, like studying, waking up early.

For me, ne da mi se biti komad leda = I'm destined to become a piece of ice, but it's boring, I can't/won't do it. Boring, painful or humiliating is for me the implication of ne da mi se / mrzi me da

The problem is, I'm not a native Eng speaker. (R. Alexander, the author of Clare's textbook, is also not a native speaker of BCMS). I don't know how to express it simply in English.
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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Saim » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:15 am

I'd say that the closest English equivalent to mrzi me is I can't be bothered, or if you want to be more vulgar I can't be arsed/fucked.
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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Daniel N. » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:01 am

Saim wrote:I'd say that the closest English equivalent to mrzi me is I can't be bothered, or if you want to be more vulgar I can't be arsed/fucked.

Thanks! :o I would never come up with this phrase and that's it! :!:
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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby ryanv4 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:46 am

Radioclare,

My mothers side of the family are all croatian, and I've often felt let down because I haven't been able to join in conversation. Growing up as boy on the South Coast of Australia, there was "no need" to spend time teaching me how to speak it. Now that I'm a bit older (22) I can see the benefits to learning another language, and learning one so important in my families history really intrigues me.

What advice would you give to a person wanting to learn Croatian (essentially from scratch - minus the basics 'kako si') etc, who doesn't have the luxury of constantly being surrounded by people speaking it.

Regards
Ryan
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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Radioclare » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:13 pm

ryanv4 wrote:Radioclare,

My mothers side of the family are all croatian, and I've often felt let down because I haven't been able to join in conversation. Growing up as boy on the South Coast of Australia, there was "no need" to spend time teaching me how to speak it. Now that I'm a bit older (22) I can see the benefits to learning another language, and learning one so important in my families history really intrigues me.

What advice would you give to a person wanting to learn Croatian (essentially from scratch - minus the basics 'kako si') etc, who doesn't have the luxury of constantly being surrounded by people speaking it.


Hi Ryan :)

I guess my general advice would be:

1) Accept that it is going to take time and commitment to learn. I've been learning for five years now and I would say it probably took me three years before I felt like I could communicate in a meaningful way, so it's important to have a strong motivation to keep going. It sounds like you will have a good motivation with your family connections :)

2) Make the best of the resources you can find. There are nowhere near as many books, courses etc for learning Croatian as there are for bigger languages like French and Spanish and in particular there aren't a lot of courses with audio, so you need to work with whatever you can get hold of and persevere with it. Even if you specifically want to learn 'Croatian', which was also my situation, sometimes it just makes sense to compromise and use resources which are for 'Serbian' (or even older ones, which are for 'Serbo-Croatian'). In the long run it honestly doesn't make much difference; I have spoken 'Croatian' in Serbia and Montenegro and been complimented on how good my 'Serbian' is.

As for practical advice when first starting to learn the language...

  • I think 'Teach Yourself Croatian' (Complete Croatian) is the simplest course to start with for total beginners. It introduces the grammar quite gradually and explains it in a way which is easy to understand for English speakers and which doesn't assume that you have prior experience of learning another language. Once I'd finished the book I was able to travel to Croatia and cope with basic tourist situations like buying bus tickets and ordering food in a restaurant.
  • I also recommend the Hippocrene course 'Beginners' Croatian'. The audio that comes with this course is particularly good, because each dialogue is read out once at normal speed so that you can just listen to it and then once really slowly, so that there's time to repeat the sentences after the speaker and try to imitate their pronunciation.
  • I wouldn't recommend 'Colloquial Croatian' unless it is the only book you can get. The explanations are more confusing and not all the answers to the exercises are at the back of the book, which is a big failing in a language course!
  • The most comprehensive textbook in English is 'Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian: A Textbook'. It's a brilliant book but because it is so comprehensive I think it could be quite overwhelming as the first textbook for a beginner learning on their own. I would definitely have struggled with it if I hadn't done the easier TY and Hippocrene courses first.
  • If you prefer learning online, I recommend the website HR4EU which is a relatively new but reputable website for learning Croatian. And for an online grammar to consult, I definitely recommend Daniel N's website, Easy Croatian. He also has a good course of practising vocabulary on Memrise.

Re the problem of not being surrounded by people who speak the language, the things which have made the biggest difference to me are listening to Croatian music and watching Croatian TV. There's a surprising amount of really good music (at least, I was surprised that for a 'small' language there is so much music; I've found it easier to find bands I want to listen to than in German, for example). Even if you can't understand most of the words in songs to start with, I think listening to them is useful because subconsciously you start to absorb how the language sounds. Once I got past the absolute beginner stage, I started trying to watch short children's TV shows in Croatian on Youtube and since then I've got a subscription for a Croatian TV channel and developed an addiction to Croatian telenovelas. The more listening I've done, the easier I've found it to speak when I've travelled in the region.

If you want more specific advice about anything, let me know :)
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